Questions directed to atheists and agnostics only

[snakelegs]

thanks for your neutral comment

i think that you are really seeking the truth

so visit this site it may help you http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm

or download the whole pdf book http://www.islam-guide.com/islam-guide.pdf

i also recommend The Bible, The Qur'an & Science by French prof. Moris bocay ,i have it printed in arabic and i am reading it this days.

i also wanted to tell you something about the FITRA (Remember it) ,here is a hadith of the prophet (peace be upon him)

in the book of sahih bukhary

Narated By Abu- Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on Al-Fitra (Islam) and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian, as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?" Then he recited:
"The religion of pure Islamic Faith (Hanifa),(i.e. to worship none but Allah), The pure Allah's Islamic nature with which He (Allah) has created mankind. Let There be no change in Allah's religion (i.e. to join none in Allah's worship). That is the straight religion; but most of men know not..." (30.30)

and i will also mention that i know that christians in my country must take their childs to the church after they are born for the baby to become a christian (so what was he before becoming christian , it is like they know that he is born a muslim)

also i would like to say that the right fitra in every human leads him to believe the existence of a GOD but if this fitra is corupted then you will see what i see here from some of the members...

i share your belief in the concept of fitra - i just interpret it a bit less narrowly than you. i am not looking for a religion.

 

[Woodrow]

This wasn't directed at me, but if I may comment anyway,



Brainwashed thinking is robotic. Done not because something is right (by which I mean socially constructive) or wrong (by which I mean socially destructie) but just because it is the thing you ae told you are supposed to do.

In my opinion, absent some independent thought, you can not have morality and immorality. You can only have obedience and disobedience. People cloud it with emotionalism and dub it "morality", but it isn't. Morality requires you to draw on your empathy to others and consider what is going to benefit and what is going to harm.

Submission or Nonsubmission to authority has no moral dimension. Blind and unquestioning submission PRECLUDES morality. For in such case one doesn't do something good because its right, one does it because they are commanded to. And if they were commanded something wrong, they'd do it just as readily.

What worries me is when people declare "Right" and "Wrong" as obedience and disobedience to the authority figure. This is scary. And it is a big part of why people fly planes into buildings, drink poisoned cool aid and burn witches.

I believe that we all have an inate sense of what is right and what is wrong, based on simple empathy and self preservation. And I believe that dogma (be it religious or political or otherwise) and social programming (such as trends, fashion and peer pressure) can often subdue this inate sense and enable people to do terrible things they'd otherwise never consider.

Some religious people have hidden their inate moral compass from themselves so well that they wonder if Ateists can have any sense of morality. It scares me when they question this, and makes me ask them if they would become murderous theiving monsters if they lost their faith. Many upon considering this rediscover their inate moral sense. But some others actually respond that they WOULD become such monsters. And that is very scary indeed!

This is not easy for me to explain. I hope the above was coherent.

Sounds like you been brainwashed.




















It can be said that all of our beliefs or disbeliefs are the result of brainwashing. That is not necessarily a bad thing. As we go through life we do not have sufficient time to learn all things. In many area we have to accept the practices of people we admire and respect as a starting point. All any of us can do is accept what we are taught, but stay instilled with the curiosity to always question, and seek to verify that which we believe.

The same reasons an athiest says a religious belief is the result of brainwashing, a religious person can use to say a nonbelief is the result of brainwashing.

 

[Hemoo]

Don't you suppose that some one else may have a different set of values than you? There are those that actually enjoy pain, maybe we should inflict pain on them? Why is it a good thing to treat others the way we wish to be treated? Why not just look out for No. !? What is so wrong with that? Why are the things that you hold as good, good? You say that they are so, you believe them to be so, but what is it that really makes them good beyond your simple belief that they are good?

Is an infant morally wrong because just wants what it wants and doens't think of the things you say may for good morals?

i agree with you on what you said here

and thats why humans must have a standard laws

this laws must come from the creator as the manual comes with the TV and radio and electronic machines.

so we all need to see where is the perfect manual for all humans

 

[Pygoscelis]

The same reasons an athiest says a religious belief is the result of brainwashing, a religious person can use to say a nonbelief is the result of brainwashing.

No, I don't think that follows. Brainwashed by who to believe what? Perhaps it would follow if the nonbeliever put forth a positive belief that there is no God, following the dictates of a anti-religious authority (Communist Russia perhaps?). But refusing to accept the claims of others and to consider things for yourself - that isn't brainwashed. Its the opposite.

 

[Woodrow]

No, I don't think that follows. Brainwashed by who to believe what? Perhaps it would follow if the nonbeliever put forth a positive belief that there is no God, following the dictates of a anti-religious authority (Communist Russia perhaps?). But refusing to accept the claims of others and to consider things for yourself - that isn't brainwashed. Its the opposite.

That can be the case, but it is not necessarily so. A person can be raised in an atheistic setting with atheistic parents and totally removed from all religious concepts. That person will be an atheist, as a result of their environment and not by what they learned on their own. In this case the brainwashing is the prevention of exposing the person to other thoughts, rather then the exposure to a belief.

I suspect that you have experienced exposure to several belief systems and that your choice is a choice based on your own conclusions. But, that is not true for all people who profess to be an atheist.

A person who becomes an atheist as the result of the withholding of information is brainwashed just as much as a person who becomes religious as the result of forcibly receiving information.

To go further I would say that many people on this planet have been brainwashed into their beliefs or non-beliefs, because they have never learned to accept responsibility for their own actions and fail to see that to learn they need to take an active role in their exposures.

 

[Pygoscelis]

A person who becomes an atheist as the result of the withholding of information is brainwashed just as much as a person who becomes religious as the result of forcibly receiving information.

People who are never exposed to religion (not sure such people exist) due to a withholding of information do not become athests. They already were atheists and remain such. That isn't brainwashing. That's just a lack of cultural awreness.

I think I see your point though.

fail to see that to learn they need to take an active role in their exposures.

That may be so for another reason too. They simply may not care to explore theolgy. I've met numerous atheists and cultural (name-only) Christians who are wat they are because its how they were raised, who gave no thought to the actual ideas, and who don't find it important to do so.

I suppose this would be more the atheist / cultural believer than the harcore believer view though. Whereas souls and afterlife matter to a hardcore believer, If you don't believe in a God and afterlife or you believe there is probably a God but if there is he's probably going to be good to you if you were good (instead of if you lived according to such and such a law), you're not likely to care about Souls or afterlives or other religious information/claims/stories.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not sure exactly where exactly, but I think this fits into your conversation somehow. I know a man who is a nominal (in name only) Christian. I can't call him a cultural Christian because he is from Turkey (hardly a Christian culture). He was raised a Christian and so he celebrates Christmas and Easter, but though 25 years old and a university graduate didn't even realize until this week that Easter celebrates Jesus rising from the dead, after dying on the cross. Living in a Muslim country, and attending only on Easter and Christmas, he had managed to miss the message of the cross all these years. Yet he calls himself a Christian, and a Catholic at that.

 

[Trumble]

Yet he calls himself a Christian, and a Catholic at that.

Hardly a unique phenomenon, I suspect. Probably a good half of the English population would unthinkingly write "Church of England" in the appropriate box despite the fact that the last time they visited a church other than for a wedding or funeral was when the vicar dunked them in the water as a baby.

 

[cali dude]

Don't you suppose that some one else may have a different set of values than you?

Yes, that's why I said, treating others the way you would want to be treated is one of the ways, not the only way. Some times, it does make sense to ask yourself whether or not you would wanna be treated the way you treat others.

There are those that actually enjoy pain, maybe we should inflict pain on them?

It really doesn't matter if others enjoy pain but you wouldn't inflict pain on them unless you enjoy pain on yourself.

Why is it a good thing to treat others the way we wish to be treated?

As I said, some times, it's one of the ways to figure out whether or not ours acts will be good.

Why not just look out for No. !? What is so wrong with that?

I am confused what you are trying to say...

Why are the things that you hold as good, good? You say that they are so, you believe them to be so, but what is it that really makes them good beyond your simple belief that they are good?

Because they can not be proven wrong.

Is an infant morally wrong because just wants what it wants and doens't think of the things you say may for good morals?

We should ask ourselves whether or not an infant is really capable of right decision. Is an infant capable of purposely killing? If no, then he can't be immoral...

There is something within us that never lies and that something is soul. But soul is covered with what we call maya. Maya is anything and everything in this world that keeps us from realizing truth from within us. Some times, even religion can be part of maya as it brainwashes people in certain ways and keeps them from thinking logically and making right decisions.

So if we have ability to remove all maya and think logically to search the truth from within us, we will find the truth.

So basically, religion is for those who do not have ability to think logically and they need direction to be on certain path, not necessary the right path. Those, who can think logically, can have high moral values even without following any religion.

Therefore, even atheists and agnostics can have high moral standard as long as they have ability to think logically.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Therefore, even atheists and agnostics can have high moral standard as long as they have ability to think logically.

I have concurred with you all along on this point. I have only been asking question to get you to think deeper, not attack you.

Why is it that you call a good thing good? Why do you not only have an expectation that most others, even those of different cultures would probably also recognize it as good? And deeper still, why do you expect us to understand what you mean by a concept of goodness, unless you see us as having some similar way of thinking with regard to the idea that a thing that might be termed goodness actually exists, as opposed to have also been created out our respective and different cultures?

 

[cali dude]

Why is it that you call a good thing good?

Something that has positive effect or influence on God's creation in general must be good as long as we didn't have to compromise someone's personal rights. Even if something doesn't have major positive contribution to God's creation but has no negative effect on God's creation, it's still better than something that has any negative effect on God's creation.

Why do you not only have an expectation that most others, even those of different cultures would probably also recognize it as good? And deeper still, why do you expect us to understand what you mean by a concept of goodness, unless you see us as having some similar way of thinking with regard to the idea that a thing that might be termed goodness actually exists, as opposed to have also been created out our respective and different cultures?

Like I said, there is soul within us all which is pure and never misleads us. We only need to learn how to listen to soul. Yes sure our personalities are products of culture, religion and social influence that we grow up in and in most cases these are simply obstacles and keep us from listening to the soul. But I am confident that if we learn to remove all of the obstacles. i.e. forget what religion, culture and society say and try to concentrate within ourselves, we will all find the same answer.

So cultural, religious and social influences are superficial but if we try our best and try to find the answer within, we will all find the truth.

 

[barney]

The Prophet would appear to be , if you squint a bit, correct. Flys have antibiotics, in a unworkable form, on their bodies.

Personally i wouldnt submerge a fly in my drink based on his advice due to the millions of harmful bacteria on flys and the hundreds of millions of deaths that disease carrying flys have caused humanity.

But like fungi and sponges and lots of other stuff with antibiotics, he would appear to have been correct. He was (arguably) scientifically wrong about loads of other stuff, so I'm still agnostic, but It certainly makes you think.

 

[Woodrow]

Not sure exactly where exactly, but I think this fits into your conversation somehow. I know a man who is a nominal (in name only) Christian. I can't call him a cultural Christian because he is from Turkey (hardly a Christian culture). He was raised a Christian and so he celebrates Christmas and Easter, but though 25 years old and a university graduate didn't even realize until this week that Easter celebrates Jesus rising from the dead, after dying on the cross. Living in a Muslim country, and attending only on Easter and Christmas, he had managed to miss the message of the cross all these years. Yet he calls himself a Christian, and a Catholic at that.

I do notice you stated the man was Catholic so you may not agree with what I am trying to explain what I'm trying to say.

There are several Christian Denominations that are non-Trinitarian and see Isa(as) as simply a normal human being and served as an example of what we should strive to become.

These are mostly some of the Unitarians, JWs and Mormons. I can not say for certain that all of them believe that but many do.

They do often set up religious education classes and some Christians do not understand the concept of denominations, so figure all Bible classes are the same. It is not that unusual in the less industrialized nations for the adherents of a denomination to practice something that has little resemblance to the denomination they proclaim to be.

 

[Hemoo]

Personally i wouldnt submerge a fly in my drink based on his advice due to the millions of harmful bacteria on flys and the hundreds of millions of deaths that disease carrying flys have caused humanity.

the state of the prophet came to the one who will drink what's in his cup anyway so he advised him to make sure that the cure is also in the drink and not only the disease . and even for muslims its not obligatory to drink it..

He was (arguably) scientifically wrong about loads of other stuff

what other stuff ?? , i am curious :rollseyes

and finally i thank you for sharing your opinions with me ...

 

[barney]

That could take some time.
In Breif
360 joints in the human body
Adam 90 foot tall
The cosmos and earths relationship to it
Volcano's and structure of the earth
Bird flight
Shape of the earth.

Lots of others, If you want to pick one, I'll debate it with you.

 

[Hemoo]

That could take some time.

In Breif
360 joints in the human body
Adam 90 foot tall
The cosmos and earths relationship to it
Volcano's and structure of the earth
Bird flight
Shape of the earth.

Lots of others, If you want to pick one, I'll debate it with you.

First : if you can really debate on those things then i guess you know the arabic language (because both the Quran and Sunna is originaly in Arabic)

so if you can understand arabic and can read what is in the Arabic -Arabic Dictionaries then i am ready for your debates ,cause i only can make you understand what i will say if you understand the arabic refrences that i have.

so if you will then you have two choices

1-to open a new thread and put the Quran or Hadith verses and show me how they contradict with the modern sciences and i will answer you ..

2- you can wait for me for about two weeks or so untill i (If Allah wills) make a thread about the amazing compatibility between Islam and modern science

and then you can tell me your opinions.

Second : i want you to answer my question about

what was your religion or your parents religion before you became agnostic ?? this will help me to be able to make you understand what i will write in our debates

Third : i want you to read what french Dr. Maurice Bucaille said about Islam and science in his book "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"

​

and here is a little quotation from his translated book​

-------------------------
(The Qur'an and Modern Science

Introduction​

The relationship between the Qur'an and science is a priori a surprise, especially when it turns out to be one of harmony and not of discord. A confrontation between a religious book and the secular ideas proclaimed by science is perhaps, in the eyes of many people today, something of a paradox. The majority of today's scientists, with a small number of exceptions of course, are indeed bound up in materialist theories, and have only indifference or contempt for religious questions which they often consider to be founded on legend. In the West moreover, when science and religion are discussed, people are quite willing to mention Judaism and Christianity among the religions referred to, but they hardly ever think of Islam. So many false judgements based on inaccurate ideas have indeed been made about it, that today it is very difficult to form an exact notion of the reality of Islam.
As a prelude to any confrontation between the Islamic Revelation and science, it would seem essential that an outline be given of a religion that is so little known in the West.
The totally erroneous statements made about Islam in the West are sometimes the result of ignorance, and sometimes of systematic denigration. The most serious of all the untruths told about it are however those dealing with facts; for while mistaken opinions are excusable, the presentation of facts running contrary to the reality is not. It is disturbing to read blatant untruths in eminently respectable works written by authors who a priori are highly qualified. The following is an example taken from the Universalis Encyclopedia (Encyclopedia Universalis) vol. 6. Under the heading Gospels (Evangiles) the author alludes to the differences between the latter and the Qur'an: "The evangelists (. . .) do not (. . .), as in the Qur'an, claim to transmit an autobiography that God miraculously dictated to the Prophet . . .". In fact, the Qur'an has nothing to do with an autobiography: it is a preaching; a consultation of even the worst translation would have made that clear to the author. The statement we have quoted is as far from reality as if one were to define a Gospel as an account of an evangelist's life. The person responsible for this untruth about the Qur'an is a professor at the Jesuit Faculty of Theology, Lyon ! The fact that people utter such untruths helps to give a false impression of. the Qur'an and Islam.)end quotation

-------------------------

and here is a link to the full book

and if you really understand islam and you know it contradicts with science then i suggest that you make a reply to what is in this book about islam and science..

 

[wilberhum]

Since this is:

Questions directed to atheists and agnostics only

How many atheists and agnostics think there is anyting to
The Qur'an and Modern Science?
Is there Modern Science there?
Or is it just a case of twisting the statements to fit the answers?

 

[Hemoo]

Since this is:

How many atheists and agnostics think there is anyting to
The Qur'an and Modern Science?
Is there Modern Science there?
Or is it just a case of twisting the statements to fit the answers?

the matter is not what atheists and agnostics think.

but the matter is what the science discoveries say

and i asked before questions and no one replied ,i said :

this fact of the antibiotics that exists on the house fly and exists on its body has only been proved by non-muslim australian scientists here is the link in year 2002 and also this site named www.abc.net.au is not an islamic site its a science and health magazine.

so the question remains how did the prophet (peace be upon him) know that there is a cure(antibiotic) on any part of the house fly ?????:?

and also asked :

here is another verse in the Quran :

chapter 006 verse 125 :-

YUSUFALI translation: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

SHAKIR translation: Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.

so what do you know about the pressure and oxygen levels when you go up higher ??



but no one replied , so who thinks that he is able to reply ,plz open another thread and i will be glad to explain to you what you don't understand

 

[wilberhum]

the matter is not what atheists and agnostics think.

And why not? :?
Remember the title of this thread? :thumbs_up

Questions directed to atheists and agnostics only

Or are you now the directer of who can ask what? :skeleton:

 

[Pygoscelis]

What amazes me is that believers can actually interpret the words of their texts so selectively.

That fly quote you gave us talked about one wing being a curse and the other being a cure. So, is the cursed wing the left one or the right one? No? That is just metaphorical? Yet the Quran *IS* somehow refering to antibiotics?

Then you take a quote saying something about a guy straightening up in good posture and you somehow relate it to air pressure?

Are there not meanwhile dozens of things in the Quran that completey defy science, and are thus interepretted to be metaphorical?