"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

[Insaanah]

Greetings Hiroshi,

A couple of questions popped into my head, so I hope you don't mind if I ask.

I have read that active Jehovahs Witnesses have to log at weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall they attend, how many hours they have spent on proselytizing/missionary work, how many converts they have made etc, and that this data is forwarded monthly by each Kingdom Hall to the international Jehovah's Witness Headquarters in Brooklyn. Is this the case?

If so, do you log the time you spend on your posts on this forum as part of that? Although you are not allowed to proselytize here, you do tell us what the Jehovahs Witnesses believe, when we ask, as in this thread, and articulate your beliefs in others. Do you log that?

Peace.

 

[IAmZamzam]

God's purpose is so sure to be fulfilled that in many cases events are spoken about as if they have already happened.

Do I have to respond to this?? Really?? Is there anything I could say to someone who would put forth that argument that would make any difference at all???

Revelation is one of the most contested books of the Bible, both in terms of whether or not it should be trusted (by anyone who isn't a complete inerrantist) and what the holy heck it's even talking about in the first place. It is more than just temporally disjointed. Here is the full context of the passage from Hosea, which like just about all of the so-called Messianic prophecies is always suspiciously missing:

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called them, the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and burning incense to idols. Yet it was I who taught E'phraim to walk, I took them up in my arms; but they did not know that I healed them. I led them with cords of compassion, with the bands of love, and I became to them as one, who eases the yoke on their jaws, and I bent down to them and fed them.

And only after that does it actually start prophesying—about entirely different things:

They shall return to the land of Egypt, and Assyria shall be their king, because they have refused to return to me. The sword shall rage against their cities, consume the bars of their gates, and devour them in their fortresses. My people are bent on turning away from me; so they are appointed to the yoke, and none shall remove it. How can I give you up, O E'phraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! How can I make you like Admah! How can I treat you like Zeboi'im! My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy E'phraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come to destroy. They shall go after the LORD, he will roar like a lion; yea, he will roar, and his sons shall come trembling from the west; they shall come trembling like birds from Egypt, and like doves from the land of Assyria; and I will return them to their homes, says the LORD. E'phraim has encompassed me with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit; but Judah is still known by God, and is faithful to the Holy One.

I’m surprised you didn’t take the “they shall go after the LORD” part out of context too. Probably you’re still planning on it. I can just fire right back with an out-of-context "I am God and not man."

 

[Hiroshi]

Greetings Hiroshi,

A couple of questions popped into my head, so I hope you don't mind if I ask.

I have read that active Jehovahs Witnesses have to log at weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall they attend, how many hours they have spent on proselytizing/missionary work, how many converts they have made etc, and that this data is forwarded monthly by each Kingdom Hall to the international Jehovah's Witness Headquarters in Brooklyn. Is this the case?

If so, do you log the time you spend on your posts on this forum as part of that? Although you are not allowed to proselytize here, you do tell us what the Jehovahs Witnesses believe, when we ask, as in this thread, and articulate your beliefs in others. Do you log that?

Peace.

No. I'm trying to make friends here, that's all.

 

[Hiroshi]

Do I have to respond to this?? Really?? Is there anything I could say to someone who would put forth that argument that would make any difference at all???

Revelation is one of the most contested books of the Bible, both in terms of whether or not it should be trusted (by anyone who isn't a complete inerrantist) and what the holy heck it's even talking about in the first place.

Jesus spoke many things in riddles or parables. Many of the people in the crowds that listened to him had little interest to find out what he was talking about and went away in ignorance. But his own disciples were keen to know what things Jesus was teaching and later questioned him. Jesus was happy to explain the parables to those who really wanted to learn.

The book of Revelation can be understood in the light of other books in the Bible. For example, the beast with the number 666 corresponds to the kingdoms of Daniel's prophecy which are represented by beasts. But if you are inclined to dismiss Revelation without even wanting to know what it says then you will never understand it's message.

 

[IAmZamzam]

How convenient that you totally overlook my exposure of the Hosea thing. Forget about Revelation.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Greetings Hiroshi,

A couple of questions popped into my head, so I hope you don't mind if I ask.

I have read that active Jehovahs Witnesses have to log at weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall they attend, how many hours they have spent on proselytizing/missionary work, how many converts they have made etc, and that this data is forwarded monthly by each Kingdom Hall to the international Jehovah's Witness Headquarters in Brooklyn. Is this the case?

If so, do you log the time you spend on your posts on this forum as part of that? Although you are not allowed to proselytize here, you do tell us what the Jehovahs Witnesses believe, when we ask, as in this thread, and articulate your beliefs in others. Do you log that?

Peace.

Hey, I would count it. ;D

Why not? I would find it extremely hard to go door to door in this day and age seeking converts. I would think that participating on the forum might be as effective as some of the door to door contacting.

I work with a JW lady and she likes to take Fridays off so she can proselyte. We don't really have a problem with it, when things are slow we even let her sit and read her literature. It is better than having people sit and idly chatter. It tends to keep her in a serious frame of mind.

But OTOH we don't allow proselytizing on the job either.
:wa:

 

[Hiroshi]

How convenient that you totally overlook my exposure of the Hosea thing. Forget about Revelation.

Well, often in a passage of scripture there is a brief mention of something that has a special cryptic meaning. It is true that the main subject of that part of Hosea had to do with the details of what would happen to the Israelites as punishment from God. But those words in Hosea 11:1 "out of Egypt I called my son" do apply to Jesus.

Similarly Psalms chapter 16 has as its main subject the prayer of king David in his affliction. But there is a curious sentence in verse 10: "For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave." (New Living Translation). David seems to be speaking about himself here. And yet he died and was buried and he did indeed rot in the grave. So the words in verse 10 could not apply to David. In fact the words apply to Jesus as is explained in Acts 2:29-31: "Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave."

So here we have a passage that is mainly concerned with David's prayer. But there in verse 10 is a mention of something that is clearly a Messianic prophecy.

 

[Hiroshi]

Hey, I would count it. ;D

Why not? I would find it extremely hard to go door to door in this day and age seeking converts. I would think that participating on the forum might be as effective as some of the door to door contacting.

I work with a JW lady and she likes to take Fridays off so she can proselyte. We don't really have a problem with it, when things are slow we even let her sit and read her literature. It is better than having people sit and idly chatter. It tends to keep her in a serious frame of mind.

But OTOH we don't allow proselytizing on the job either.
:wa:

Where is that? In America? Going from door to door is a challenge especially for someone like me who is naturally shy. But it is a nice way and an effective way to get the Bible's message to people. Jesus' disciples preached from house to house (Acts 20:20).

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Where is that? In America? Going from door to door is a challenge especially for someone like me who is naturally shy. But it is a nice way and an effective way to get the Bible's message to people. Jesus' disciples preached from house to house (Acts 20:20).

Yeah, I'm in the USA, pacific Northwest. I feel for you going door to door. When I was a Mormon I did that for two years as a missionary. I really hated it. I'm fairly shy too.

The JWs were more effective than we were in their proselyting efforts. I think Mormons have a more difficult message for people to accept than the one taught by Jehovah's Witnesses.

I've had employees and clients who were JW and I always got along great with them. But I always felt like they had to isolate themselves on some level because of what other people in their congregation might think. There was always a bit of a wall there if you weren't JW.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Well, often in a passage of scripture there is a brief mention of something that has a special cryptic meaning. It is true that the main subject of that part of Hosea had to do with the details of what would happen to the Israelites as punishment from God. But those words in Hosea 11:1 "out of Egypt I called my son" do apply to Jesus.

Similarly Psalms chapter 16 has as its main subject the prayer of king David in his affliction. But there is a curious sentence in verse 10: "For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave." (New Living Translation). David seems to be speaking about himself here. And yet he died and was buried and he did indeed rot in the grave. So the words in verse 10 could not apply to David. In fact the words apply to Jesus as is explained in Acts 2:29-31: "Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave."

So here we have a passage that is mainly concerned with David's prayer. But there in verse 10 is a mention of something that is clearly a Messianic prophecy.

Why should I believe that?? What reason have I??

 

[Hiroshi]

Why should I believe that?? What reason have I??

Sura 4:163 says: "to David We gave the Psalms." Why do you reject what Allah has given?

 

[Hiroshi]

Yeah, I'm in the USA, pacific Northwest. I feel for you going door to door. When I was a Mormon I did that for two years as a missionary. I really hated it. I'm fairly shy too.

The JWs were more effective than we were in their proselyting efforts. I think Mormons have a more difficult message for people to accept than the one taught by Jehovah's Witnesses.

I've had employees and clients who were JW and I always got along great with them. But I always felt like they had to isolate themselves on some level because of what other people in their congregation might think. There was always a bit of a wall there if you weren't JW.

Well, that's nice to hear. I'm glad that you got on well with them. I have had a few Mormons call at my door and I was interested to know what they had to say. And they gave me the book of Mormon to read. It had beautiful illustrations.

What I found curious was that the book of Mormon is said to be miraculously translated from golden plates. But whole passages in it are word for word quotes from the King James Bible.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Sura 4:163 says: "to David We gave the Psalms." Why do you reject what Allah has given?

What I meant was, why should I believe this oddly convenient notion that even though in context the "Messianic prophecies" obviously do not mean anything Messianic at all, somehow they still do? I've hardly ever heard such a weak support or such an obvious rationalization for anything. Christians yet wonder why people don't believe in Christianity with all these "propechies" about, even though they admit that nothing about the context of the passages suggests such a prophecy! Do you think that we all use the same slanted, twisted exegetical logic ourselves? Does it seem so strange to you that context should matter to us? Did I not remind you that I could do the same thing to prove my own point? If you can isolate that opening verse from the Hosea passage, I can isolate the verse from the same passage about God not being a man.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

What I found curious was that the book of Mormon is said to be miraculously translated from golden plates. But whole passages in it are word for word quotes from the King James Bible.

Bingo. Curious indeed. And it gets curiouser and curiouser the more you study it.

 

[Hiroshi]

What I meant was, why should I believe this oddly convenient notion that even though in context the "Messianic prophecies" obviously do not mean anything Messianic at all, somehow they still do? I've hardly ever heard such a weak support or such an obvious rationalization for anything. Christians yet wonder why people don't believe in Christianity with all these "propechies" about, even though they admit that nothing about the context of the passages suggests such a prophecy! Do you think that we all use the same slanted, twisted exegetical logic ourselves? Does it seem so strange to you that context should matter to us? Did I not remind you that I could do the same thing to prove my own point? If you can isolate that opening verse from the Hosea passage, I can isolate the verse from the same passage about God not being a man.

Well, Muslims say that Muhammad is prophetically mentioned by name in Song of Solomon 5:16 "Hikko mamittankim we kullo Muhammadim" although the surrounding context says nothing about a prophet.

I agree with you that God is not a man.

 

[Hiroshi]

Bingo. Curious indeed. And it gets curiouser and curiouser the more you study it.

Is that why you became a Muslim instead?

 

[Woodrow]

Another Question, I notice on the JW sites that the official number of JWs living world wide is 7.5 million. The USA has 1.2 Million making it the country with the largest number. Do you have any explanation as to why the world wide Number of JWs is so low and why about 1/4 of them live in the USA?

 

[IAmZamzam]

Well, Muslims say that Muhammad is prophetically mentioned by name in Song of Solomon 5:16 "Hikko mamittankim we kullo Muhammadim" although the surrounding context says nothing about a prophet.

You're making an overgeneralization—although I think admirably unintentionally and innocently, which is refreshing considering some of the people and rhetoric I have to deal with around here. It is not part of Islamic doctrine to think any particular thing about the Song of Songs, and I never said anything about it whatsoever so again you're kind of putting words in my mouth. In fact, with one possible exception I'm not at all sure that a lot of the "Muhammad (P) in the Bible" theories weren't from the start strictly invented by da'is with their own forced reinterpretations in very much the same way that the “Messianic” prophecies were just the forced reinterpretations of Christians. (Even the Deuteronomy 18 thing is still tempered by the x-factor that is the corruption of the Bible.) So you may have made a better and truer point than you will ever know, actually.

I agree with you that God is not a man.

Do you indeed??

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Is that why you became a Muslim instead?

I basically studied my way out of Mormonism over 10 years ago. It took a long time for me to embrace anything else although I looked at a lot of different religions over the years.

 

[جوري]

I looked at a lot of different religions over the years.

That is precisely why they say ''Islam is a thinking man's religion'' truly captures all conquered and conqueror alike.. as I was reading today of the raid of the Mongols and thought Genghis must be rolling in his grave knowing his own offspring not only embraced Islam but out of them came the mamluks and the spread into southeast Asia..Usually the conquerors impose their beliefs on the conquered not succumb to those of the indigenous people....