Qur'an or the Bible?

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Obviously you enjoy writing voluminous nonsocial pieces but don't have the time to read, discern or process the replies afforded you given that you keep writing the same testimonies over and over. Amongst other things it is disrespectful.
Now regardless of your very strong assertions erroneous as they're.. I am still for instance waiting for the results from that christian quiz I provided, say the bible has no errors, what exactly does that prove? So what? Many literature books are accurate it doesn't make them divine, or divinely inspired. In fact I find Buddhism, or Hinduism to be on equal footing with christianity in terms of paganism but sans the suckling dying god. At least they don't proclaim to be monotheistic or at least there's some god in charge while one god dies..
what exactly were you hoping you'd accomplish here because whatever it is you're doing it very poorly!

best,
 
More on the miraculous features of the Quran which I don't wish to amend in my previous post since the new guy doesn't bother read anyway:
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Reflections on the Medical Miracles of the Holy Quran . by Dr. Sharif Kaf Al Ghazal
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Embryology and Human Creation between Quran & Science . by Dr. Sharif Kaf Al-Ghazal
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The Quran's description of the internal and external features of the fetus[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]A Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Quran[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The amazing Quran (by Gary Miller ): Embryology, honey,and other scientific aspects in Quran[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The sensory character of the skin (in Quran) : [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Appearance of disease due to spread of lewdness [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Quran on the cerebrum [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Newly discovered facts reveled by Quran and Hadith.[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Foreword By the Commission on Scientific Signs of Quran and Sunnah[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]What is the Quran all about?[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Koran and Biomedical Sciences By:Muhammed Asadi[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Quran and Modern Science Taken from "The Origin of Man", by Dr. Maurice Bucaille.[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Quran and Scientific knowledge[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Quran on Human Embryology![/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Quran On The Cerebrum![/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Quran On New Diseases![/TD]
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[TD]Wonders of Qur'an. By Nasir Hussain Peerzadah [/TD]
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[TD]Qur'an and Modern Science. By Dr. Zakir Naik [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Statistical miracles in the Quran. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Does the Qur’an Plagiarise Ancient Greek Embryology? A Review. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]MUSCULO-SKELETAL SYSTEM and PHYSICAL EXERCISE in the Quran. by Prof. Dr.Omar Hassan Kasule. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Relief of Pain - A Medical Discovery.
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Forelock !
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The final of Personality.
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[TD="colspan: 2"]A boy or a girl ?
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The condition of chest in the Higher layers of space.
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The Skin.
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The psychological influence of Quran on non-Muslims (Arabic text)
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Newly Discovered Scientific Facts Revealed In The Quran And Authentic Sunnah .
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Winter Depression and Prayer.
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Studies Show Fajr Prayer is Healthy.
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The Healing Power of Prayer Beads.[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The Relevance of the Quran to Modern Science
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The Quran and Modern Science [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]THE QURAN AND MODERN SCIENCE : Extracted from the Book : The Bible, The Quran and Science . (By: Maurice Bucaille) : [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Read and Think .
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Xenotransplantation and Genetic Engineering: A Qur'anic Perspective: Look At the Ears!
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Studies Show Fajr Prayer is Healthy[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Night Prayer and the Human Body Clock[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] The Extraordinary Design of the Eye[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Creation of man ( Stage 1) ( Stage 2) . [/TD]
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All of your claims are false!!!!!
Is this assertion day? No, all yours are. Did I win?



The Bible has 40 authors and 66 books and many versions that have beenchanged so that is why its larger, the Quran is the word of God. I take God'swords over thousands or millions of men's words.
The Quran has about 80,000 words. The Bible has about 750,000. Are yousuggesting someone somewhere invented and added 600,000 words to the Bible soChristians could claim it is bigger? The Dead sea scrolls and many other linesof evidence easily show the Bible has been changed little over the years. Whereit has been added to or mistakes made are 95% known and are indicated in allmajor modern Bibles. The issue is not an unknown one. Even by Ehrman's criticalnumbers it has approx. 5% scribal error and 95% of them known and indicated.The theologian's average is about 99.5%. I use Ehrman's numbers to limitcontention.

The Bible do have myth stories, let me list some myths for you
1. The Bible says Adam and Eve's only children were two boys
That has nothingto do with how many Children they had. The Bible gives genealogies to trace ancestryor make a specific point. It never intends and no one until now has ever hintedthat if it does not contain a name that person never existed or that it is acensus of everyone ever born. First that is irrational, second it has nothingto do with myth (whether wrong or right). Scholars claim the infancy stories ofChrist speaking is a myth because it's origins are well known to be withinheretical authors and have mythical sources. What extra biblical myth describeshow many children that Adam had and existed before Moses recorded the Pentateuch?I gave sources for Quranic myths where are yours?

2. Men have fewer ribs than women
This is stated no where in theBible. The concept (whether symbolic or literal I do not know, is that Eve'srib grew back). I have read medical claims that the lower rib bones are one ofteh few bones that can regenerate but hat was not your claim. Your claim wasthat it was from myth. What myth was it from? Again I gave examples (very fewof the total known) of the Quran's myths, where are yours?

3. The Bible teaches that the earth is flat
This one is simply wrong. I have debated this one quite a bit. TheBible states teh shape of the Earth in three different ways. None mean flat. Inancient Hebrew it meant circular, as they had no word meaning large sphere. Inlater Hebrew it stated that it is circular independent of location (from everyspot on Earth it was circular). That results in a sphere no matter how youinterpret it. In Greek it stated the horizon as being an arch. There are manyscriptures that indicate the Earth as being circular. The early ones are alittle vague, the latter ones are not. However compared to the 7 heavens and 7earths of the Quran even Moses was a better cosmologist.

Some of the things are similar or stories are similar b/c the Quran saysthe things that the other revelations says and corrects them and who knowsbetter than God
That might explain a few things if very generous. It however would notexplain the fact that Muhammad gets virtually every Biblical story differentthan the authors far closer to events that he was. You could still assume hewas right many times and in spite of what is historically known. However thereare many cases where he can't possibly be right. His claim about whatChristians believe the trinity to be is simply wrong. No significant group ofChristian ever believed Mary was part of the Trinity. Muhammad placescrucifixion in history far prior to the point it was known to have been used.We know where the stories of Jesus breathing life into clay birds comes fromand it was not God. It is not simply that his claims are different from theBible, it is that scholars know the sources of many of them. There were groupsin Israel that created false gospels and were exiled because of it. Manymigrated to Arabia and were known to teach their "other" gospels justprior to Muhammad’s arrival on the scene. When you can follow geographical,historical, and even grammatical mistakes from their roots and sometimes findthem almost word for word in the Quran there is no defense possible for theirbeing true.

Wrong claim again, the Bible is not even 80% correct, there are so manycontradictions in the Bible , even one site listed 500
The Quran is not flawed, it is perfect since it is the word of God
I swear if simply claiming something without any facts made anythingtrue then I my claims might be in trouble. Do you actually think that the fact(if it is) that a site claims 500 contradictions is evidence that they actuallyexist? Is this alone an argument? I personally have on file (and will use themwhen I have enough posts to allow links to be given) at least a hundred entirepapers written (many times by Arab scholars) that claim Muhammad was a falseprophet. Is it therefor true because I stated it was? I have never seen so manyassumptions used as arguments before.

Nope the Bible don't test the Quran but the Quran tests people to evenproduce 1 verse like that of the Quran, the Bible didn't talk about the Quran
[offensive, baseless remarks removed]


Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the likeof this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to eachother assistants. “Quran 17:88
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant[Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnessesother than Allah , if you should be truthful.Quran 2:23
I am aware ofthis surah and agree it is in the Quran.
[offensive, baseless remarks removed]
 
By the way can anyone tell me how to edit my posts?
You might have to be a full member before you can edit your posts. For that you need 50 posts (if I'm not mistaken)
 
[/FONT said:
العنود;1586972]
I have no idea what this nonsense means? In fact math is borne out of ourimagination but I don't think you've the capabilities to play around with therules not that the possibilities don't exist!
I skipped a few posts to get to this one because it was so bizarre.Mathematics is a language that describes the objective mechanisms of naturallaw. I have a math degree and work in a DOD lab. We did not invent mathematicswe discovered it. Newton (probably the greatest of them all) said he felt likea child that noticed a pebble on the beach and ignored the ocean. (Paraphrasedof course). He did not say he invented a pebble and ignored what theimaginations of others created. If you meant the language math is assigned forcomprehension then I agree but that has nothing to do with what I claimed. Ifyou claim that mathematical concepts are subjective constructs then any mathmajor will tell you are simply incorrect. The point slope relationship of alinear equation would still exist even if humans did not. However math was noteven the subject.



What evidence is that? your testimony? The evidence suggests stronglyotherwise.
one book is a confused mess of a self-immolating man god and the other aguidance to mankind which covers every aspect of man's life and in and ofitself has many miraculous features that it is the foundation upon which manyother things were borne, from inheritance laws, to economic theories and evenmodern day grammar.
I gave a mathematic allegory that was a complaint against assertionswith no evidence. You then gave an incorrect mathematical critique ofmathematics, then a complaint against assertions, and then made several newassertions. I am a little stunned. I will give you credit for at leastsupplying some actual categories where these assertions are claimed to apply.That is at least progress. I gave as many specific examples as my currentinability to post links justified so I will ignore your complaint. I gave actualnames of the works Muhammad borrowed, etc...

1. Millions of Bible's are identical so your statement is untrue, though notsomething I claimed so in no need of defense.
2. The reason that Uthman burned all other copies of the Quran is that Islamwas tearing its self apart because of Quranic division and there currentlyexists vast discrepancies between Quranic revisions so your point ishypocritical.
3. The extraordinary textual tradition of the Bible allows virtually all errorsto be well known and indicated (language and interpretation exists in a books,however the Quran's textual history ends at Uthman and is politicallycontrolled so the extent of its corruption can't ever be known. It is a textualblack hole.
4. As for miracles. Biblical prophets did them. Muhammad refused. There isnothing miraculous about the Quran its self. IMO there is nothing that can evenbe suggested to be. It is not even good literature according to countlessliterary scholars.
5. As far as grammaticism goes. I have no claims about the Bible nor God thatdemand I defend the grammatical accuracy of every translation you wish to challenge.However the Quran claims to be perfect Arabic and is known to even Arabicscholars to contain almost 200 non-Arabic words and many examples of grammaticalmistakes. Muhammad really doomed the Quran by claiming it to always be perfect.It isn't, the proposition isn't even debatable. The Bible only guarantees the"perfection" of revelation not every interpretation ever made. Theobvious fact the Quran has not been perfect is Uthman's need to burn hiscompetitor's, including trying to burn the original he used. Anyone who reviewsmodern Quran's will see that many differ and so all can't be perfect. I am outof time for now, sorry.


In fact the Quran is full of miracles:
I can yell miracle if my toast looks like Mary if I wish. However even when Muhammd was asked to do miracles AS THE PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE had done he refused and admitted he couldn't. To claim a "prophet" that could not do miracles wrote a book that is one seems quite desperate in my opinion. Not to mention no prophies beyond the one about Rome which a preschool Child should have known and was so vague that half of Romes battles could be fit into it.

 

You might have to be a full member before you can edit your posts. For that you need 50 posts (if I'm not mistaken)
Well that is depressing. I make too many grammatical mistakes to wait that long. Thanks for the information, however I can't even imagine what the restriction on fixing mistakes would be.
 
The Quran has about 80,000 words. The Bible has about 750,000. Are yousuggesting someone somewhere invented and added 600,000 words to the Bible soChristians could claim it is bigger? The Dead sea scrolls and many other linesof evidence easily show the Bible has been changed little over the years. Whereit has been added to or mistakes made are 95% known and are indicated in allmajor modern Bibles. The issue is not an unknown one. Even by Ehrman's criticalnumbers it has approx. 5% scribal error and 95% of them known and indicated.The theologian's average is about 99.5%. I use Ehrman's numbers to limitcontention.

the NT has 260 chapters, 7958 verses

http://www.deafmissions.com/tally/bkchptrvrs.html

the Quran has 114 chapters and 6236 verses
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/QuranStats.htm

so I have no idea where you are getting your stats from, however, two words in Arabic can translate to up to seven in English if we are looking purely for word count.. have a look at suret an'nazi3at for quick reference.. two words in Arabic are translated to 7 words in English, and that's because Arabic is refined & eloquent where English is clunky and the same idea holds true given what Jesus spoke to what you're speaking or even believing!

I don't think any Muslim would compare the Quran with the bible, simply the Quran is the unadulterated word of God, free of errors. Whereas the bible is the compilation of men with many additives and preservatives along the way.. if anything in Islam can be made akin to the bible it would be the compendium of ahadiths, and those are volumes upon volumes and still have a proper chain of Isnad that can be traced back, nothing of the sort exists in the bible.. So if we're going to compare Ahadith alone:
1- Sahih Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan. 2- Sahih Muslim translated by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui. 3- Sunan Abu-Dawud translated by Prof. Ahmad Hasan. 4- Malik's Muwatta translated by Aisha Abdarahman at-Tarjumana and Yaqub Johnson.

it would dwarf even if you put the OT for padding and let's face it, the OT believers want nothing to do with your god nor do you actually prescribe to the god of the OT!

try for more facts less fiction and less emotions. As stated if volume or word count alone counts for anything then history is full of literature, which is more meaningful.

best,
 
Ifyou claim that mathematical concepts are subjective
I have claimed that even math is borne of our imagination. Do you dispute that?
If you're as you proclaim with brilliant math skills then it is a conundrum how it is you subscribe to a manogod who is supposed to be indivisible and yet in the same breath proclaim that the three god of christianity is one & monotheistic?..


Millions of Bible's are identical so your statement is untrue
I take it you still didn't take the christian quiz? No matter I'll post it and then everyone can have a look at your deception first hand. We're aware that with Gothenburg's printing press many volumes of erroneous bibles were printed. So again what's your point? You're about word count that doesn't exist and math that doesn't add up and miracles that never happened? and events with multiple narratives contradictory to one another and yet expect us to buy into its 'divine miraculous nature'? Thanks but no thanks!
Frankly I don't see how anyone can risk their mortal soul on a god that couldn't even save himself!


h. However even when Muhammd was asked to do miracles AS THE PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE had done he refused and admitted he couldn't
lol where did you get that? your preacher? many miracles were performed during the time of the prophet by him directly and witnessed even by non-Muslims, if that an indication it is meant for the people of his time since most miracles die with their prophets and all that remains are funny jokes exchanged by atheists. We're left with one living miracle in the form of the noble Quran. And until we see proper scholarship not perfuse logorrhea can you come discuss the topic at length. I am not interested in your emotions or assertions or even your brand of logic. I'd be worried having a math teacher who can't do basic additions and reconcile them with a universal concept!
If people weren't taken by the Quran at a time when the Arabic language was supreme and the poets competed with their scrolls hung on the kaaba then we wouldn't have 1.8 billion Muslims today & fastest growing especially amongst intellectuals whereas christianity dies day by day that in a pathetic attempt the catholic pope decided Atheists aren't going to hell might he make the religion more attractive to them and then retracted it a few days later. In fact christianity shrinks by about 1% a year in Europe. I think they're finding out that Odin is more western than a middle eastern man god who died in beyt lahm leaving the massive universe he created behind to be beaten by a couple of disgruntled Jews or Romans depending on whose sensibilities you wish to acknowledge!

best,
 
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1. How many men were in Jesus' tomb when the women arrived?
one or two?
2. On the way to Golgotha where Jesus was to be crucified, who carried Jesus' cross?
Jesus or Simon of Cyrene?
3. When Jesus sent his disciples out to spread the gospel message to the cities of Israel, did he command them to take only a staff or to take no staff?

4. When Jesus and his disciples were walking toward Jerusalem after leaving Bethany that night, Jesus saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having figs. Did the tree wither immediately as they stood and watched or did it wither overnight?

(on a personal note it is amusing that 'god' doesn't know what he planted on the earth he created so he ****s it)

How many women went to Jesus' tomb on Sunday morning? one or more than one?

. After Jesus calmed the sea, he and his disciples went to a land called Gadarenes (Gergesenes in Matthew). How many demon-possessed men came out of the tombs?

one or two?
When Jesus rode into Jerusalem, was he riding on one donkey or two?


8. How did Judas Iscariot die?
He hung himself out of remorse for betraying Jesus
or perhaps
He fell on the ground in the field he purchased and his guts spilled out

9-How many days passed after Jesus' resurrection before he ascended into heaven?
1 or 40?

10- When did Satan enter Judas Iscariot?
several days before the last supper or during the last supper?

11- When Jesus was being crucified, were the women standing near (at the foot of) the cross, near enough for Jesus to speak to them from the cross, or were they watching from very far away?

12. Did both of the criminals who were crucified with Jesus revile him or did only one of them revile him?

13. Who was Jesus' grandfather on his father's side?
Jacob or Heli?

14. According to Jesus, is it okay to call someone a fool?

15. How many blind men did Jesus heal on his way out of Jericho? one or two?

16. When Jesus was being crucified, what did the soldiers give Jesus to drink?
Vinegar and gall or Wine and myrrh

17. What did Jesus do immediately after his baptism?

He went immediately into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil for 40 days or He called his disciples and attended the wedding at Cana

18. Did Jesus believe that bearing witness of himself made the witness true or not true?

Jesus believed that if he bore witness of himself, his witness was not true or Jesus believed that if he bore witness of himself, his witness was true

19. Did the women who visited Jesus' tomb run immediately and tell his disciples that he had risen?

They ran immediately to tell Jesus' disciples what they had seen and heard or They fled the tomb in fear and said nothing to anyone


20. Who bought the potter's field with the 30 pieces of silver that was payment for Judas' betrayal of Jesus?

The chief priests bought the potter's field or Judas bought the potter's field


well you get the picture math guy, and do the math yourself it just doesn't add up does it?
Try for some intellectual honesty too. Believe me nothing you do here is going to make anything you peddle more attractive!

best,
 
I can yell miracle if my toast looks like Mary if I wish. However even when Muhammd was asked to do miracles AS THE PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE had done he refused and admitted he couldn't. To claim a "prophet" that could not do miracles wrote a book that is one seems quite desperate in my opinion. Not to mention no prophies beyond the one about Rome which a preschool Child should have known and was so vague that half of Romes battles could be fit into it.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) did more miracles than Jesus (as). He never claimed to not have done any miracles. He said the Holy Qur'an was his miracle. And even though that is the case, he still performed many miracles. They are recorded in both the Qur'an and the Ahadith.
 
I will appreciate your patience until Ican post links and copy text.
Please note we will not be allowing copy and pasting of anti-Islamic material on this forum, nor do we allow links to such sites. If you have original arguments regarding the Qur'an, you may bring them up one at a time and members might respond. However, offensive remarks against the Prophet :saws: or the Qur'an will not be tolerated.

I note from your first post that you said:

In general my claim is that the Bible is superior to the Quran in allcategories by which these issues are determined within scholarship.
Meaningless statements such as, 'There is nothing at all exceptionalabout the Quran literarily' and ignorant claims like, 'Since Muhammadhimself said the Bible was to be used to judge the Quran' do not constitute 'scholarship'. We are not interested in entertaining your personal opinion, rather scholarship involves evidence and objectivity.

Let me also advise that evangelical remarks such as, 'We and I became one by direct experience with God. I met God.' are not scholarly. For the record, Muslims continue to meet God at least 5 times every day.

If unscrupulous posts continue, this thread will be closed.
 
On the issue of 'paganism', a cursory glance at Islam and other religions easily refutes this point. Let us use the topic of celebrations as an example:

Islamic Celebrations
...Unlike Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism, there are very few festivals in Islam, which provides for only two Eids (Eidul-fitr and Eidul-Adha)during the whole year. The dates of these two Eids do not correspond to the birthday of any of the outstanding persons of Islamic history, nor can their origin be attributed to any particular event of history that had happened in these dates.


Both of these two Eids have been prescribed for paying gratitude to Allah on some happy events that take place every year. The first event is the completion of the fasts of Ramadan and the second event is the completion of Hajj, another form of worship regarded as one of the five pillars of Islam.


The manner prescribed for the celebration of these two Eids(festivals) is also different from non-Islamic festivals. There are no formal processions, illumination or other activities showing formal happiness. On the contrary, there are congregational prayers and informal mutual visits to each other, which can give real happiness instead of its symbols only.


The Origins of Christmas
In fact, commemorating the birth of a distinguished person has never been prescribed by any religion attributing itself to divine revelation. It was originally a custom prevalent in pagan communities only. Even Christmas, the famous Christian feast commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ finds no mention in the Bible or in the early Christian writings. It was only in the 4th century after the ascension of Jesus Christ that Christmas was recognized as a regular Christian feast. To quote the Collier's Encyclopedia:

"It is impossible to determine the exact date of the birth of Christ, either from the evidence of the gospels, or from any sound tradition. During the first three centuries of the Christian era there was considerable opposition in the Church to the pagan custom of celebrating birthdays, although there is some indication that a purely religious commemoration of the birth of Christ was included in the feast of Epiphany. Clement of Alexandria mentions the existence of the feast in Egypt about the year A.D. 200 and we have some evidence that it was observed on various dates in scattered areas. After the triumph of Constantine, the Church at Rome assigned December 25 as the date for the celebration of the feast, possibly about A.D. 320 or 353. By the end of the fourth century the whole Christian world was celebrating Christmas on that day, with the exception of the Eastern Churches, where it was celebrated on January 6. The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god, and that the Saturnalia also came at this time." [SUP][1][/SUP].

A similar description of the origin of Christmas is found in-the Encyclopedia Britannica with some more details. Its following passage will throw more light on the point:

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church, and before the 5th century there was no general consensus of opinion as to when it should come in the calendar, whether on Jan. 6, March 25 or Dec. 25. The earliest identification of Dec. 25 with the birthday of Christ is in a passage, otherwise unknown and probably spurious, of the philos of Antioch (c.180), preserved in Latin by the Magdeburyg centuriators (i, 3, 118), to the effect that the Gauls contended that since they celebrated the birth of Lord on Dec. 25, so they ought to celebrate the resurrection on March 25. A passage, almost certainly interpolated, in 'Hippelates' (c. 202) commentary on Daniel iv, 23, says that Jesus was born at Bethlehem on Wednesday, Dec. 25, in the 42nd year of Augustus, but he mentions no feast, and such a feast, indeed, would conflict with the then orthodox ideas. As late as 245, Origin (hem. viii on Leviticus) repudiated the idea of keeping the birthday of Christ "as if he were a king Pharaoh". [SUP][2] [/SUP]

These two quotes are more than sufficient to prove the following points:

1. The commemoration of birthdays was originally a pagan custom, never recognized by a divine scripture or prophetic teaching.
2. The exact date of the Birth of Sayyidna 'Isa is unknown and impossible to be ascertained.
3. The commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ was not a recognized practice in the early centuries of the Christian history.
4. It was in the 4th or 5th century that it was recognized as a religious feast, and that, too, under the influence of the pagans who worshipped Sun-god.
5. There was a strong opposition against the commemorating of the birthday by the early Christian scholars like Origin, on the ground that it is originally a custom of pagans and idolaters.

Taken from: http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/8205-rabi-ul-awwal


Further details can be found in another article here:

...For example, as is common during Christmas, many people... erect Christmas trees in their homes adorning them with decorations such as tinsel, fairy lights and baubles. Underneath the tree there are usually a pile of presents which are opened on Christmas day. However, all of these practices originate from paganism. Erecting trees and adorning them for celebrations originated from pre-Christianity, to the extent that Jeremiah states in the Old Testament, 'For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold;,they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.'[SUP]15[/SUP] Additionally, the actual Christmas trees used in Britain stem from Norse paganism (and their celebrations during Yule), while decorations such as baubles represent the sun synonymous with the festival of Sol Invinctus. A practice which resembles Saturnalia is kissing under the mistletoe, and although fornication is explicitly forbidden in Christianity, many people have adopted this pagan practice of kissing strangers using mistletoe as an excuse to satisfy sexual desires - it was first practiced in Britain during solstitial rites among the pagan Druids...

...
Even though most of the West has immersed itself into the Christmas culture without questioning its origins or pagan connotations, the paganisation of the Christian faith has not gone unnoticed by all, rather we see in the past that Christmas was rejected by many Protestant groups during the 16th century, and in addition, Puritans of 17th century England and America banned the festival of Christmas as pagan. Oliver Cromwell also banned Christmas after the English Civil War due to the belief that it was a pagan belief which encouraged sin and immorality interpolated into the Christian faith. Christians suchas Jehovah Witnesses continue to hold beliefs similar to the Puritans and reject the notion of Christmas altogether...
http://www.islam21c.com/theology/173-christmas-and-the-paganisation-of-christianity
 
[QUOTE=العنود;1586970]
Even though the Quran is an oral tradition. We don't need to have hard copiesof it, the decision for hard copies was made after a 70 hafiths were killedwhen they were sent to teach it to obvious traitors. Many of us on this boardhere are also memorizers of the Quran and it is recited 17 times a day acrossthe globe by 1.8 billion Muslims just as it began. It was always compiled andwith direct supervision of the messenger
Do Muslim's actually recite the Quran 17 times a day? I am quite certain that not5% of the 1.8 billion Muslims do so regardless. Not that that makes it any morereliable nor accurate but that is amazing. I am a veteran and was taught brainwashing theory. One of the most effective means of making someone think as youwish regardless of what they started out believing is constant repetition. Ifyou can get them when they are young the end result is guaranteed. The entireQuran seems to be composed to repeat not to comprehend. The Bible seems to beconstructed to convince not coerce. You are right that the Quran was writtenand collected from fragments of animal skins, bone shards, rocks, parchment,and memory because many of those that knew it were killed. Many of them were the only ones who knew certain sections (according to Islamic traditions), so those are lost to begin with, even Muhammad’swives said animals ate others and some were simply lost. However it was 700 ofthose that memorized it that were killed and it was in the civil war and chaosthat ensued within Islam when Muhammad died. Hopefully here soon I will be ableto post links and quotes for all of this but I have no idea how many posts ittakes before I am able.
so in fact the bible is no way on equal footing with the Quran and if anythingit can be compared with it would be the hadith and even those have a strongchain of Isnad that is bar none!
There are lists of names in Biblical textual traditions as well. Farmore chains and far more names. It is the fact that a list of names makes notext any more reliable that explains the fact I never have. If you have everheard of the telephone game then you should know that lists of names who passeddown oral traditions are the worst form of textual transmission possible. Thefirst 5 books of the Bible are oral translated and are the books I find theleast reliable and hard to defend. The problem gets worse the longer the listis yet you seem to view a long list as an asset instead of the liability itactually is in scholarship. The Bible claims that the Holy Spirit himselfappeared to the apostles for the very purpose of reminding them accurately of theevents they recorded. That is the best possible scenario there is. It would behard to prove to someone who denies Divine inspiration but you are not one ofthose people. You believe it occurred but for some reason believe that it beingwhispered between 20 people and then written is better than being given fromGod to the author and then recorded. Why?



That's nonsense:
It is unanimous that the Quran was compiled during the reign of Uthman notwritten:
If I said written that is not the best word to use. The Quran alreadyexisted in several different versions. These differing interpretations werecausing so much infighting in the Muslim army that Uthman decided toconsolidate a single version and burn the rest. If the others were notdifferent from his and themselves there is absolutely no need to burn them.


Here are some of the earliest parchments before collections and they canbe found in various museums around the world:
There are no whole Quran'sfrom Uthman's time or before, known to man. Sorry but the way you copied yourpictures made quoting them impossible and I had to delete them to reply until Ihave made a certain number of posts. The commonly claimed "oldest"Quran is the Yemeni manuscript (or Sana's). Since I can’t copy and paste what Iwish to I will just give a few details.

1. It is not an entire Quran. It is a collection of fragments that make up (Ibelieve) less than 50% of the Quran.
2. Some fragments date from the 7th and 8th centuries but are in poor shape.
3. The majority that is in good shape is from 800Ad or later.
4. It contains example where text was erased and different text added later.
5. It also differs in many ways from Uthman's manuscript as admitted by Muslimscholars.
6. Even the NT is several hundred years earlier that the Quran but many ofPaul's fragments exist from within a dozen years of their writing and other fragmentsexist that are not much later. Thousands of them. Not to mention the dead seascrolls which eliminated any significant doubts about the old testament(especially Isaiah which is concerned with the messiah).
7. If you wish to adopt the Yemen manuscript then it is absolute proof that theQuran was changed even very early on. The only debate would be how much?


you should argue from knowledge not out of whimsy.
Also did you take the Quiz I provided?
I am wondering how well you scored?
I did not take the test because of limited time. However I know whattests like this attempt to prove. You may select any one of the"claimed" contradictions that were used to generate the test and wecan see if it survives scrutiny. I am sure some scribes messed up and caused contradictionsin the Bible but so far not one has been given that survives the slightestresearch. Pick your best.

good luck.. also please try to space your words when you write, asidefrom the nonsensical contents one can't sort through the words. Do you not havea spacebar on your keyboard?
I thought I explained this. I am on a DODserver and can’t download the spell check so I must transfer everything to wordto edit it and for some reason it jams words together when I transfer it backto this forum. The other forums I use do not do this. That is not to say my grammaris good. It stinks but the errors you mention are formatting issues. I also hadto delete your links because it will not let me reply with any links at all,even yours until I make so many posts. Sorry. Let me summarize your post.

1. Many people recite the Quran. Fine but irrelevant.
2. Long lists of oral transmission are a liability not an asset.
3. 12,000 early fragments that have been changed (this is simply an giventextual fact not an assertion, and who's earliest are in poor condition do notundue the dozen or so textual advantages I gave for the Bible. I do not knowwhat you thought this manuscript proved.
4. You claim as I do that Uthman compiled a politically motivated Quran andattempted to destroy every other copy, though my wording may have been lessprecise than I intended.
5. It appears to me we are just where we started.



 
[QUOTE=العنود;1586970]
Do Muslim's actually recite the Quran 17 times a day? I am quite certain that not5% of the 1.8 billion Muslims do so regardless. Not that that makes it any morereliable nor accurate but that is amazing. I am a veteran and was taught brainwashing theory. One of the most effective means of making someone think as youwish regardless of what they started out believing is constant repetition. Ifyou can get them when they are young the end result is guaranteed. The entireQuran seems to be composed to repeat not to comprehend. The Bible seems to beconstructed to convince not coerce.

Man, I dont know where you are getting your facts from. Do you know Arabic? Do you use critical thinking when reading? Because even for people who know Arabic and who are critical thinkers, Quran is deep and not some story book that you can recite to go to sleep.
 
Do Muslim's actually recite the Quran 17 times a day? I am quite certain that not5% of the 1.8 billion Muslims do so regardless.
Indeed we do if we fulfill the second obligation of Islam which is making prayers. During the five times we pray we recite. Where are you getting your stats from? God told you in a dream?
Not that that makes it any morereliable nor accurate but that is amazing
In what way is it not reliable not accurate? because you said so?
I am a veteran and was taught brainwashing theory.
You're many things none of them sensical nor congruent with what you write.


One of the most effective means of making someone think as youwish regardless of what they started out believing is constant repetition.
I don't know that it holds true given your repetition here which appear more absurd with each subsequent post.


The entireQuran seems to be composed to repeat not to comprehend
Care to back that up?
The Bible seems to beconstructed to convince not coerce.
But we've read it and there's nothing convincing about it. And as I have stated christianity is on the decline so there's no better testimony to just how unconvincing it is!
You are right that the Quran was writtenand collected from fragments of animal skins, bone shards, rocks, parchment,and memory because many of those that knew it were killed. Many of them were the only ones who knew certain sections (according to Islamic traditions), so those are lost to begin with, even Muhammad’swives said animals ate others and some were simply lost. However it was 700 ofthose that memorized it that were killed and it was in the civil war and chaosthat ensued within Islam when Muhammad died. Hopefully here soon I will be ableto post links and quotes for all of this but I have no idea how many posts ittakes before I am able.
Nothing of the Quran was lost. I have already given a link that goes through the painstaking process verse by verse!


There are lists of names in Biblical textual traditions as well. Farmore chains and far more names.
Isn't it amazing that even if we subscribe to your faulty notions that, it is a further testimony that there's nothing divine or guiding about the bible, given not just the lewdness of content but lack of agreement on major events?


If you have everheard of the telephone game
Does god author games?


These differing interpretations werecausing
again, care to back that up?


(Ibelieve)
your beliefs have no relevance here.


I am sure some scribes messed up and caused contradictionsin the Bible
Again, shouldn't god preserve his so called message and book?
You didn't have the time is again a contradiction to the volumes of logorrhea & empty rhetoric you've dished out here!
_______________

Your take home message here, should be to spend sometime going for some quality research and scholarship. I don't like wasting my time engaging silly drivel!

best,
 
Arcangel, you're so stupidly worng about a great many things, that I don't think I should humour your posts with my time and effort to be quite frank... I'll let other members take care of your rather warped ideas about Islam and the Quran.

military defence... i bet that includes zion right? pfft.

Scimi
 
Just as an aside note, here they're teaching math in a major university based on what was revealed in the Quran per laws of inheritance:
http://www.deltacollege.edu/dept/basicmath/Islamic.htm

compare and contrast that to the basic tenet of Christianity where you need a group of theologians to convolute what should otherwise be a 'universal message' for mankind.
That's if we just focus on one of the many erroneous conclusions by our veteran, mathematician pal!
The Quran is complete, politics, economics, social structure, ideology, inheritance, jurisprudence, the book upon which modern day Arabic grammar is taught, a spiritual guide, a comfort to the heart, and lyricism and poetry unparalleled through the ages, that the challenge is still unmet from ancient times and with all our technology.
Imagine a verse revealed 10, 20 years later to fall perfectly in place in context and lyricism without computers and archives to sort it out. Sob7an Allah truly its miraculous features never cease!


Oh God how beautiful and heart rendering!

[FONT=Verdana,arial]Al-Baqara (The Cow) [2:109] [RECITE]
Wadda katheerun min ahli alkitabi law yaruddoonakum min baAAdi eemanikum kuffaran hasadan min AAindi anfusihim min baAAdi ma tabayyana lahumu alhaqqu faoAAfoo waisfahoo hatta yatiya Allahu biamrihi inna Allaha AAala kulli shayin qadeerun
[/FONT]
 
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I am a veteran and was taught brainwashing theory. One of the most effective means of making someone think as youwish regardless of what they started out believing is constant repetition. Ifyou can get them when they are young the end result is guaranteed. The entireQuran seems to be composed to repeat not to comprehend.
Your anti-Islamic rhetoric and complete ignorance regarding the history and compilation of the Qur'an is clear so we will not be wasting our time and effort on this nonsense any longer. If you are interested in factual information, you can read what follows.

Greetings,

I was glancing through this thread and stumbled upon two issues I'd like to comment on. The first pertaining to details regarding the historical compilation and preservation of the Qur'an. And the second being a direct response to comments I made previously in another thread on the forum.

First, let me just point out that we should be referring to scholarly, academic sources that provide the references and research for all conclusions. See my list of recommended books on Islam for the links to two books which cover the preservation of the Qur'an and its qira'at in a very detailed scholarly fashion (one book is by Yasir Qadhi and the other by M.M. Azami).

One fallacy that many people commit in discussing the preservation of the Qur'an is ignoring its oral and educational tradition, focusing merely on the textual. The Qur'an is a living text, in that its recitation forms an integral part of the daily religious practice of each and every muslim in the world. The Imam recites from the Qur'an in the congregational prayers, and during Ramadan every year the entire Qur'an is recited from cover to cover in each mosque by the Imam from memory. Now let's take the example of the Holy Mosque in Makkah where literally millions of worshippers congregate during the prayers in Ramadan. Standing in that congregation there are countless thousands who have memorized the Qur'an and have come from every corner of the world and many more thousands who follow along with a pocket Qur'an. Even the slightest mispronunciation of a vowelization mark is instantly corrected.

Muslims everywhere memorize the Qur'an, many millions memorizing the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, such that Huffaadh (singl. Hafidh - one who has memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) are ubiquitous within the muslim community. It is not uncommon nor surprising to find children even as young as six or seven or younger who have completed their memorization of the entire Qur'an. If all the books in the entire world were to be lost or destroyed, only the Qur'an would be recovered letter for letter as it is preserved in the hearts of so many millions.

As far as the textual history goes, I'd like to mention a few points. The criteria used in the compilation of the Qur'an was that for each verse there had to be at least two witnesses, each of whom having not only memorized the verse (since practically all the companions had memorized the Qur'an) but had with them the parchment on which they recorded the verse in the presence of the Prophet himself. Uthman ordered the writing of several other copies of the text and sent them to the major cities, each accompanied with a knowledgeable recitor from amongst the companions to teach the people. When Uthman ordered that all other copies/parchments be either burned or erased it was because such copies were neither verified nor authorized under the consensus of the companions and consequently they could be written according to a specific dialect which would lead to confusion and bickering or they could even contain the odd scribal error which could also lead to confusion. When Uthman destroyed the unauthorized parchments it was a preventative measure to ensure that alterations of God's revelation would never take place.

One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur’an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur’an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur’an authenticated.

1. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

2. Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.

3. Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.

4. Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

5. Diacritical marks were added for non-Arabs

The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.

Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.

6. Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an

Allah has promised in the Qur’an :

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)."
[Al-Qur’an 15:9]

Article Source: http://towardsislam.pynex.com/content.php?article.23


A number of times, you have also made mention of 'witnesses' and 'chains'. Regarding the Qur'an, there are millions of scholars who are part of unbroken chains leading directly back to the Prophet :saws:, with the names of each and every person in that chain. Yet when we even begin to study biblical integrity, it is not known how many authors contributed to it or who they were. Even regarding those who dedicated themselves to collecting, arranging, and preserving the scriptures that existed in their day - it is said that the names of most of those who did this work are unknown. How then can one even begin to make a comparison regarding the two?

It seems fitting to remind you of what your own scripture teaches:

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
[Matthew 7:1-5]



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