Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Hugo]

I think the bigger issue here is not that there are contradictions, nor even how many there are, but the mere fact that up until the point of the crucifixion the four Gospels remain primarily consistent with each other (for the most part—sort of) about the majority of key issues, and then once you get into the passion the contradictions suddenly start piling up out of nowhere and just keep on increasing until the resurrection saga at the end where hardly anything is consistent. It seems to strongly support the notion, held by Muslims, Gnostics, and many secular writers, that this part is the least reliable and most mythically embellished section of the whole saga.

This is not correct and you make it sound as if the stories of the crucifixion are all entirely different. That the are difficulties no one doubts but that does not mean that no reconciliation is possible. If you can be specific we can look at the accounts

 

[Woodrow]

Not quite sure what you mean here: truth in the sence that your faith is real or truth that Islam itself is truth?

In the context of Hiroshi'a post I am intending it to be evidence that Islam is true.

On a personal note I do not believe the numbers of people willing to die for any faith is proof of the truth of the religion, but it is strong evidence that the followers have strong faith it is true, Nearly if not all religions have had and still have followers who will gladly die before denying their faith.

My satiric form of saying Hiroshi's comment

Quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi View Post
We know from history that great numbers of early Christians perished in the Roman arenas rather than deny their faith. Christ's resurrection was a guarantee for them (Acts 17:31) They must have seen solid evidence of this, not false stories and myth.

is not solid evidence that Jesus(as)was resurrected.

 

[IAmZamzam]

People have died, very horribly, for a lot of different contradictory causes that they had no hard evidence for the truth of. Examples hardly seem necessary: we all know them.

 

[IAmZamzam]

This is not correct and you make it sound as if the stories of the crucifixion are all entirely different. That the are difficulties no one doubts but that does not mean that no reconciliation is possible. If you can be specific we can look at the accounts

I'm not biting this time, Hugo. Perhaps if someone else says that, but I'm not wasting my time with you again. And really, information on this is easily available and much of it has already been given even in this very thread. The only people--repeat, the only people--who do not see it for what it is are themselves Christian inerrantists who have blinded themselves with their so-called "reconciliations" of "difficulties". You have already seen the evidence in a hundred places, no doubt, put forth by people much more knowledgeable on the matter than myself, and if they did not persuade you to open your eyes then I cannot either, and even if I did you would still keep on arguing just for the sake of it as you always do.

 

[Hiroshi]

I believe you already know that most if not all Muslims are willing to die than deny our faith. Many have throughout the centuries and do so today.

Based on what you just said I assume you you will accept this as solid evidence of the truth of our belief.

There is more to it than that. There are many great deceivers who have misled people and made them willing to die for them. Let's take the case of Hitler in Nazi Germany during World War 2. In hindsight, I am sure that most would agree that his dictatorship was evil and brought about one of the greatest disasters of modern times.

But I have read in history that tens of thousands of Muslims were willing to fight and die for Hitler. By contrast, thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany were imprisoned and perished in the terrible Nazi concentration camps because they refused to support Hitler. They were a harmless, inoffensive group that showed unparalleled courage in the face of Nazi terror.

So who were the ones that really lived up to the truth?

 

[Zafran]

There is more to it than that. There are many great deceivers who have misled people and made them willing to die for them. Let's take the case of Hitler in Nazi Germany during World War 2. In hindsight, I am sure that most would agree that his dictatorship was evil and brought about one of the greatest disasters of modern times.

But I have read in history that tens of thousands of Muslims were willing to fight and die for Hitler. By contrast, thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany were imprisoned and perished in the terrible Nazi concentration camps because they refused to support Hitler. They were a harmless, inoffensive group that showed unparalleled courage in the face of Nazi terror.

So who were the ones that really lived up to the truth?

Terrible argument - lets say your right about the muslims but there were muslims from India fighting for the UK against Nazi Germany as well - You also have christians supporting the Nazis and fighting against the Nazis as well (same could be said about athiests) - you also have homosexuals and Gypsies dying in concentration camps as well - they must be right as well then.

You also have communists that refused to help Hitler as well - they died as well - they must be right as well.

If this is the best you got for missionery work your in trouble.

 

[IAmZamzam]

If this is the best you got for missionery work your in trouble.

It is, pretty much. Just ignore him.

 

[Hiroshi]

Terrible argument - lets say your right about the muslims but there were muslims from India fighting for the UK against Nazi Germany as well - You also have christians supporting the Nazis and fighting against the Nazis as well (same could be said about athiests) - you also have homosexuals and Gypsies dying in concentration camps as well - they must be right as well then.

You also have communists that refused to help Hitler as well - they died as well - they must be right as well.

If this is the best you got for missionery work your in trouble.

Sure, let's get things in perspective. Many people supported Hitler for different reasons. Hitler got Germany out of the recession and back on its feet. They began to see prosperity and a strong leadership that was having one great success after another. And the Vatican saw Nazi Gerrmany as a protection for them against the growing power of atheistic Russia. All the major churches in Germany finally agreed to support Hitler and encouraged their members to fight for him. But Jehovah's Witnesses were different. And they suffered accordingly.

 

[جوري]

But Jehovah's Witnesses were different. And they suffered accordingly.

as others stated many groups suffered.. homosexuals for instance.. do you want to be a homosexual because they suffered such cleansing under Hitler?
If I may say so myself you're losing all credibility & control of where this is going!

all the best!

 

[Hiroshi]

Terrible argument - lets say your right about the muslims but there were muslims from India fighting for the UK against Nazi Germany as well - You also have christians supporting the Nazis and fighting against the Nazis as well (same could be said about athiests) - you also have homosexuals and Gypsies dying in concentration camps as well - they must be right as well then.

You also have communists that refused to help Hitler as well - they died as well - they must be right as well.

If this is the best you got for missionery work your in trouble.

So in spite of the persecution of homosexuals and gypsies, not to mention Jews, there were Muslims who fought for Hitler and Muslims who fought against Hitler. Likewise Catholics on the German side fought and killed Catholics on the British side and Protestants fought and killed Protestants. Only Jehovah's Witnesses were united in their stand. Jesus said that his true followers would be known by their love among themselves (John 13:35). Where was the love of these other religious groups even for their fellow members?

 

[Hiroshi]

as others stated many groups suffered.. homosexuals for instance.. do you want to be a homosexual because they suffered such cleansing under Hitler?
If I may say so myself you're losing all credibility & control of where this is going!

all the best!

My point is this. If everyone in the world was a Jehovah's Witness then all wars would cease because nobody would fight. Even Hitler couldn't get us to fight for him. Even as I write this, Jehovah's Witnesses in great numbers around the world are suffering abuse, imprisonment and sometimes torture in the lands in which they live because they refuse to serve in the armed forces.

In my congregation in London there is a young lad from South Korea. Sometime soon he will have to return to his country and when he does he knows that he will have to go to prison for not joining the army. Everyone there is required to be conscripted into the armed forces when they reach a certain age. But we follow the example of the early Christians. No one of these early Christians would become a soldier. And no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in the army.

Outside the United Nations building there is an inscription taken from Isaiah 2:4 that says "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". Jehovah's Witnesses have already succeeded in doing that although the rest of the world hasn't.

 

[جوري]

My point is this. If everyone in the world was a Jehovah's Witness then all wars would cease because nobody would fight. Even Hitler couldn't get us to fight for him. Even as I write this, Jehovah's Witnesses in great numbers around the world are suffering abuse, imprisonment and sometimes torture in the lands in which they live because they refuse to serve in the armed forces.

I believe Jw's suffer their own abuses, as I have seen many cases where they commit suicide, retract their ideology when the time comes or impose their homicidal ideologies on their children, thank God the Medical ethics committee doesn't loan itself to idiocy when it comes to emergencies in under-aged children. I mean you may think not joining an army is all good and well but imposing a no transfusion on an 8 year old who needs it is equally an act of war in my opinion!

Outside the United Nations building there is an inscription taken from Isaiah 2:4 that says "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". Jehovah's Witnesses have already succeeded in doing that although the rest of the world hasn't.

That sentence is at odds with other passages from the same book, you can see why taking one one inscription and making it your religio-motto would leave many unsatisfied

a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Ecclesiastes 3:8

yes no?

all the best

 

[Zafran]

So in spite of the persecution of homosexuals and gypsies, not to mention Jews, there were Muslims who fought for Hitler and Muslims who fought against Hitler. Likewise Catholics on the German side fought and killed Catholics on the British side and Protestants fought and killed Protestants. Only Jehovah's Witnesses were united in their stand. Jesus said that his true followers would be known by their love among themselves (John 13:35). Where was the love of these other religious groups even for their fellow members?

How many of you actually are there - I mean someone form Bahi faith, Ahmadi or sikhism or Mormons could claim the same thing -

 

[Ramadhan]

Only Jehovah's Witnesses were united in their stand. Jesus said that his true followers would be known by their love among themselves (John 13:35). Where was the love of these other religious groups even for their fellow members?

As the others have said, is this the best you can do? then your missionary work is in deep deep trouble, especially in this forum LOL.
I believe christian scientists also have the love among themselves, and they are known for their suffering from the abuse of others, and they are united in their stand.
so are you going to join christian science now?

Also, there have been many many JWs who reverted to Islam? or converted to other religions. Not so united eh? and not so steadfast in their faith eh?

Although Kingdom hall should give you plenty of browny points for your "bravery" of going to an Islamic forum to proselytize, LOL.

 

[Hiroshi]

As the others have said, is this the best you can do? then your missionary work is in deep deep trouble, especially in this forum LOL.
I believe christian scientists also have the love among themselves, and they are known for their suffering from the abuse of others, and they are united in their stand.
so are you going to join christian science now?

But would Christian Scientists kill members of their own religion in wartime if coerced by the terror that existed in Nazi Germany?

The book "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson says this on pages 488-489:

The Gestapo carried out repression when necessary. It rarely had to be severe. Except for a few individuals, the clergy were hardly ever imprisoned for long. Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, their were never more than fifty serving long terms at any one time. Of the Catholics, one bishop was expelled from his diocese, and another got a short term for currency offenses. There was no more resistance, despite the fact that, by summer 1939, all religious schools had been abolished. Only the free sects stuck to their principles enough to merit outright persecution. The bravest were the Jehovah's Witnesses, who proclaimed their outright doctrinal opposition from the beginning and suffered accordingly. They refused any cooperation with the Nazi state which they denounced as totally evil. The Nazis believed they were part of the international Jewish-Marxist conspiracy. Many were sentenced to death for refusing military service and inciting others to do likewise; or they ended up in Dachau or lunatic asylums. A third were actually killed: ninety-seven percent suffered persecution in one form or another.

 

[Ramadhan]

But would Christian Scientists kill members of their own religion in wartime if coerced by the terror that existed in Nazi Germany?

The book "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson says this on pages 488-489:

The Gestapo carried out repression when necessary. It rarely had to be severe. Except for a few individuals, the clergy were hardly ever imprisoned for long. Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, their were never more than fifty serving long terms at any one time. Of the Catholics, one bishop was expelled from his diocese, and another got a short term for currency offenses. There was no more resistance, despite the fact that, by summer 1939, all religious schools had been abolished. Only the free sects stuck to their principles enough to merit outright persecution. The bravest were the Jehovah's Witnesses, who proclaimed their outright doctrinal opposition from the beginning and suffered accordingly. They refused any cooperation with the Nazi state which they denounced as totally evil. The Nazis believed they were part of the international Jewish-Marxist conspiracy. Many were sentenced to death for refusing military service and inciting others to do likewise; or they ended up in Dachau or lunatic asylums. A third were actually killed: ninety-seven percent suffered persecution in one form or another.

As others have _REPEATEDLY_ mentioned (and that you keep ignoring):

There have been many many people or groups of people of the same faith who died for holding on to their convictions/faith throughout history of mankind.

so, according to your standard, all of those groups have the truth.

Let me give you an example: Ahmadiyah.

Currently, Ahmadiyah is among the most persecuted groups, while JW enjoys freedom everywhere in the world to proselityze (including in this forum, by stealth), so should you now be joining the ahmadiyya, because those people are willing to die for their faith?

Don't be a hypocrite, Hiroshi.

 

[Grace Seeker]

But would Christian Scientists kill members of their own religion in wartime if coerced by the terror that existed in Nazi Germany?

Hiroshi, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this line of reasoning. Already we have both of us listing our religion as "Christian" and yet also both of us admitting publically that, because of certain beliefs held by the other, we don't recognize the validity of one another's claims to that label. There are plenty of Christian pacifists, who take that position as an itegral part of their faith. Just as we have excluded one another because of a certain set of beliefs, they might exclude all those as being genuinely Christian who don't hold to a set of pacifist beliefs. The Amish and the Quakers might be a couple of cases in point.

Ultimately, the question of love is not whether someone would refuse to kill a member of their own sect, but whether they would refuse to kill anyone else. My understanding of the JW reason for not participating in the military was related more to a refusal to be under the authority of any human government than it was from being pacifists.

As for the fact that JWs will go to prison rather than to be conscripted, I respect that they are willing to be true to their convictions. But, again, they aren't alone in this. Muhammad Ali you might remember did the same thing. And such allegiance to one's beliefs is testimony only of the depth of allegiance, not of the validity of that faith.

 

[Woodrow]

My point is this. If everyone in the world was a Jehovah's Witness then all wars would cease because nobody would fight. Even Hitler couldn't get us to fight for him. Even as I write this, Jehovah's Witnesses in great numbers around the world are suffering abuse, imprisonment and sometimes torture in the lands in which they live because they refuse to serve in the armed forces.

In my congregation in London there is a young lad from South Korea. Sometime soon he will have to return to his country and when he does he knows that he will have to go to prison for not joining the army. Everyone there is required to be conscripted into the armed forces when they reach a certain age. But we follow the example of the early Christians. No one of these early Christians would become a soldier. And no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in the army.

Outside the United Nations building there is an inscription taken from Isaiah 2:4 that says "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". Jehovah's Witnesses have already succeeded in doing that although the rest of the world hasn't.

While this is an admirable quality and one I admit I have some admiration for those who refuse to engage in war at any price. The reality is being good and passive is not enough, one must always be prepared to fight evil by whatever means is necessary and at times this does require physical fighting. Will you remain passive and refuse to take up arms if your anticipated Battle of Armageddon begins today?

Just a thought. I know one of the basic tenets of the JWs is the battle of Armageddon. How do you know that this war has not been going on for the past 1000 years and JWs have refused to fight on the side of God(sw) ever since it began?

 

[Hiroshi]

As others have _REPEATEDLY_ mentioned (and that you keep ignoring):

There have been many many people or groups of people of the same faith who died for holding on to their convictions/faith throughout history of mankind.

so, according to your standard, all of those groups have the truth.

On 18 November 1978 a group of very religious people commited mass suicide in what came to be known as the Jonestown massacre. Does that prove that they had the truth? Surely not. It should be evident to all that what they did was wrong and stupid.

What I am trying to do is cite an example where we would all agree that having to die rather than compromise was the right thing to do. Hitler's reign of terror in Nazi Germany is surely universally seen as evil. But during WW2 Catholics, Protestants and Evangelical gave Hitler cowardly, fawning servility while he responded by closing their schools and confiscating their property. Anti-Christian literature was circulated among the German soldiers. But the churches rang the bells in celebration when Hitler gained victories. That was up until the time when the bells were taken away to be melted down to make more weapons.

When it really mattered the other churches acted disgracefully but Jehovah's Witnesses did not. That's all I'm saying.

Let me give you an example: Ahmadiyah.

Currently, Ahmadiyah is among the most persecuted groups, while JW enjoys freedom everywhere in the world to proselityze (including in this forum, by stealth), so should you now be joining the ahmadiyya, because those people are willing to die for their faith?

Don't be a hypocrite, Hiroshi.

As I said, it isn't enough to be willing to die. It has to be for the right reasons.

My original point was that Jesus' resurrection must have had many eye witnesses if the early Christians were willing to die for him. (Writing about 55 CE Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:6, stated that more than 500 people saw him after his resurrection). I thought that that was a reasonable thing to say but everyone is arguing against it. Well then, please yourselves what you want to believe.

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this line of reasoning. Already we have both of us listing our religion as "Christian" and yet also both of us admitting publically that, because of certain beliefs held by the other, we don't recognize the validity of one another's claims to that label. There are plenty of Christian pacifists, who take that position as an itegral part of their faith. Just as we have excluded one another because of a certain set of beliefs, they might exclude all those as being genuinely Christian who don't hold to a set of pacifist beliefs. The Amish and the Quakers might be a couple of cases in point.

Ultimately, the question of love is not whether someone would refuse to kill a member of their own sect, but whether they would refuse to kill anyone else. My understanding of the JW reason for not participating in the military was related more to a refusal to be under the authority of any human government than it was from being pacifists.

As for the fact that JWs will go to prison rather than to be conscripted, I respect that they are willing to be true to their convictions. But, again, they aren't alone in this. Muhammad Ali you might remember did the same thing. And such allegiance to one's beliefs is testimony only of the depth of allegiance, not of the validity of that faith.

The stand that JWs take is not so much that we are pacifists but that we are politically neutral. We neither actively support nor actively oppose any worldly government. We keep the laws (if these do not conflict with God's laws) and pay our taxes but we do not vote or become involved in political affairs. And neither do we join the military. According to Daniel 2:44 all man-made governments will one day be destroyed by God's kingdom.