Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Hugo]

There is nothing about either stories that stands out as odd and the point of either stories isn't about the number of years (although in an of itself is a few other miracles) nor whether the messengers heart was cleansed or not. That isn't the fulcrum on which Islam rests! Have you read suret al-kahf? it is odd to me because I have written on it extensively.. Do you want to spend your time learning or spend your time throwing the same repeated tantrum on each subsequent post?

The fact that one can extract lessons and teaching from any writing is obvious, the point of these posts is about whether these events are literally true as some in this thread have claimed. It may seem a simple point but it is not because it has some bearing on interpretation and credibility.

How does that compare to mangod beseeching himself the night before he immolated for something as anticlimactic as eating your sins so you are free to live a debauched so long as your god died for you?

Can you just for once explain about 'eating sins' and 'immolating' as I have no idea what you are talking about and I guess no one else does either.

all the bestGo ahead share your understanding of evolution(speciation) using the scientifically proposed methods I'll be waiting!

Let me be clear here YOU do not accept evolution, is that what you are saying and that it is an Islamic position/doctrine and therefore Adam and Eve is literal truth?

 

[جوري]

What difference would it make, you are disposed to not believe and to say the Bible has not textual integrity is simply foolish and ignorant. You repeated claim the Qu'ran has textual Integrity but many many books show this to be false - why not look at say "in Search of The original Qu'ran" by Mondher Sfar and be honest about answering the questions he poses.

We have shown you and repeatedly where the bibles have no textual integrity and dubious authors. We have actually cemented our arguments with evidence, which you have simply deemed a different picture of your book from different authors. Well frankly if I am going to take a man for a god, then we need something more substantial than a democratic vote on the nature of the man you deem god..

I did notice that you abandoned your old thread where I requested you show me errors from the Quran, your two pathetic attempts did blow up badly in your face, instead of walking away with your tail between your leg you copied some stuff in Arabic and asked me to define it so you can use it against the Quran, and I asked you, since you are so confident and 'scholarly' to actually cement what you are saying from the book. Again you have failed to do so.. all you have up your sleeve unfortunately and repeatedly is too many pathetic attempts at the same query which has been answered a thousand times over in a precise historical fashion, but you are hoping for a different audience perhaps with your level of ignorance to give you answers that you can use in a negative fashion.. The same way you look for one translation out of zillions to echo your sentiments, not only forgetting that the Quran has been preserved in the original tongue memorized word by word by a large chunk of the Muslim population, but forgoing logic all together. I truly pity you, because with each subsequent post you prove to me how pathetic and desperate you are!

As is normal with you post you simply cannot understand what people are saying. I mentioned the cave and the prophets heart being washed because some in this thread have claimed that there is no fiction or analogy in Islam, that it is all true and by extension everyone else is wrong you in contrast have said there is. My point was to try to establish what you regarded as factual as opposed to allegorical - but you are unable to answer, you are simply afraid to admit anything. You cannot explain how one decides what is fact and what is allegorical.

I have already told you there is nothing fictional about either stories and I have repeatedly requested that is you want scholarship in Islam that you do it through proper means.. that is your answer. I have told you repeatedly that scholarship doesn't come from orientalist books or even religious books, you need to study in an academic fashion. I can't become a dpctor by reading a couple of books of old wives tales, and I can't become a doctor simply reading medical books on my own!
It is really not that difficult to comprehend what I am saying--I am writing in English!

What I or you believe is largely about faith because one cannot establish as fact some of the most basic things. This is what you continually fail to understand that any logic is based on premises and premises to do with God and revelation cannot be shown to be true or false. If you know a way of proving things to do with God share it with us or are you simply deluded

The matter of truth is established in the story by a few events which I have listed prior one is the mathematical aspect of their stay in the cave in a lunar calendar-- The prophet was an illiterate man he wasn't sitting there calculating what your atheist pal barney couldn't do modern day, millenniums ago, and that, the money they have used was old and as such their brand of miracle was a sign to those who dealt with them, as such the verse tells you in its closure of that story, that their number or their stay in the cave isn't what you the modern reader should have gleaned from the story, rather the four things I afore mentioned!
want to try again and have a nice comparative of common sense and logic as per your bible and per thread title?

all the best

 

[جوري]

The fact that one can extract lessons and teaching from any writing is obvious, the point of these posts is about whether these events are literally true as some in this thread have claimed. It may seem a simple point but it is not because it has some bearing on interpretation and credibility.

The events were never obvious to you given your query exactly a couple of times before if not more as to what the point to the story is.. if you knew the point of the story, then why do you keep asking? especially when I have quoted you from the Quran itself and repeatedly that their stay or their number isn't the point to the story?
as per the rest of your query I have already answered that in the last post!

Can you just for once explain about 'eating sins' and 'immolating' as I have no idea what you are talking about and I guess no one else does either.

immolate = sacrifice
eating sins = all your shenanigan about how god came to redeem you by self-immolating.. really make use of the dictionary!

Let me be clear here YOU do not accept evolution, is that what you are saying and that it is an Islamic position/doctrine and therefore Adam and Eve is literal truth?

I don't accept speciation, I accept evolution to denote adaptation, YES I ACCEPT THE ADAM AND EVE STORY and asking you in the process that if you don't that you construct it to me otherwise in a precise specific fashion. I want you to put all those cute little things that seem to function on their own volition and turn it into a complex being, give the being sentience and make two of it for reproductive purposes.. Yes we know Jesus didn't do it.. if Evolution did it, then go ahead and carry us through the process!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

We have shown you and repeatedly where the bibles have no textual integrity and dubious authors. We have actually cemented our arguments with evidence, which you have simply deemed a different picture of your book from different authors. Well frankly if I am going to take a man for a god, then we need something more substantial than a democratic vote on the nature of the man you deem god..

You are simply assuming that your arguments are always correct and irrefutable. Let me show you what I mean:

I have shown you repeatedly where the Qu'ran has no textual integrity and its author is dubious. I have actually cemented my arguments with evidence, which you have simply deemed a different picture of your book ... Well frankly if I am going to take a man in a cave getting a message supposedly from God then we need something more substantial than dogma.. I requested you show me errors from the Bible, your pathetic attempts blow up badly in your face, instead of walking away with your tail between your legs you copy from some web site ... all you have up your sleeve unfortunately and repeatedly is too many pathetic attempts at the same insulting and untrue remarks about Jesus and the Bible which has been answered a thousand times over in a precise historical fashion ..​

​

If you wish to do this more formally, then start an thread say called "Textual Integrity the Bible V The Qu'ran" and let us examine the evidence.

I have already told you there is nothing fictional about either stories and I have repeatedly requested that is you want scholarship in Islam that you do it through proper means..

Thank for this now I know where you stand, whatever is written in the Qu'ran or other Qu'ranic literature is fact no matter how absurd it might sound. So you bring no criticality to the issue and not an iota of interpretive skill, that seems to be your position.

 

[Hugo]

I don't accept speciation, I accept evolution to denote adaptation, YES I ACCEPT THE ADAM AND EVE STORY and asking you in the process that if you don't that you construct it to me otherwise in a precise specific fashion. I want you to put all those cute little things that seem to function on their own volition and turn it into a complex being, give the being sentience and make two of it for reproductive purposes.. Yes we know Jesus didn't do it.. if Evolution did it, then go ahead and carry us through the process!
all the best

This is an interesting point, you accept God created Adam and Eve but there cannot possibly be a single grain of evidence for that act. If you wish to treat it as fact and deny evolutionary processes, the fossil record, DNA evidence, the age of the earth etc then that is a choice for you.

 

[aadil77]

This is an interesting point, you accept God created Adam and Eve but there cannot possibly be a single grain of evidence for that act. If you wish to treat it as fact and deny evolutionary processes, the fossil record, DNA evidence, the age of the earth etc then that is a choice for you.

What are you a christian or an atheist?

 

[جوري]

You are simply assuming that your arguments are always correct and irrefutable. Let me show you what I mean:​

There is not much by way of correct and incorrect when you are looking at passages on the same characters that don't reconcile with each other!

I have shown you repeatedly where the Qu'ran has no textual integrity and its author is dubious.

You haven't.. what you have attempted was to copy hearsay which really back fired on you and as such the challenge really still stands, you don't have to make a separate thread when you can pick up exactly where you have left off with my challenge the last time. I told you that I'll be waiting for the errors and contradiction .. you ran away after two failed attempts.. Only you can be faulted for that!

I have actually cemented my arguments with evidence, which you have simply deemed a different picture of your book

I am yet to see that.. plagiarizing my writing is no substitute for doing the work regrettably-- and I find it kind of laughable that this is the best you can do!

... Well frankly if I am going to take a man in a cave getting a message supposedly from God then we need something more substantial than dogma

And something far more substantial than dogma as per the Quran itself was given-- I have written above and repeatedly that for our time our lesson is to learn wisdom from trials of faith, trials of wisdom, trials of power, and trials of wealth even an atheist would find nothing dogmatic with a little twist on the 'faith' aspect.... I so hate to repeat myself because you are so incapable of abstract thoughts.. and no one can be faulted for your failure to read plagiarize my writing as if you have something of substance to impart-- I keep asking you time and again to reconcile for me how that at all compares to your central dogma of a dying man/god.. which funny enough you are willing to accept and believe over the creation of Adam and eve.. are you for real?

.. I requested you show me errors from the Bible, your pathetic attempts blow up badly in your face, instead of walking away with your tail between your legs you copy from some web site

Here are a few more errors if you missed them the first time around:

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" 2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul" 2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..." 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..." 1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..." 2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..." 2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem" Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem" 1 Samuel 31:4-6 says "...Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and...died with him. So Saul died..." 2 Samuel 21:12 says "...the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa." Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death] Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..." Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli" James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." Gen 6:20 says "Of fowls after their kind and of cattle [etc.]...two of every sort shall come unto thee..." Gen 7:2,3 says "Of every clean beast thou shall take to thee by sevens...Of fowls also of the air by sevens..." Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."

... all you have up your sleeve unfortunately and repeatedly is too many pathetic attempts at the same insulting and untrue remarks about Jesus and the Bible which has been answered a thousand times over in a precise historical fashion ..

Jesus isn't a mangod who prayed to himself in Gethsemane the night before he forsake himself at the cross succumbing to a couple of provincial villagers? we are making that up?

If you wish to do this more formally, then start an thread say called "Textual Integrity the Bible V The Qu'ran" and let us examine the evidence.

We have had multitudes of said threads, you've walked away having learned nothing, and still unable to reconcile as per above why your bibles say so many contradictory things! start with the above given and then let us know why we should accept a man/god if we can't trust what sequence of events actually took place!

Thank for this now I know where you stand, whatever is written in the Qu'ran or other Qu'ranic literature is fact no matter how absurd it might sound. So you bring no criticality to the issue and not an iota of interpretive skill, that seems to be your position.

No interpretive skills? that is fresh coming from a guy who thinks a three-headed god = to one god, and that said god can die and suckle and da mn his earth for not bearing him fruit and choose ineffectual apostles that can't shoulder the responsibility after his death so he hovers around to whisper to his nemesis to abrogate all his previous commandments. You are as capable of scholarship as a monkey of is capable of psychoanalysis!

This is an interesting point, you accept God created Adam and Eve but there cannot possibly be a single grain of evidence for that act. If you wish to treat it as fact and deny evolutionary processes, the fossil record, DNA evidence, the age of the earth etc then that is a choice for you.

I am asking you to present your 'grains of evidence for that act. I want you to show me how the origin of life started to a complex being to a sentient being and two of said being for the purpose of procreation and then do it for every specie in existence .. Do you think you are capable of that?.. I don't know what Fossil record means, or DNA evidence .. what DNA evidence do you speak of, do you just like throwing terms you don't understand around?

DNA, tired, seizure, headache.. it is an unspecific term fellow, would you like to expand? DNA model, DNA fingerprinting, DNA structure, DNA replication, DNA polymerase, DNA ligase?
As usual I ask you if you have something of substance to impart, then do so, a single cell has organelles, nucleolus, nucleus, ribosomes, vesicles, rough endoplasmic reticulum, Golgi apparatus, Cytoskeleton, smooth endoplasmic reticulum, mitochondria, vacuole, cytoplasm, lysosome, centrioles within centrosome to name a few, each with a specific function.

I am asking you to show me how said things evolved from a single cell 'scientifically' to give us a complex sentient being of male and female and of difference species.. would you like me to repeat the question or are you going to throw out 'DNA' and think yourself oh so wise?

I'll be waiting for your thorough construct the modern theory of evolution through both statistical physics, and probabilities of assembling a primitive cell on earth.. Do you think you can carry both those functions in a scholarly scientific fashion and not give us the usual run of the mill crap you memorize but have no thought as to how it actually works or how it came together?

all the best

 

[جوري]

What are you a christian or an atheist?

What he is is a fickle fellow, who can't defend his own beliefs 'mangod/three headedgod'-- and can't defend those beliefs he follows as 'scientific' but likes to strut and hide behind colorful words and false bravado in hopes that folks will be duped.. it is essentially the entire christian doctrine.. if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with B.S.
I'll be waiting for him to defend the mathematics, and the science behind what he professes.. so pull up a chair and be ready to be amused.. you know when push comes to shove they go excerpt a link from talkorigin and reference you to it, but can't defend the contents in an experimental scientific fashion to save their dear life!

He unfortunately is a dime a dozen like the rest of which we have seen and the likes of which we are to see.

The age of pioneers is over so ready yourself to have your senses dulled with the usual drivel!

 

[aadil77]

I don't get why he wants to bother again with a 'Bible vs Quran thread', I would have thought he'd learnt from his complete failure on his other thread

Honestly Hugo you will get hammered about the non existant 'textual integrity' in the bible, you just need to look through the 'requesting answers from christians' thread

 

[جوري]

I don't get why he wants to bother again with a 'Bible vs Quran thread', I would have thought he'd learnt from his complete failure on his other thread

Honestly Hugo you will get hammered about the non existant 'textual integrity' in the bible, you just need to look through the 'requesting answers from christians' thread

The things that he needs to establish to have some semblance of credibility is why he'd be willing to accept an ineffectual dying god as truth and central theme to his religion because it says so in his bible, when his bible is wrought with error and isn't from god as per their own admittance. Why he is willing to believe atheistic views on the origin of life that loans itself to belief than a factual experimental science in lieu of believing in the story of creation. How he sorts through literal and allegorical or even the historically accurate.

and since he can't and won't, then he should stay out of this thread and let the OP do his thing without butting in with his angry seething self to say things he can't back up as usual in an attempt to derail this thread from its actual purpose.. For once I'd like to follow a thread of this kind from beginning to end without his pathetic all too frequent interferences citing his objections which have been amply answered!

______________________________________________________________________

I think at this point I'll ignore him and await Al-Manar to share his thorough comparative study without further interruption.. at completion of this thread all the irrelevant crap can be deleted so that it would be index style with related commentary without the usual platitudes!

 

[aadil77]

I think at this point I'll ignore him and await Al-Manar to share his thorough comparative study without further interruption.. at completion of this thread all the irrelevant crap can be deleted so that it would be index style with related commentary without the usual platitudes!

you won't be able to resist sis, theres no doubt he'll add in some snidy comments and suggestions into his posts, can't let em get away with that


btw mashAllah your english vocab is miles ahead of mine, most of the time I read your posts I have to google up the meaning of some word or another

 

[Hugo]

What are you a christian or an atheist?

What an odd questions. I present evidence about evolutionary processes and that makes me an atheist? Don't you have any trust in science, you think it incompatible with religion or faith, surely if God is the creator he made the world like it is and how science finds it or do you cherry pick the bits that prop up your beliefs?

 

[Hugo]

What he is is a fickle fellow, who can't defend his own beliefs 'mangod/three headedgod'-- and can't defend those beliefs he follows as 'scientific' but likes to strut and hide behind colorful words and false bravado in hopes that folks will be duped.. it is essentially the entire christian doctrine.. if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with B.S. I'll be waiting for him to defend the mathematics, and the science behind what he professes.. so pull up a chair and be ready to be amused.. you know when push comes to shove they go excerpt a link from talkorigin and reference you to it, but can't defend the contents in an experimental scientific fashion to save their dear life!
He unfortunately is a dime a dozen like the rest of which we have seen and the likes of which we are to see. The age of pioneers is over so ready yourself to have your senses dulled with the usual drivel!

As usual you are unable to defend your position without the use of ad hominum arguments and now you encourage others to do the same with a kind of collective paranoia. But let us see how this comparative study works out, let us see what purpose it has for you, let us see if we can explore what the scriptures mean.

 

[Hugo]

I don't get why he wants to bother again with a 'Bible vs Quran thread', I would have thought he'd learnt from his complete failure on his other thread. Honestly Hugo you will get hammered about the non existant 'textual integrity' in the bible, you just need to look through the 'requesting answers from christians' thread

Well if you think that let's get started, I am happy to be hammered as I have an open mind. If I look through this board say to find information on Biblical writings there is almost zero from any authoritative source and invariably what is there is copied from other un-checkable web sites with the same same old bit of information circulating - I am not guessing here as I use software to check all postings so I know where they comes from. You will rarely if ever find me copying a web site and what I write is out of detailed research, in contrast there are others who do nothing but copy websites or repeat the same mantra about for example an immolating God or eating sins but these people can NEVER explain what they are talking about.

 

[Hugo]

Adam - Unlike the Quran that views Adam as been taught the names of everything by God, the bible would view Adam as the one who chose the names of the creatures!

Genesis 2:19-20 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. and Qu'ran 2.31 He taught Adam all the names of everything. (Quran 2:31).

I am not sure here why you cut short the Qu'ranic verse and it seem a very uneven passage wandering between heaven, Paradise, Angels and the abrupt entry of Adam into the text, Adam seemingly sent down after being taught the names of everything while in heaven and some how ends with the children of Israel in 40. This to me does not sound coherent where the Bible passage is totally coherent - so can you explain it? I note you have only here highlighted the difference in naming and being taught the names, do you think there is anything to learn from that as to me it sounds relatively unimportant.

According to the bible Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame, according to the Quran when they disobeyed they became naked and felt ashamed.
Genesis 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. Quran 20:121 In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.

I cannot see any difference and you seem to have stopped reading in Gen 2 so your analysis here is misleading - both texts seem just to speak of an awareness of wrong doing. This is made clear in Gen 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves".

The seductive argument of Satan in the Quranic narrative is that God prohibited the tree for not giving the chance to Adam and Eve to be in higher ranks as angels or eteranal beings ....,while the bible would view Satan as mere repeating the words of God seeing the the prohibition if they eat it their eyes will be opened, and they will be like God, knowing good and evil."

You have not suggest a Qu'ranic text here, were you thinking of 20:115 onwards? I don't see in this text anything about gaining higher rank as its clear that Angels bowed to them so I am unsure what you are saying here.

Man is better than the Angels? Though the fact that Angels bowed to Adam in respect ,and God taught him the names that the Angels were ignorant of ,it seems Adam felt himself inferior to the angels ,and been seduced by Satan who would argue that the tree would make Adam and his wife Angels etc...

The bible too ... Psalm 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.

I think your analysis is almost correct in that Adam was seduced into thinking he would gain something, something that God had withheld though we might disagree as to what that was. However, the verse in the Psalm is a very very well known one and is understood by every Christian to be referring prophetically to Jesus and Jews would see it as referring to the messiah. It is also possible that Adam speaks figuratively of sinful man and Jesus the one who comes to put things right - indeed there is a verses in 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive".

 

[جوري]

you won't be able to resist sis, theres no doubt he'll add in some snidy comments and suggestions into his posts, can't let em get away with that


btw mashAllah your english vocab is miles ahead of mine, most of the time I read your posts I have to google up the meaning of some word or another

you don't need vocabulary when arguing with a fool all you need is scholarly precision and understanding of history and then just watch it all unravel.
-- he is neither able to defend his religious or even so-called 'scientific' stand.. the best he can do is resort to his usual temper tantrum, self-collection and then watch him re-work his one trick pony.

like I said let's wait for Al-Manar to present his work and then at the end we can report the gadflies and see if mods can take out the trash!

 

[جوري]

As usual you are unable to defend your position without the use of ad hominum arguments and now you encourage others to do the same with a kind of collective paranoia. But let us see how this comparative study works out, let us see what purpose it has for you, let us see if we can explore what the scriptures mean.

I'll be waiting for you to address in a scholarly fashion the errors in your bible presented on the previous page and how you reconcile that with other aspects in your beliefs like the man/god triple head being a factual and not an allegorical event.. as well I'll be waiting on your paper on the probability of randomly assembling a primitive cell to a more complex sentient being!
until then I suggest you remove yourself from the dialogue here to spare your dignity!
all the best

 

[Al-manar]

I am not sure here why you cut short the Qu'ranic verse

Have you read the context and found out that I took it out of context?

and it seem a very uneven passage wandering between heaven, Paradise, Angels and the abrupt entry of Adam into the text, Adam seemingly sent down after being taught the names of everything while in heaven and some how ends with the children of Israel in 40.

Note: my posts specified at the textaul disagreements between Quran VS bible , the issue of lingustic structure of both the books is offtopic.... so if you have more to say regarding the literally style save it to another occasion ,cause I'm not gonna comment from now to anything related to such category....
If you wish to intiate a thread about that ,I promise you to be the first participant....

I note you have only here highlighted the difference in naming and being taught the names, do you think there is anything to learn from that as to me it sounds relatively unimportant.

My work is concerned with the textual disagreements(whether minor or major) between Quran and Bible ....

both texts seem just to speak of an awareness of wrong doing.

yes they are but disagreed on the details which I exposed..

I don't see in this text anything about gaining higher rank as its clear that Angels bowed to them so I am unsure what you are saying here.

Holy Quran [7:20]But Satan tempted them so that he might reveal to them the private parts of their bodies which they had never seen before. He told them: "Your Lord has forbidden you to approach this tree only to prevent you from becoming angels or immortals."

the verse in the Psalm is a very very well known one and is understood by every Christian to be referring prophetically to Jesus

It is understood why ALL christians believe the passage to to be referring prophetically to Jesus, they have no other choice but to follow the writer of Hebrews(which they believe to be inspired) personal speculation,
Hebrews 2:6-8
6But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 7You made him a little[a] lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor 8 and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.


Had the writer of hebrew never mentioned such (pesher type) speculation ,I doubt that any christian would ever render the meaning the faulty way the writer of hebrew got.......

In order to understand the meaning of such passage (and all other supposed reference to jesus in the Old Testament) you should read the passage for yourself ,instead of letting the gospel writers read it for you !....
what does the passage tell?

“When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.” Psalm 8:3-8

These passages clearly show that God has appointed mankind in general, to reign over his creation.

The Passage ,without any reasonable doubt, is recalling the Genesis account of creation where God gave male and female authority to rule the earth and over all his creatures:

“Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’ God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.’” Genesis 1:26-28

The writer of Hebrew imposed Jesus on the passage!!
and christians are adviced strongly ,not to use such passage as an example of prophecy fulfillment...

more Exposition of the New Testament misapplication of the Old Testament will be posted in details later within the item (prophecy) inshaAllah....

 

[Hugo]

I just point out that most of the Al-manar quote below is copied from the answering Islam website.

It is understood why ALL christians believe the passage to to be referring prophetically to Jesus, they have no other choice but to follow the writer of Hebrews(which they believe to be inspired) personal speculation,
Hebrews 2:6-8 6 But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 7. You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor 8 and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

I cannot see how it follows that "Christians have no other choice" and what is written in the Psalms and Hebrews is like any other writings a matter of interpretation. No one forces me to believe anything.

Had the writer of hebrew never mentioned such (pesher type) speculation ,I doubt that any christian would ever render the meaning the faulty way the writer of hebrew got.......

Pesher is just one set of rules for interpretation and no reason that I can see to suggest that the writer of the Hebrews was using it. However, what is said here in your quote is nothing more than opinion and a misguided one and it is a very odd idea that you suggest here that in all of history one ONE person notice this verse and drew an interpretation about it - possible but very very unlikely. One might argue that say the first 5 chapters of Romans endorse this interpretation.

In order to understand the meaning of such passage (and all other supposed reference to jesus in the Old Testament) you should read the passage for yourself ,instead of letting the gospel writers read it for you !.... what does the passage tell?

Perhaps you should take this advice yourself. Would you offer the same advice to Muslim, ignore the scholars and what they say and read the Qu'ran for themselves? The fact is that Christians read and re-read the OT and study it a great deal if for no other reason that it is impossible to read the NT with any understanding without doing that because there are so many references to it there.

“When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.” Psalm 8:3-8. These passages clearly show that God has appointed mankind in general, to reign over his creation. The Passage ,without any reasonable doubt, is recalling the Genesis account of creation where God gave male and female authority to rule the earth and over all his creatures. The writer of Hebrew imposed Jesus on the passage!! and christians are advised strongly ,not to use such passage as an example of prophecy fulfillment...

Just a couple of points here. Of course we are part of Gods creation and exercise some control over it but I doubt we rule over it the same sense we have here - we cannot for example, rule over birds and fish as far as I know. Of course you can interpret it that way if you wish but by the same token I can choose a different one.

Just one question here, do I take it from this that you accept the Genesis account of creation as scientifically accurate, particularly chapter 1?

 

[Al-manar]

I just point out that most of the Al-manar quote below is copied from website.

you mean the two lines commentary regarding Psalms 8?

you have no idea how many christians wrote the same commentary!!! any simple reader to Psalms and Genesis ,doesn't need a scientific discovery to understand that Genesis 1:26 and let them(humanity) rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’

means what it says and says what it means !!
the commentary is not such new or creative one to be referenced to a specific writer...

I cannot see how it follows that "Christians have no other choice" and what is written in the Psalms and Hebrews is like any other writings a matter of interpretation..[/COLOR]

What is in Hebrew is not a matter of interpretation ,it is itself interpretation of the psalm which as long as you are Christian (believing the words of Paul and others to be truly inspired) you have to accept it without any objection .

No one forces me to believe anything.

as long as you claim to be christian,you are forced to believe the words of Hebrews to be the ultimate truth...

Would you offer the same advice to Muslim, ignore the scholars and what they say and read the Qu'ran for themselves? .

Yes I would, but according to what kind of scholars ... If the scholars who interpret the Quran from the type of the writers of the New Testament eg; the radical Sufi who have gone to the extreme using the metaphorical style calling it al-baten (the hidden) ..... I would advice the Muslim not to ignore his interpreatation but to compare it with the apparent,literal meaning of the Quran....

the radical sufis and the pesher users(all new testament writers,and other jewish deviant sects eg,the Qumran community) are two sides of the same coin...

I doubt we rule over it the same sense we have here - we cannot for example, rule over birds and fish as far as I know.
.

If so then your problem is not with me, go argue with the writer of Genesis...

Of course you can interpret it that way if you wish but by the same token I can choose a different one.

Just one question here, do I take it from this that you accept the Genesis account of creation as scientifically accurate, particularly chapter 1?[/COLOR]

It is me who should ask that question!
if your answer yes ,then you should be corrected
if your answer no, then you are highly advised to put in your profile (agnostic or atheist) as your belief instead of christian...


well, next item will be investigating to the matter of (Ismael and Isaac) InshaAllah....