Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Ramadhan]

People do similar things even today. I have known commentators and clergymen make the claim that the Bible is in agreement with the theory of evolution. Evolution has become in modern times the fashionable explanation for our existence here on earth and few people dare to deny it for fear of ridicule.

I am sorry, but it is very clear even to non christians that the bible is very literal about the creation process and age of the world. There is no confusion.
Christians just accept it as one of the many things about the bible they just "shrug it off" because they know they cannot defend it.

Jesus as the divine, however, is another matter.
The divinity of jesus is the biggest thing in christianity.
It is inconceivable that all current christian theologians got it wrong if they do not have some material to back up their claim (even though the opposing materials are also evident to begin with). There must have been more than just a little twisting of meanings to begin with.

In ancient times the fashionable explanation for life, the universe and everything was Greek philosophy. Early Christian theologians borrowed many ideas from the Greek philosophers, especially Plato, and used them to explain the meaning of the Bible. I can give you a whole list of names of these apologists and theologians if you like. Of great interest to them was the title of "Word" or "Logos" (in Greek) used for Jesus in John's prologue. As the "Word" of God, Jesus spoke words from God as all the prophets did. And that is all that the title meant. Jesus was like God's spokesman. But in Greek philosophy "Logos" was a technical term with many meanings including "mind" or "rational thought". So these theologians believed that Jesus was the very mind and thinking of God. So they then went on to conclude that Jesus must be co-eternal with God, even of the same substance as God. Eventually, they decided that Jesus must be God himself.

your explanation does not add up.

How did the early christian theologians got it so totally wrong about such important issue while, I assume, they still the original new testament and they were even much closer in time to the event of Jesus?
How come those theologians got so EASILY confused?
I thought they were supposed to be filled with holy spirit that help them in writing the new testaments and understandng them?

And can you supply us the identities of those theologians that twisted the meanings of the bible and when they lived? thanks.

 

[Hiroshi]

I am sorry, but it is very clear even to non christians that the bible is very literal about the creation process and age of the world. There is no confusion.

It sure is. The first verse in the Bible says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. But how long ago was "in the beginning"? We are not told. It could have been hundreds of billions of years ago that the physical universe and our planet came into existence.

Genesis then goes on to speak of six creative days during which changes were made to the earth and life began to appear. But again, these creative days cannot just be ordinary 24 hour days. Why? Because the seventh day has not yet ended (Psalms 95:11; Hebrews 4:4-5). We are still in that seventh day which has continued since Adam's creation. This being so, the seventh "day" must be thousands of years in duration. And reasonably, the same would be true of the other six.

This still does not put the Bible in agreement with evolution though. We are talking tens of thousands of years here but not the millions of years demanded by the evolution theory for life to appear.

 

[Hiroshi]

Christians just accept it as one of the many things about the bible they just "shrug it off" because they know they cannot defend it.

I can defend it. What is the problem?

 

[Hiroshi]

Jesus as the divine, however, is another matter.
The divinity of jesus is the biggest thing in christianity.
It is inconceivable that all current christian theologians got it wrong if they do not have some material to back up their claim (even though the opposing materials are also evident to begin with). There must have been more than just a little twisting of meanings to begin with.





your explanation does not add up.

How did the early christian theologians got it so totally wrong about such important issue while, I assume, they still the original new testament and they were even much closer in time to the event of Jesus?
How come those theologians got so EASILY confused?
I thought they were supposed to be filled with holy spirit that help them in writing the new testaments and understandng them?

And can you supply us the identities of those theologians that twisted the meanings of the bible and when they lived? thanks.

I have a book that I would like to quote from.

Early Christian Doctrines by J. N. D. Kelly, pages 84-85:

In Justin the oneness, transcendence and creative role of God are asserted in language strongly coloured by the Platonizing Stoicism of the day. It was apparently his sincere belief that the Greek thinkers had had access to the works of Moses.

...

“We have learned,” he states, “that, being good, He created all things in the beginning out of formless matter.” This was the teaching of Plato’s Timaeus, which Justin supposed to be akin to be akin to, and borrowed from, that contained in Genesis. For Plato, of course, pre-existent matter was eternal, but it is improbable that Justin acquiesced in the implied dualism;

...

A further important point he made was that, in creating and sustaining the universe, God used His Logos, or Word, as His instrument.

Page 96:

The Apologists’ originality (their thought was more Philonic than Johannine) lay in drawing out the further implications of the Logos idea in order to make plausible the twofold fact of Christ’s pre-temporal oneness with the Father and His manifestation in space and time. In so doing, while using such Old Testament texts as Ps. 33, 6 (“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made”), they did not hesitate to blend with them the Stoic technical distinction between the immanent word (logos endiathetos) and the word uttered or expressed (logos prophorikos).

Page 100:

“The Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son by the unity and power of divine spirit, the Son of God is the Father’s intelligence and Word” (nous kai logos). To make his point clearer, Athenagoras then points out that, while He is God’s offspring, He never actually came into being (ouk hos genomenon), “for God from the beginning, being eternal intelligence, had His Word (logos) in Himself, being eternally rational” (aidios logikos).





I hope that you can see from just these few extracts how muddled up these men were with ideas from Philonic, Stoic and Platonic philosophy which they tried to blend with the scriptures resulting in a completely distorted picture of Christ who John’s gospel calls the Word (or Logos). The title of “Logos” made them think that Christ must be God’s intelligence and rational thought and hence in unity with God’s very being. Greek philosophy led them astray completely and finally resulted in the monstrous belief that God is a trinity.

 

[جوري]

Hiroshi, I invite to Islam, I think you'd feel better!
let me know if any of us can be of help to you on a journey of faith, logic and knowledge!

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, I invite to Islam, I think you'd feel better!
let me know if any of us can be of help to you on a journey of faith, logic and knowledge!

all the best

Thank you Vale's Lily. You can see the mess that Christianity got into when it became corrupt. I am sure that Islam attracted many people in the past as well as today with the simple understandable teaching of the oneness of God as opposed to the incomprensible trinity doctrine. But in my own case, I still see many differences between my beliefs and those of Muslims.

 

[Hiroshi]

And can you supply us the identities of those theologians that twisted the meanings of the bible and when they lived? thanks.

In my post #664 I mentioned two of the very early "Apologists". One called Justin Martyr apparently (wrongly) believed that the Greek thinkers had read the Bible and used it as a basis for their ideas. Another Apologist was Tatian who was Justin's disciple. Another was Theophilus of Antioch. And another was Athenagoras who I also named in #664. Such men wrote extensively about their beliefs and we can see that they were not always in agreement with each other. Their ideas and reasonings were developed further by later generations. But in these early times the Apologists were a long way from formulating the trinity doctrine which was to become the orthodox teaching of Christianity centuries later.

On page 100 my book it says:

"... for all of them the description "God the Father" connoted, not the first Person of the Holy Trinity, but the one Godhead considered as author of whatever exists;"

 

[IAmZamzam]

These creative days cannot just be ordinary 24 hour days. Why? Because the seventh day has not yet ended (Psalms 95:11; Hebrews 4:4-5). We are still in that seventh day which has continued since Adam's creation. This being so, the seventh "day" must be thousands of years in duration. And reasonably, the same would be true of the other six.

Also because were the days literal then there would have already been several mornings and evenings before any distinction existed between day and night.

 

[Hiroshi]

Also because were the days literal then there would have already been several mornings and evenings before any distinction existed between day and night.

Thank you for your supporting comment Yahya.

Just to add a few more details to the Genesis account, I want to mention that the "darkness" spoken of in Genesis 1:2 was, according to that verse, only pervading the earth's surface, not all of space. We can note that most known planets characteristically have an opaque atmosphere if they have any substantial atmosphere at all. Dust, debris and obscuring gases would need to be cleared before sunlight could filter through to the planet's surface. And that was the action that God took when he said: "Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3). The Hebrew verb used in this passage can denote that this was a gradual process. It began on day one (perhaps beginning as a diffused glow) but it was not until day four that the sun, moon and stars could clearly be seen from the earth's surface as described in Genesis 1:14-19.

 

[Al-manar]

Thank you all ( for your input ,and the spirit of mutual respect .......
some posts raised some questions that will be answered in the right time.......

......................................

Origin of Christianity P:2


christianity is a theology that has basic concepts ,In order to understand it we should deal with each concept .....

previously we dealt with the issue of taking Jesus as God , and how I found out that the Quran gives a hint to the origin of the matter , in a way that surprised me.....

one of the verses that seemed to me challenging and difficult to grasp it was:

the Quran - 5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

I used to believe that the new pagan converts to christianity ,influenced it in the matter of taking Jesus as God .... and that made the verse vague for me !!

It raised 2 difficulties

why mentioning the sons of Israel ,if they are innocent of the dogma ?

why to warn them ,if they are believed to be true monotheists,of shirk ?

after reading the work of the new school that reinvestigate the matter ....the wall that was hindering me from getting the direct meaning of the verse was broken...

the verse again:

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise.


Tthe meaning is simple :

Though Jesus(pbuh) himself warned the children of Israel of shirk , they said he is God ....
it wasn't the Romans neither the worshippers of krishna etc... who called him God .....
It was the Jews themselves ......

the verse could ,not only suggest that it is the Jews who began believing Jesus as God,but also could suggest that they began that in early period ...

what made them think so? we have answered that previously (more details related coming

soon)...

........

now the next step .. another verse and another guideline:

where christianity came from? conspiracy? intentional lies?

the Quran would DEFINE it and says ,It is (DESIRES)....


The beliefs of its believers are based on DESIRES:

Quran 2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.


Quran 5:48 And unto thee [O Prophet] have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.


Those desires were produced by the writers of the Bible whom their exegesis not only led them astray , overstepping the bounds, but also misled many of their readers..


Quran 5:77 Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

The beauty of such imaginary desires would block its believers from the truth

Holy Quran 28:50 If they do not respond to you, you will know that they follow only their own desires. Who is further astray than the one who follows his own desires with no guidance from God? Truly God does not guide those who do wrong.

Holy Quran 47:14Can those who follow clear proof from their Lord be compared to those whose foul deeds are made to seem alluring to them, those who follow their own desires?

.......................

what desires the Quran is refering at? why vain desires and not revealed divine truth?

you will be surprised when you find out that such desires weren't the product of such supposed evil pagan conspirators who corrupted Judaism and the true message of Jesus...but rather the faulty exegesis of those Jews who dreamt of the final victory and the paradise on Earth that is soon to be witnessed during their final generation ...


we will get the Quran apart and let the bible speak for itself

till next post

peace

 

[Hiroshi]

Thank you all ( for your input ,and the spirit of mutual respect .......
some posts raised some questions that will be answered in the right time.......

......................................

Origin of Christianity P:2


christianity is a theology that has basic concepts ,In order to understand it we should deal with each concept .....

previously we dealt with the issue of taking Jesus as God , and how I found out that the Quran gives a hint to the origin of the matter , in a way that surprised me.....

one of the verses that seemed to me challenging and difficult to grasp it was:

the Quran - 5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

This echoes what was written in the New International Version at John 10:31-36:

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

According to this rendering Jesus clearly denies any accusation that he claims to be Almighty God.

 

[Saad17]

This echoes what was written in the New International Version at John 10:31-36:

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

According to this rendering Jesus clearly denies any accusation that he claims to be Almighty God.

Yes, indeed the Jewish people at that time were honest and righteous people yes?

 

[Saad17]

Also connect the missing piece.

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Here Jesus (PBUH) is clearly telling them that he only claims to be Son of God which can mean that he is a servant of God, a prophet also.

 

[Hiroshi]

Yes, indeed the Jewish people at that time were honest and righteous people yes?

Not the ones speaking with Jesus in this passage apparently.

 

[Hiroshi]

Also connect the missing piece.

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Here Jesus (PBUH) is clearly telling them that he only claims to be Son of God which can mean that he is a servant of God, a prophet also.

I believe that I can agree with everything you say here.

 

[Al-manar]

Peace

before writing anything related to the topic ....

I'd like to say a due good bye for a good christian member who used to particiapte in the muslim christian dialogue here in the board...

Grace-seeker ,though we disagreed mostly ,you will be always remembered as the wise debater who knows how to led a civil discussion .......

I understand the circumstances that won't enable you to have a time to participate with us .....
I hope that the due word of goodbye to you would also represent the moderate muslims of the board who find no difficulty dealing kindly and justly with the peaceful christians ...hence applying the Quranic principle in verse 60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
................................................................

 

[Al-manar]

well,

the next items will be based on the descriptive Quranic terms (desire and excess) ....... I found out the quranic description of christianity as based on (desires and excess)to be sound ..so the next items would be under those two categories .....

what were the desires of the writers of the New testaments ? scriptural origin of such desires?

1st Desire,(The Messiah)

we would begin with that concept as it is the key that would open the box of all the other desires ...

What is the concept of the messiah ? in one word it is a wish , desire,such desire didn't begin with the New testament but much older ......

the issue is complicated and needs introduction ........ we need to get an outline of the ancient Jewish history:

http://ancienthistory.about.com

The period of the Judges begins after the the 40 years in the wilderness described in Exodus. Moses dies before reaching Canaan. Once the Hebrews reach the promised land, they find they are in frequent conflict with the neighboring regions. They need leaders to guide them in battle. The leaders are the judges who also handle more traditional judicial matters as well. Joshua comes first.
There is archaeological evidence of Israel at this time. It comes from the Merneptah Stele, which is currently dated to 1209 B.C
.......

The period of the united monarchy begins when the judge Samuel reluctantly anoints Saul as king of the tribes of Israel. During Saul's kingship, the Philistines attack and a young shepherd named David volunteers for a one-on-one with the fiercest of the Philistines, a giant named Goliath. With a single stone from his slingshot, David fells the Philistine and wins a reputation that outshines Saul's. When Saul dies, David replaces him as king and when David dies, his son by Bathsheba becomes the wise King Solomon. This information is basically from the Bible, with only occasional support from archaeology.

After Solomon, the United Monarchy falls apart.Jerusalem is the capital of Judah, the southern Kingdom, which is led by Rehoboam. Its inhabitants are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Simeon (and some Levi). Simeon and Judah later merge.
Jeroboam leads a revolt of the northern tribes to form the Kingdom of Israel. The 9 tribes that make up Israel are Zebulun, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Menasseh, Ephraim, Reuben and Gad (and some Levi). The capital of Israel is Samaria.

(Israel falls to the Assyrians in 721; Judah falls to the Babylonians in 597.)
In 722 - Assyrians, under Shalmaneser, and then under Sargon, conquer Israel and destroy Samaria. Jews are exiled.
In 612 - Nabopolassar of Babylonia destroys Assyria.
In 587 - Nebuchadnezzar II seizes Jerusalem. The Temple is destroyed.
In 586 - Babylonia conquers Judah. Exile to Babylon.
Diaspora: 722 (Israel) and 586 (Judah).
In 539 - the Babylonian Empire falls to Persia which is ruled by Cyrus.
In 537 - Cyrus allows Jews from Babylon back into Jerusalem.
From 550-333 - The Persian Empire rules Israel.
From 520-515 - Second Temple is built.
After Alexander dies, Ptolemy I Soter takes Egypt and becomes king of Palestine in 305.
250. - The beginning of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.
198. - Seleucid King Antiochus III (Antiochus the Great) ousts Ptolemy V from Judah and Samaria.
63 B.C. - Pompey makes the region of Judah/Israel a client kingdom of Rome.
6 A.D. - Augustus makes it a Roman province (Judaea).
66 - 73. - Revolt.
70. - Romans occupy Jerusalem. Titus destroys the Second Temple.
......

what were the Jewish expectations before the mission of Jesus ?

till next post

 

[Hiroshi]

well,

what were the Jewish expectations before the mission of Jesus ?

Many likely expected that the Messiah would become a powerful king that would overthrow Roman oppression and go on to conquer the world for the Jews to establish God's kingdom.

Luke 19:11 says: "While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once."

And John 6:14-15 says: "After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself."

God's kingdom was to come in the far future but the Jews were impatient and wanted Jesus to be a political king for them immediately.

 

[Al-manar]

In order to check the varied expectations of the Jews before the mission of Jesus we need to visit the sources of Jewish thought before 70 C . E .


The Jews were expecting :

A- A prophet

could be :

1- A special prophet ;one like moses

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

The Jews used to include such expectation alongside the hope of the messiah king up till the time of Jesus

John 1:21
They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”


some Jews after seeing the signs Jesus performed thought of him as such special prophet

John 6:14
After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

John 7:40
On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

Acts 3:20
and He may send Jesus Christ who before hath been preached to you, whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age. 22`For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you; 23and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;


2- Old prophet came back to the scene:

Luke 9:8 Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, 8 others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life.

Mark 8:28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah."

Matthew 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

3- A prophet:

the way some Jews reacted with Jesus according to the new testament ,shows that they were open to accept the idea of a new prophet ,and it seems that they wouldn't make it conditional that the prophet must has been mentioned in a prediction in the old testament...

Matthew 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

John 9:17
Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.” The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

John 4:19
“Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.


Luke 7:16
Then he went up and touched the bier they were carrying him on, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” 15 The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. 16 They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” 17 This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country.


B- ELIJAH:


both the bible and Quran agree on him as a prophet

in the Quran He told his people to come back to the worship of the Lord and to leave the worship of idols.

Quran 37: 123 Verily Elias is one of the apostles. When he said to his people: "Will you not fear God? "Will ye call upon Ba'al and leave the Best of Creators, God, your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"................They denied him, and will surely be brought to punishment,Except the sincere and devoted Servants of God (among them).And We left his (memory) for posterity.


according to the bible ,Elijah taken bodily into Heaven .... Elijah,while, in company with Elisha , approaches the Jordan. He rolls up his mantle and strikes the water (2 Kings 2:8). The water immediately divides and Elijah and Elisha cross on dry land. Suddenly, a chariot of fire and horses of fire appear and Elijah is lifted up to heaven in a whirlwind. As Elijah is lifted up, his mantle falls to the ground and Elisha picks it up. (wiki)

Centuries after his(so called) departure, the Jewish nation awaits the coming of Elijah to precede the coming of the Messiah

Malachi 4:5
"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."


In Apocrypha

Sirach 48:9
How awesome are you, ELIJAH! Whose glory is equal to yours?5You brought a dead man back to life from the nether world, by the will of the LORD.6You sent kings down to destruction, and nobles, from their beds of sickness.7You heard threats at Sinai, at Horeb avenging judgments.8You anointed kings who should inflict vengeance, and a prophet as your successor.


some people thought of Jesus as Elijah came back to Earth

Matthew 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."


some Jews thought of John the baptist as Elijah ,but he corrected them

John 1:21 And they asked him (John the baptist ), What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not.



till next post

 

[Al-manar]

though John denied being Elijah ,yet Jesus says he is(Matthew 11:13-14) - "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."

I don't think that Jesus(IF he ever said so) thought of John as Elijah incarnated ...but it seems the meaning intended, is that, John is very similar to Elijah

"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he (John the baptist) who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17).

there is here a problem ....It is not a problem of contradiction as it is oftenly suggested.... but rather another problem ,Elijah taken alive, bodily into heaven,according to (2 Kings 2:8). and will be sent to Earth once again ,according to Malachi 4:5 ...

1- If he was taken alive to heaven and God promised to get him back to earth in future,then it is logical that it is him literally who will come,none else whatever similar to him....

2- let's ignore the literal meaning and assume for the sake of argument that John the baptist is a fullfilment to Malachi 4:5 .... what did he fullfil?

A - The passage claims that he will come to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers ,and it doesn't require a great deal of wisdom to realize that such thing has never been materialized ....

B- The passage claims he will come before the great and dreadful day of the LORD , again a concept that has never been materialized .

to make the matter worse, according to mark ,Jesus said ,that the excution of John the baptist was prophecised in the old testament !!!

(Mark 9:13) But I (Jesus) tell you, Elijah (aka John the baptist)has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”

where is such prophecy regarding John the baptist aka Elijah being executed ? you can searach the old testament till day of judgment,and never find such claimed prophecy

IF there is no prophecy ,then we can safely assume 3 possiblities

1- the prophecy was there but been deleted due to textual corruption.

2- Jesus decieved the listeners claiming falsely a prophecy fulfillment.

3- The writers of the new testament put in the mouth of Jesus such false words.




till next post