"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

[Hiroshi]

So you agree that those are errors and contradictions.

Thank you.

Copyist errors do appear in passages in the Bible. Almost all of them are of no consequence. But in these examples I do not believe that there are any errors. The only problem is that we don't have all of the information.

 

[Ramadhan]

Copyist errors do appear in passages in the Bible. Almost all of them are of no consequence. But in these examples I do not believe that there are any errors. The only problem is that we don't have all of the information.

I just find it unfathomable that anyone can base their whole life and the salvation of after life on such books having proven errors.
But hey, each to their own...

 

[Ramadhan]

For example, the KJV has many passages that seem to support the trinity doctrine.

1 Timothy 3:16 "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit ..." NIV
1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit ... KJV

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that testify" NIV
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." KJV

Revelation 1:11 "which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches ..."" NIV
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches ..." KJV
(The Alpha and Omega is understood to be God. But it is Jesus speaking in this verse.)

Comparison with a modern version like the NIV reveals that there are errors in these verses in the KJV.

How come those bible versions were so different, and at fundamental levels/passages at that?
Weren't they translated from the same sources? Or were there many different sources to begin with?

And I guess Grace Seeker would say the same about me.

And what makes Grace seekers (or any other non-JW "christians") heretics?

 

[Hiroshi]

Do christians actually believe in the table that was brought down from heaven? as that was a test to the disciples...

Acts 10:9-23 says:
"9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?" 22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.


I think that this must be what the Qur'an refers to as the table from heaven. Peter had this vision to show him that he was not to view non-Jews as in any way "unclean". Although it had been considered wrong for a Jew to eat and associate with uncircumcised men (Acts 11:2), Peter was shown that God was now extending a welcome to the Gentiles to become believers also.

 

[Hiroshi]

I just find it unfathomable that anyone can base their whole life and the salvation of after life on such books having proven errors.
But hey, each to their own...

The original writings of the Bible were not in error. But even with the greatest care, small copyist mistakes were sometimes made. In the case of the Hebrew scriptures this has been estimated to affect less than one word in a thousand. And, as I said, almost all said copyist errors are of no consequence, not affecting anything doctrinal.

If you received an important letter or message from your own father, but one word in a thousand had been wrongly transmitted, would you refuse to examine it?

 

[Hiroshi]

The same feast is mentioned in the Quran but nothing about water being turned into wine

(The Noble Quran, 5:112-116)


Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith." They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

I cant understand how would Jesus(PBUH) turn the water into the poison of madness which is clearly prohibited in the bible

Do not drink wine nor strong drink (Leviticus 10:9)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Pro&chapter=20&verse=1&version=kjv
Wine is a mocker, strong drink raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)
*****dom and wine take away the heart. (Hosea 4:11)

Thanks for the references. The Bible does warn against drunkenness. But it doesn't prohibit alcohol use in moderation. Leviticus 10:9 is telling Aaron and his sons not to drink alcohol only while serving at the Tent of Meeting and offering incense to God.

 

[Ramadhan]

If you received an important letter or message from your own father, but one word in a thousand had been wrongly transmitted, would you refuse to examine it?

I have my opinion that God has a higher standard (much higher in fact) than my own father.
If it's a true message from God, I don't expect it to be full of errors and contradictions.

But you seem content to have god that send you error-ridden message, just like your father.
To each their won, I guess.


Oh, by the way, My dad (when he was alive) was very effective when he wrote letters to me. He did not confuse me with different numbers, days, amounts of money transmitted etc in his letters.

 

[Hiroshi]

How come those bible versions were so different, and at fundamental levels/passages at that?
Weren't they translated from the same sources? Or were there many different sources to begin with?

I will try to research all of your questions.

Please refer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum#Erasmus_and_the_Textus_Receptus

Erasmus was the man who compiled the "Textus Receptus" which is the Greek text on which the KJV is based. In his early editions of the Greek text he omitted the extra words that appear in 1 John 5:7. These words had only appeared in the Latin text of the New Testament during the Middle Ages. But there was an outcry over this. Many believed that the omission of these words would threaten the trinity doctrine.

To quote from the link, this is what then happened:
"Erasmus is said to have replied to these critics that the Comma did not occur in any of the Greek manuscripts he could find, but that he would add it to future editions if it appeared in a single Greek manuscript. Such a manuscript was subsequently concocted by a Franciscan, and Erasmus, true to his word, added the Comma to his 1522 edition, but with a lengthy footnote setting out his suspicion that the manuscript had been prepared expressly to confute him. This third edition became a chief source for the King James Version, thereby fixing the Comma firmly in the English-language scriptures for centuries."

 

[Grace Seeker]

The same feast is mentioned in the Quran but nothing about water being turned into wine

So, the Qur'an leaves things out. Christians have known this for years, for instance it leaves out Jesus' biggest miracle, the resurrection.

I just find it unfathomable that anyone can base their whole life and the salvation of after life on such books having proven errors.
But hey, each to their own...

I agree. See note above.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So which scriptures are you using?
I presume you are not using kjv?
In what way is your scriptures different from kjv?

Do you find people who use kjv, like grace seeker, heretics?
Is grace seeker christian, according to you?

naidamar, you consistently present things as true that simply are not true. While I do on occassion use the KJV, my views with regard to it's quality are roughly the same as Hiroshi. You will find that I do most of my quoting of biblical texts from the NIV, which I think is a better translation, but not necessarily perfect either. In fact, I would argue that no translation can be perfect simply because it is a translation. But that doesn't mean that people who cannot read the original texts and read only translations are reading something that is any less the Word of God than if they had the original autographs in their hands.

 

[Ramadhan]

I agree. See note above.

Hiroshi just showed me something, the scriptures that you are using is filled with errors, and turned out it did not have "trinity" in the books...

But if you are okay with that, heyy....

 

[Ramadhan]

double post..please delete

 

[Hiroshi]

naidamar, you consistently present things as true that simply are not true. While I do on occassion use the KJV, my views with regard to it's quality are roughly the same as Hiroshi.

I'm glad that we agree here.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have my opinion that God has a higher standard (much higher in fact) than my own father.
If it's a true message from God, I don't expect it to be full of errors and contradictions.

But you seem content to have god that send you error-ridden message, just like your father.
To each their won, I guess.


Oh, by the way, My dad (when he was alive) was very effective when he wrote letters to me. He did not confuse me with different numbers, days, amounts of money transmitted etc in his letters.

You seem not to take the same care that your father did. I believe the correct phrase is "to each their own", not "won". Shall we now quit reading anything you have to say because you have been shown to assert as true things that are not true and write things that do not communicate the ideas you might be trying to communicate clearly? Shall we hold you and your messages to the same standards that you expect of the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi just showed me something, the scriptures that you are using is filled with errors, and turned out it did not have "trinity" in the books...

But if you are okay with that, heyy....

On last thing. If you check out that link, refer to my quote and then read further, you will see that some critics have questioned the story of Erasmus and his motives. But there is no doubt that he is the one responsible for those words (known as the "Johannine Comma") at 1 John 5:7 in the KJV today.

 

[Ramadhan]

While I do on occassion use the KJV, my views with regard to it's quality are roughly the same as Hiroshi. You will find that I do most of my quoting of biblical texts from the NIV, which I think is a better translation, but not necessarily perfect either.

Whats wrong with KJV?
so people who have been using for centuries were in fact misguided?
What makes NIV suddenly the bible en vogue?
Do you think there will be more "perfect" version in the future?
What kind of changes can we expect from future bibles?

In fact, I would argue that no translation can be perfect simply because it is a translation

No translation is perfect, eh?
very unusual coming from a christian.
I will have to bookmark this for future reference

 

[Ramadhan]

You seem not to take the same care that your father did. I believe the correct phrase is "to each their own", not "won". Shall we now quit reading anything you have to say because you have been shown to assert as true things that are not true and write things that do not communicate the ideas you might be trying to communicate clearly?

Only if you consider me God who gave errors-ridden message, then yes..

 

[Grace Seeker]

Whats wrong with KJV?
so people who have been using for centuries were in fact misguided?
What makes NIV suddenly the bible en vogue?
Do you think there will be more "perfect" version in the future?
What kind of changes can we expect from future bibles?

As the English language evolves I expect there to be new translations made in order to put the language of the Bible into the most modern and current venacular in use at the time. That is the whole purpose of a transation.

No. Not only will there never be a "perfect" translation of the Bible, but there can be no "perfect" translation of any other document. Consider the simple phrase, "mi casa es su casa". Which is the better translation, "My house is your house." or "My home is your home."? They are not equivalent concepts. In English those we sometimes use the term "house" and "home" interchangeably, they do carry different connotations to the native English speaker. But in Spanish, "casa" carries both of those connotations simultaneously. Hence, it is impossible to translate the Spanish phrase "Mi casa es su casa." into English perfectly. The issue, how do you translate not just the word but the meaning behind the words from the original texts into some other language, over and over again when translating any document, including the scriptures. And it is for this reason, even if there were no others, that I maintain that there will never be a perfect translation of the Bible, just as you recognize that no translation of the Qur'an is actually the Qur'an.

 

[Ramadhan]

Consider the simple phrase, "mi casa es su casa". Which is the better translation, "My house is your house." or "My home is your home."?

Unfortunately, "my house is your house" does not have the same impact as "jesus is our god".

But hey, that's only my opinion....

 

[جوري]

Acts 10:9-23 says:
"9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?" 22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.


I think that this must be what the Qur'an refers to as the table from heaven. Peter had this vision to show him that he was not to view non-Jews as in any way "unclean". Although it had been considered wrong for a Jew to eat and associate with uncircumcised men (Acts 11:2), Peter was shown that God was now extending a welcome to the Gentiles to become believers also.

That seems like a nice addendum (including all pigs) whatever the case, that isn't the Islamic view -- it had nothing to do with allowances of pigs or not or exclusively to peter.. It was a sign to the disciples from God, and when a great sign such as this is bestowed upon a select few, those of them who deny God thereafter have the most grievous punishment in hell. Like any folks before who were given a great sign, parting of the red sea or the beast that Saleh had as a sign to his people...

The 'last supper table' was one sent from heaven as a sign to the disciples not an allowance for pig eating or a welcome to the gentiles given that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel!

all the best