Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Grace Seeker]

Peace

The following comparative study is the harvest of my personal reflection on the two books that are believed by about half of the population of the world to be God's inspired word.....

the study is throughly ,would be by topics (items),and the focus would be mostly on the textual disagreements ...

It seems to me as if this thread has lost its focus. Is it possible to get back to simply noting the textual disagreements (or perhaps even occassional similitudes), rather than trying to prove one text more authoritative or true than the other?

 

[Al-manar]

It seems to me as if this thread has lost its focus. Is it possible to get back to simply noting the textual disagreements (or perhaps even occassional similitudes), rather than trying to prove one text more authoritative or true than the other?

welcome back Grace seeker to the thread...

my wish always to keep the thread on topic (which is varied issues) ...

you know what is my intention for the thread? it is to get muslims and christians to know what is exactly Islam position regarding christianity.....and vice versa..

to be honest ,I never intended my posts to be directed at non-muslims ,or I wish to be a preacher attracting non-muslims to Islam .......

all my goal to strengthen the faith of the muslim members ,opening their eyes to see ,who are we(as muslims) in this world of comparative religions? what are the real problems of the bible from a Quranic point of view? where they diasgree,and why? suggesting some clues to judge both, on the other hand what are the misconceptions of muslims regarding the bible?

I didn't intend the posts to be mere Quoting both the books ,without comments, giving reasons which narrations should be trusted... that doesn't mean I should all the way criticise the bible.... I will criticise some muslim arguments used against the bible ..... isn't that fair?

I trust that ,till now,I kept myself on topic as much as possible ......

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, if you're happy with it as it is, then who am I to say differently. It is after all your thread. But I'm not interested in the point/counterpoint stuff that you and Hugo are doing, so I think I need to start another thread if that is what this one is about. Peace.

 

[glo]

It seems to me as if this thread has lost its focus. Is it possible to get back to simply noting the textual disagreements (or perhaps even occasional similitudes), rather than trying to prove one text more authoritative or true than the other?

Personally, I would be very interesting in exploring the similitudes between Qu'ran and the Bible.

 

[Hugo]

=Al-manar;1348224]Ah.... I see you imitiating those genius christians who would argue. A contradictory bible is more convincing to be divine than non-contradictory one ...A bible with immoral stories is more convincing to be divine than a pure one...

TRY to see the point, on the one hand you talks about reasons for corruptions such as status or legitimacy and then cannot explain why someone would deliberately damage the reputation of its principal characters and hope to gain by it the status and legitimacy you claim. You appear to think that because you say something that equals it must be true.

Proof means that the phenomenon we are looking at is always true, it’s not a matter of belief but something that cannot be avoided (like gravity for example). For example Archimedes principle is always true for everyone, all the time, everywhere, is accepted by all and cannot be avoided or ignored by anyone. So when we are speaking if things related to faith we can never get proof of this nature because there will always be unprovable elements.

That is why in science we never start out by trying to show something is true but rather we set out to find a way to falsify it and if we cannot find such a way then it cannot be proved one way or the other. So its best not to kid yourself that you can show that something is divine, you can choose to believe it of course but no more than that.

yes I did , and I guess you never read it , why? cause none honest ,would read it (in spite of the cons that might be therin) would say:

I cannot make any sense of this as you appear to be saying that none who are honest would read Ehrman's book?

 

[muslim787]

Quran honours prophet Jesus pbuh and even attributes miracles to him, not mentioned in the Bible.

Talking as an infant:

Qur'an chapter 9 titled Maryam

He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, (30) And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, (31)

Made clay birds and breathed life into them:

Qur'an chapter titled Imran 3:

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, (48) And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers. (49)

All thw w's dot gutenberg.org /etext / 6516


The above was all kept out of the New Testament: Download and use keyword searches to include "Cradle" and "Birds"

Skeptics dismiss the banned books as fables. I'll let you decide for yourselves.

 

[Al-manar]

TRY to see the point, on the one hand you talks about reasons for corruptions such as status or legitimacy and then cannot explain why someone would deliberately damage the reputation of its principal characters

damaging the reputation of the pious,prophets is something the Jews were famous for .....
or you need to know what have they accused Jesus with?!

and hope to gain by it the status and legitimacy you claim.

I didn't talk about those who damaged the reputation of the prophets, I talked about those who created a role for jesus,he was not supposed to do ,and searched as much passages as in the old testament to convince the masses with their imaginary agenda (details later)....

I cannot make any sense of this as you appear to be saying that none who are honest would read Ehrman's book?

I said none honest ,would read the book, should say(as you):
The idea you express that this activity made them more 'patiently orthodox' is an absurdity

But I'm not interested in the point/counterpoint stuff that you and Hugo are doing,

me neither very interested in the counterpoints that Hugo do, cause most of it, so irrelevant...
and I would add,should be disappointing for the chrisrtians...

so I think I need to start another thread if that is what this one is about.

though we both go in the opposite direction ,I find you wiser than lots of the christians I argued with before....
I wish Hugo would learn some of your wisdom...

Personally, I would be very interesting in exploring the similitudes between Qu'ran and the Bible.

glo , I find you as some christians I knew in the board (eg; Eric,grace-seeker and others)... have sincere peaceful intentions towards muslims.....

that is something so welcomed and positive.... just the sad part ,you are just a minority, a voice in wildreness who call for tolerance and peaceful co-existence ,such fews peaceful christians ,unfortunately ,their efforts are not that effective as they are living among the voice of the majority that preaches, hatred,intolerance ......

anyway.... thank you for your efforts, and remember always though I have problems with the bible I have no problem at all with the nice,good christians as you.......

 

[syed_z]

@Hugo

This work clearly contradicts the New Testament biblical accounts of Jesus and his ministry but has strong parallels with the Islamic faith, not only mentioning Muhammad by name, but including the shahadah. It is anti-Pauline and anti-Trinitarian in tone. In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet, not the son of God, while Paul is called "the deceived". Furthermore, the Gospel of Barnabas states that Jesus escaped crucifixion by being raised alive to heaven; while Judas Iscariot the traitor was crucified in his place. These beliefs; in particular that Jesus is a prophet of God and raised alive without being crucified; conform with Islamic beliefs but cannot be found in the usual Gospel accounts.

In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity. Some Islamic organizations cite the Gospel of Barnabas in support of Muhammad's ministry. However, this book also claims that Muhammad is the Messiah among many other Islamic beliefs. This Gospel is considered by the majority of academics, including Christians and some Muslims to be late and pseudepigraphical but suggest that it may contain remnants of an earlier apocryphal work edited to conform to Islam. A "Gospel according to Barnabas" is mentioned in two early Christian lists of apocryphal works dated 6th/7th century.

well we can clearly see from Historical sources that Christianity with the Concept of Trinity formed as part of the Religion was not a following of many people, rather it was the Church which had forced this Concept over the Majority of people living under the Rule of Emperor Constantine 1....


There are many Famous figures, who did NOT want to worship Jesus as God and did not believe in that Concept, because it was 1st of all clear to them that Jesus (a.s) was just a human being like every one and had said many times, what he was , i.e Just a Prophet come to teach the Lost Sheep of Israel (jews) and not to the whole world.... and NEVER claimed divinity....


i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]


Jesus (a.s) never said that he could perform any miracles by himself, it was God who was doing it for him.... and was just a Prophet of God like Muhammad (Saw)...


"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

[The Bible, Acts 2:22]



so all of these Beliefs which Verify was Quran says about Jesus (a.s) are also to be Found in the 4 Gospels which the Church selected... and NOT only in Gospel of Barnabas...if Gospel of Barnabas is the Only one that resembles Quranic Belief in Allah, then why does the 4 Gospels say what Belief of Islam verifies ? ...Quran says...

(5:17) Indeed those who said: 'Christ, the son of Mary, he is indeed God', disbelieved.

(4:171) People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to Allah nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him (which led to Mary's conception). So believe in Allah and in His Messengers, and do not say: (Allah is a) trinity. Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. Allah is indeed just one God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. Allah is sufficient for a guardian.



God Sent Jesus (a.s)


(i)"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]





Where does Jesus say in the 4 Gospels... that I am God or I have all the Power... or Worship me ?

No Divinity... Jesus rather taught Contrary to what the Church Dogma is, the salvation lies in Believing in God and NOT believing in Jesus as His son.... rather Jesus says to keep commandments of God, in order to achieve Salvation and NOWHERE in the Gospels it is said that Jesus said he would die for the Sins of Mankind...


"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]




Jesus was a Muslim ..... A Muslim by definition means the One who Submits his Will to the Will of Al Mighty God...

John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.


(Quran 3:19)The true religion with Allah is by submitting your Will to the Will of God. The People of the Book (Jews and Christians) adopted many different ways rather than follow the true way of Islam even after the knowledge of truth had reached them, and this merely to commit excesses against one another. Let him who refuses to follow the ordinances and directives of Allah know that Allah is swift in His reckoning.

 

[Grace Seeker]

glo , I find you as some christians I knew in the board (eg; Eric,grace-seeker and others)... have sincere peaceful intentions towards muslims.....

that is something so welcomed and positive.... just the sad part ,you are just a minority, a voice in wildreness who call for tolerance and peaceful co-existence ,such fews peaceful christians ,unfortunately ,their efforts are not that effective as they are living among the voice of the majority that preaches, hatred,intolerance ......

anyway.... thank you for your efforts, and remember always though I have problems with the bible I have no problem at all with the nice,good christians as you.......

Not to be intentionally contentious, but I'm not sure whether you are getting your overall view of Christians from this and other internet forums or from personal contact -- where I believe that people like Glo are the rule and not the exception. I say that because I find that forums frequently introduce us to people with entrenched positions (whatever the issue). I would hope that in the real world your experience with flesh and blood Christians would be better than what one finds here. I know I have to keep reminding myself, that my first-hand experiences with Muslims are all much better than what I generally encounter online.

Peace.

 

[glo]

Not to be intentionally contentious, but I'm not sure whether you are getting your overall view of Christians from this and other internet forums or from personal contact -- where I believe that people like Glo are the rule and not the exception. I say that because I find that forums frequently introduce us to people with entrenched positions (whatever the issue). I would hope that in the real world your experience with flesh and blood Christians would be better than what one finds here. I know I have to keep reminding myself, that my first-hand experiences with Muslims are all much better than what I generally encounter online.

Peace.

Hey, Grace, for one brief moment I was feeling special there ... until you came along!!

But on a serious note, I agree with Grace Seeker.

I came to this forum largely to get to know and understand Islam and Muslims better - with the intention of being able to relate better, build friendships and - in the long run - make better communities and neighbourhoods.

The good news is that I have learned a lot about Islam and on the whole understand Muslims better, and I have made some great friends here in this forum from all religions and none.

But I also find that very often people's views of each other become polarised and entrenched.
We stop seeing each other as human beings, who share the same basic humanity with the same needs, desires and feelings - and start seeing each other as labels: Christians, Muslims, atheists etc, etc
In that sense I sometimes wonder whether this forum has been beneficial, or whether it is serving to strengthen stereotypes we already have of each other, rather than demolishing them ...

In real life we are more likely to see the human in each other and to respond to each other's human need.

 

[Al-manar]

Not to be intentionally contentious, but I'm not sure whether you are getting your overall view of Christians from this and other internet forums or from personal contact -- where I believe that people like Glo are the rule and not the exception.

such view I got from all what you mentioned... I believe that before the media attack against Islam and muslims ,people as glo etc.. weren't the exception.... but media proved itself a dangerous tool that seeded haterd ,intolerance and in few years the harvest took the form of wide spreading Islamophobia , general hostile attitude against muslims in the west ...... whenever there is a vote for intolerant laws, aggressive war against muslims ,you find that the majority of christians would immediately vote for it....

I say that because I find that forums frequently introduce us to people with entrenched positions (whatever the issue). I would hope that in the real world your experience with flesh and blood Christians would be better than what one finds here.

In my real life,I used from childhood to be in contact with the Arab Christians eg;neighbours ........
those christians used to co-exist in peace with muslims since almost the beginning of Islam .... without much trouble...

they used to respect and be respected ,even if there is hatred it would be hidden in the minds,hearts..... not till recently ,sadly the church media (TV channels & online activities) ,began the offense ..... the muslims have no choice but to try to counter that ....... and there is a real war in the media now between muslims and christians......history tells , weapon wars were a consequnce of word wars..... so I think unless this word war stop ,there won't be the least hope to evade the weapon wars ,which won't benefit none....

I know I have to keep reminding myself, that my first-hand experiences with Muslims are all much better than what I generally encounter online..

you are right, me for example ,Imagin once I meet you....... all what I will do to invite you home for a meal and be sure our discussion won't be religious at all, ... so there is no chance for a debate ...:smile:...

The good news is that I have learned a lot about Islam and on the whole understand Muslims better, and I have made some great friends here in this forum .

would I add,you have learned what is the Quranic problem with the bible ? I think you do....
as long as you read the thread etc...

and remember always we have problems with the bible not with peaceful christians etc....

 

[Hugo]

Quran honours prophet Jesus pbuh and even attributes miracles to him, not mentioned in the Bible. Made clay birds and breathed life into them:

This story is a copy from what is called The Infancy Gospel of Thomas and dates to the 2/3rd centuries. It was part of a popular genre of pseudo-biblical work, written to satisfy a hunger among early Christians for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided.

The above was all kept out of the New Testament: Download and use keyword searches to include "Cradle" and "Birds" - Skeptics dismiss the banned books as fables. I'll let you decide for yourselves.

What puzzles me in all this kind of thing is that you leap to these obviously apocryphal books and others like the Gospel of Barnabas without having read them and ignore the four accepted and most well attested gospels. You speak of how careful and logical Islam is and how chains or narrators are needed buy when it suits your purpose you forget all that and blindly accept such nonsensical stories - why?

 

[Hugo]

damaging the reputation of the pious,prophets is something the Jews were famous for .....or you need to know what have they accused Jesus with?!

It is true that that the Jews persecuted and even killed the prophets but also preserved their message. If one studies the Biblical prophets then I don't think you can find one who claimed to be pious or perfect in any way and indeed it was a constant lament that they fell short, far short. Moses tried it in one place and was punished for it by not being allowed to enter the promised land. David in Psalm 51:3 said "For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me". Job 42:4-8 (NIV) make it crystal clear, when we come before God we will have nothing to commend us:

"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

The idea that prophets are in some way perfect is an entirely Islamic invention and Job makes clear what our attitude should be - if you can, tell us where this Islamic dogma comes from.

though we both go in the opposite direction ,I find you wiser than lots of the christians I argued with before.... I wish Hugo would learn some of your wisdom...

I am not sure who said the above but Benjamin Franklin one said "The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance”. I am happy to confess to mine so what about you? Finally, it is an entirely silly and useless idea to suggest that those who oppose or ask question are any less sincere that those who do not and what on earth gives you the self-righteous authority to pronounce on who or who is not "nice" - go and look at what Job said. Scepticism is as much the result of knowledge, as knowledge is the result of scepticism. To be content with what we know is for the most part to shut our ears and stagnate.

 

[جوري]

It is true that that the Jews persecuted and even killed the prophets but also preserved their message.

How do you preserve the message when you don't like what the messengers have to say to the point of breaking the very foundation of religion. ( that of committing murder) and you are speaking of preservation of the supernumerary fundamentals!
do you ponder what you write before you hurl it out?

 

[Hugo]

such view I got from all what you mentioned... I believe that before the media attack against Islam and muslims ,people as glo etc.. weren't the exception.... but media proved itself a dangerous tool that seeded haterd ,intolerance and in few years the harvest took the form of wide spreading Islamophobia , general hostile attitude against muslims in the west ...... whenever there is a vote for intolerant laws, aggressive war against muslims ,you find that the majority of christians would immediately vote for it....

It is of course true that there is hatred of Islam in much the same way are there is hatred of Christianity and other faiths. The trouble with you analysis is that is cannot accept or even image in that it Islam is at fault. Just today we read of two Sunni suicide bombers killing dozens in a shia Mosque in Iran, if we go to Iraq its even worse with both the Christian and Sunni population being more or less driven out by extremist shia and mostly into Northern Iraq or into Syria or to the West. The list goes on with hardly a day going by without one Muslim killing another one. Go an read Deborah Amos' book "The Eclipse of the Sunnis: Exile and Upheaval in the Middle East"

In my real life,I used from childhood to be in contact with the Arab Christians eg;neighbours ........ those christians used to co-exist in peace with muslims since almost the beginning of Islam .... without much trouble...

Did you regard them as your equal in everything?

you are right, me for example ,Imagin once I meet you....... all what I will do to invite you home for a meal and be sure our discussion won't be religious at all, ... so there is no chance for a debate .

Here I agree with you, meeting face to face and really finding out who someone is lead to an entirely different expedience.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Personally, I would be very interesting in exploring the similitudes between Qu'ran and the Bible.

Although I would have little if anything to contribute to said thread I would love to read it. Make it happen guys

 

[Asiyah3]

****edit****

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I have already written a number of things, and stored them for posting later if this thread had ended up being of that nature. I'll be glad to post them as the start of a new thread, but first I have to find them. You see, I moved recently, and they are on a flash drive floating around in the bottom of an as yet unopened box.

 

[aadil77]

Although I would have little if anything to contribute to said thread I would love to read it. Make it happen guys

I think its happened plenty of times before, all it leads to is everyone sucking up to each other and continous acknowledgement of similarities - theres no fun in that

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think its happened plenty of times before, all it leads to is everyone sucking up to each other and continous acknowledgement of similarities - theres no fun in that

Please tell me that you are jesting with regard to the part in bold print.