RE: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

[Lynx]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

Peace Lynx,

Is there anything you find immoral excluding an act that harms someone?

Hello,
Yes there are plenty of things I find immoral that don't harm anyone (and that are in fact pleasurable in some cases). In the section you are quoting I was merely pointing out the difference between immoral and exploitation. Something immoral need not be exploitative.

Atheists do not find anything immoral unless it physically harms someone

You have the strangest viewpoints!
Actually, I am not an atheist. And, so you don't embarrass yourself when talking to people who know something about the world: the only thing atheists necessarily have in common is not believing in God. Now, given that, there are multitudes of philosophies and lifestyles that atheists enjoy. The dominant two non religious ethical theories are consequentalism (an act is wrong if and only if the consequences of the act are bad & this is what you are referring to) & duty based ethics (things are wrong in themselves; i.e., it is always wrong to lie no matter who gets hurt because the act of lying is simply bad).
Perhaps you should get out more and talk to more people.

 

[syed_z]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

slavery is when you are forced against your will to work or serve someone for no compensation. when a couple of a woman or a man buys a house he/she willingly trades their money for the house. They know that they won't be able to pay off the house right away but they voluntarily step into the credit cycle because the added interest + the principle is less than their expected marginal benefit (i.e., enjoying the house). There's no slavery when the market is free and people choose what to buy or not buy.

Burdening One with more than he/she is able to bear.... a condition of hard work is also defined as Slavery... Some form of work or production in which the person constitutes the Principal work force while the other just sits and does nothing, and lives off your sweat is Unjust!

That is Why Leo Tolstoy a Russian writer, said about Banking (Which is the base on which Capitalism stands)... “Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal – that there is no human relation between master and slave.”

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-money-masters/famous-quotations-on-banking/

If one person (Banker) just signs a paper and holds on to your precious things as collateral, and are able to seize it any moment if you were to loose a job or not able to make payments for the mortgaged house due to any reasons, and for that you have to work, NOT only to pay the principal amount but hefty Interest on top of it, while the person who signs just sits and does NOTHING!.... thats Exploitation! i don't know what is your definition of exploitation but that certainly is Unjust!

The addiction to accumulate wealth by the banking system, is whats leading the banking industry cross limits, in which the Profit Oriented minds that they have, they forget to think for any one , rather they think for no one but themselves.... it is the Hefty Interest amounts which they see and nothing Else!

Neither are they able to give you time, and also the law helps them not only in seizing the collateral and bringing you on the street, but also they might take you to court... that is just Unjust... and top of that your wife might have to get out of the house to work and help you pay for it... is crazy...may be it hasnt happened to you or your just fine with it, because every one has just accepted such way of life...



Well in that case lets see what Islam tells us in regards to dealing with Loans and how to deal with such people if they are NOT able to pay....and these Verses Particularly talk about Interest (Riba) and its evils...

.......Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time until it is easy for him to repay. But if you remit it (i.e., if you write off the debt) by way of charity, that will be best for you, if you only knew..... (2:278-281)

grant him time, DONT take him to court and humiliate him! and if his wife needs to leave the house while his little daughter wants to be with the mother and you not writing it off to take the burden off from the family, just because of your greed, then may be US EU courts might not take you to task, but God will one day!

They know that they won't be able to pay off the house right away but they voluntarily step into the credit cycle because the added interest + the principle is less than their expected marginal benefit (i.e., enjoying the house).

The Essence of Interest based banking System is Greed! It is to take and take and give nothing! The Usage of the House , in which you have a room and a roof, you sleep under, is not beneficial! Rather you are paying your Life for peanuts! With Maintenance that you take care yourself and if major maintenance comes up, then your stuck! The House and everything in it and with it doesn't come for free!

yes you're right capitalism is the most successful economic model ever. it skyrocketed productivity which skyrocketed living standards. capitalism is great.

The Global Warming which is taking place and is affecting our environment and is causing Ice to melt, hurricanes, cyclones and other disasters which are taking place, is also because of Massive Production due to Capitalism in Industrialization.... giving man kind more than they need and making them buy, just because they have a free amount of Credit, is leading towards more problems for environment and individuals... so if i don't have the money, rather i save and buy the thing when i have the money, i go max my credit card! This is not progress, this is Materialism... which inturn causes Jealousy, show off, greed etc...

the first part of what you say requires citations from sociological studies. the part about women being weaker and therefore should not work is a bit weird; what type of strength do women need to work? they aren't lifting weights at work...women seem to do just fine. maybe you should make more women friends?!

i don't know what you're talking about. parents who work can raise their kids just fine.

Lets see what is the Problem with Mothers going outside the House to work and leaving their Children with either Day Cares or Baby Sitters and that also IF they can afford...


President Clinton in April, 1997 made Collin Powell as Chairman of President's Summit for America's Future... their Task was to solve the Problem of 15 Million Young Americans considered at-Risk Youth!

"They are at risk of growing unskilled, unlearned or , even worse, UNLOVED! The problem has the Potential to Explode our Society."

What was the reason ? Most of them come from Dysfunctional families and fall victims to the "pathologies and poisons of the Street." Half a million attempt suicide,. A lot of them drop out of high School and will be functionally illiterate in a country with free universal education. Powell suggested to find mentors - adult mentors who would take care of their Children. But what happened to their Parents ? Have they all died ? Have they gone missing ? so whats the reason ? Mothers i.e the Homemaker went outside the house to work, men and women mixed at work place, one thing led to another, and the Home was destroyed!

The adult mentors who are going to be selected for to take care, have to leave their own Houses to take care of other Children. While looking at the whole Problem the American leader ship still did NOT admit that root of the Problem lies in making women go out of their Homes to work!


This is the problem with Modern Western Civilization, they are using their own brain, which is not well equipped, to understand what is Right and what is Wrong!

For that we need Divine Guidance, and therefore Divine Guidance is Perfect...



And so Prophet Muhammad (Saw) said... "Every one of you is in charge and every one will be accountable for those given in his charge....The man is in charge of the household and the woman is in charge of the home of her Husband and his children." (Bukhari Hadith 4801)

, i agree no woman should be forced to work and thankfully in the capitalist economies no woman is forced to work. its her choice to live in whatever conditions she wants to live.

The Economic Recession taking Place, in Capitalistic Economies are forcing Women in the Western World to get in to Immoral Way of earning their Living just because they have maxed their Credit Cards out, taken loans from the Greedy Capitalistic Banking System and are now looking for other ways of making money!


More Women going From Jobless to Topless

In this economy, “desperate measures are becoming far more acceptable,” said Jonathan Alpert, a New York City-based psychotherapist who’s had clients who worked in adult entertainment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29824663/


And NOT to forget that Capitalism , IMF and World Bank, give out loans in Millions to Middle Eastern and African Countries nowing that their Governments are corrupt and then charge Principal PLUS Interest which amount to Billions in Dollars, which becomes almost Impossible for the Countries with lower Value Currency like Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc to be able to pay back ... thus taking over their natural Resources and the Countries own people are left in Poverty .. forcing many Women to go to prostitution as well....

You need to understand the reality...

 

[Lynx]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

Burdening One with more than he/she is able to bear.... a condition of hard work is also defined as Slavery... Some form of work or production in which the person constitutes the Principal work force while the other just sits and does nothing, and lives off your sweat is Unjust!

No I've never heard slavery as defined as 'condition of hard work'. A person is a slave if he/she is forced to work for free under someone or if they are someone's property. This institution no longer exists in capitalist states and, in fact, capitalism abolished slavery in the united states because it is not conducive to the success of capitalism. This is why the american civil war occurred.

That is Why Leo Tolstoy a Russian writer, said about Banking (Which is the base on which Capitalism stands)... “Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal – that there is no human relation between master and slave.”

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-money-masters/famous-quotations-on-banking/

Tolstoy is wrong. Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple? No, because you engaged in voluntary trade. Similarly, when you work you are trading something of yours (time + effort) for money so you can buy stuff with that money. There's no ownership of anything. The boss does not own you nor does money own you. You are free to quit any time.

If one person (Banker) just signs a paper and holds on to your precious things as collateral, and are able to seize it any moment if you were to loose a job or not able to make payments for the mortgaged house due to any reasons, and for that you have to work, NOT only to pay the principal amount but hefty Interest on top of it, while the person who signs just sits and does NOTHING!.... thats Exploitation! i don't know what is your definition of exploitation but that certainly is Unjust!

Well interest is the incentive for loans to be given out. I don't understand what your problem is; if someone fails to pay back the loan they promised to pay back then why shouldn't he put through all that? Anyway, they can always file bankruptcy.

The addiction to accumulate wealth by the banking system, is whats leading the banking industry cross limits, in which the Profit Oriented minds that they have, they forget to think for any one , rather they think for no one but themselves.... it is the Hefty Interest amounts which they see and nothing Else!

You're just describing a typical greedy person.

Neither are they able to give you time, and also the law helps them not only in seizing the collateral and bringing you on the street, but also they might take you to court... that is just Unjust... and top of that your wife might have to get out of the house to work and help you pay for it... is crazy...may be it hasnt happened to you or your just fine with it, because every one has just accepted such way of life...

It's not unjust at all to pay back the loan you promised to payback. The bank is going to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Well in that case lets see what Islam tells us in regards to dealing with Loans and how to deal with such people if they are NOT able to pay....and these Verses Particularly talk about Interest (Riba) and its evils...

.......Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time until it is easy for him to repay. But if you remit it (i.e., if you write off the debt) by way of charity, that will be best for you, if you only knew..... (2:278-281)


grant him time, DONT take him to court and humiliate him! and if his wife needs to leave the house while his little daughter wants to be with the mother and you not writing it off to take the burden off from the family, just because of your greed, then may be US EU courts might not take you to task, but God will one day!

You're being over sentimental and it's clouding your judgment. I am not going to give a person a loan of 500,000$ and then if he is unable to pay a remaining 400,000$, I am not going to say 'oh well since you have a daughter I will just write this loan off and I will take losing 400,000$'. Do you know what would happen if banks did this? No one is going to pay their mortgage! Anyway, banks don't take your house the very moment you fail to pay a mortgage payment the process usually takes few months before they do something drastic like that ..or at least that's how it's been from what I've seen.

The Essence of Interest based banking System is Greed! It is to take and take and give nothing! The Usage of the House , in which you have a room and a roof, you sleep under, is not beneficial! Rather you are paying your Life for peanuts! With Maintenance that you take care yourself and if major maintenance comes up, then your stuck! The House and everything in it and with it doesn't come for free!

You missed my point. You might think it's life for peanuts but that doesn't mean other people think that.

The Global Warming which is taking place and is affecting our environment and is causing Ice to melt, hurricanes, cyclones and other disasters which are taking place, is also because of Massive Production due to Capitalism in Industrialization.... giving man kind more than they need and making them buy, just because they have a free amount of Credit, is leading towards more problems for environment and individuals... so if i don't have the money, rather i save and buy the thing when i have the money, i go max my credit card! This is not progress, this is Materialism... which inturn causes Jealousy, show off, greed etc...

Global Warming will hopefully be solved as policies are becoming more eco-friendly. The problem with Global warming and pollution and environmental damage is that it falls beyond the realm of prices so capitalism doesn't really allow it self-regulate as markets do. but nevertheless, better policies will be made to help the environment. I don't know what you're talking about in the second part of your statement. No body makes man buy more than what he needs. Man buys it himself.

Lets see what is the Problem with Mothers going outside the House to work and leaving their Children with either Day Cares or Baby Sitters and that also IF they can afford...


President Clinton in April, 1997 made Collin Powell as Chairman of President's Summit for America's Future... their Task was to solve the Problem of 15 Million Young Americans considered at-Risk Youth!

"They are at risk of growing unskilled, unlearned or , even worse, UNLOVED! The problem has the Potential to Explode our Society."

What was the reason ? Most of them come from Dysfunctional families and fall victims to the "pathologies and poisons of the Street." Half a million attempt suicide,. A lot of them drop out of high School and will be functionally illiterate in a country with free universal education. Powell suggested to find mentors - adult mentors who would take care of their Children. But what happened to their Parents ? Have they all died ? Have they gone missing ? so whats the reason ? Mothers i.e the Homemaker went outside the house to work, men and women mixed at work place, one thing led to another, and the Home was destroyed!

The adult mentors who are going to be selected for to take care, have to leave their own Houses to take care of other Children. While looking at the whole Problem the American leader ship still did NOT admit that root of the Problem lies in making women go out of their Homes to work!

Why don't you link the original research instead of drawing conclusions that the people who investigated didn't draw?

The Economic Recession taking Place, in Capitalistic Economies are forcing Women in the Western World to get in to Immoral Way of earning their Living just because they have maxed their Credit Cards out, taken loans from the Greedy Capitalistic Banking System and are now looking for other ways of making money!


More Women going From Jobless to Topless

In this economy, “desperate measures are becoming far more acceptable,” said Jonathan Alpert, a New York City-based psychotherapist who’s had clients who worked in adult entertainment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29824663/

It seems to me you have a habit of exagerating things that don't mean anything. So what if more women are doing these types of things to earn a living? They have free will and they choose to do whatever they do to make money. Women do these things and worse in all poor countries including Muslim countries and this has been the case throughout history. This can;t be blamed on the capitalist system but on men who want these things and women who supply these things.
[/quote]

And NOT to forget that Capitalism , IMF and World Bank, give out loans in Millions to Middle Eastern and African Countries nowing that their Governments are corrupt and then charge Principal PLUS Interest which amount to Billions in Dollars, which becomes almost Impossible for the Countries with lower Value Currency like Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc to be able to pay back ... thus taking over their natural Resources and the Countries own people are left in Poverty .. forcing many Women to go to prostitution as well....

You need to understand the reality...

And let's not forget the massive wealth of capitalist countries, the high quality of living experienced in the West, & the advancement of developing economies like the BRIC countries . Let's not be ungrateful! Most people on this board do live in the West and live like kings compared to other places on the planet.

 

[glo]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

1. Means you know that God exists
2. Means you think it's highly likely that God exists
3. Means you are not sure but leaning towards the belief in God
4. Means you are torn on the issue of whether God exists
5. Means you are not sure but leaning towards believing God doesn't exist
6. Means you think it's highly likely that God doesn't exist
7. Means you know that God doesn't exist

That's an interesting scale.
I agree that step 1 and 7 cannot truly be sustained, because neither claim can be proven.

Going on personal level of conviction, I would give myself a rating of 1.1

 

[syed_z]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

Tolstoy is wrong. Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple? No, because you engaged in voluntary trade. Similarly, when you work you are trading something of yours (time + effort) for money so you can buy stuff with that money. There's no ownership of anything. The boss does not own you nor does money own you. You are free to quit any time.

The reason why i gave the link was to check how many others inluding Tolstoy talk about Money and the Modern Banking System to be a New form of Slavery.... i guess every one is wrong only Lynx is right..... click on the link (which im sure you did) and see how many people have actually said and WARNED about this New form of Slavery... it staring you right in your eyes, but your trying to hide yourself... sad that people don't want to accept reality and live in their own dream world....

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/

Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple?

Basket has its own value... but paper money is assigned a value... paper money the new form of Medium of exchange can be devalued or given a higher value depending on who is allowed to issue... since the Banking Industry does, they OWN the thing you use .... what you referring to by the eg of basket and an apple, your talking about a trading system which is not in effect any more because of the Imperialistic Capitalist System! By the Central Banks allowed to issue a currency, they are able to manipulate your earnings because they are the Issuers of it! The new form of money is issuing a paper and assigning a value to it, and tell people its backed by Gold to make it have value in the eyes of people, so they use it as Medium of exchange for trading. Even though its NOT backed by Gold because Banks create Money out of Thin Air!


How does bank Create Credit ? Just for every ones information who don't know...

Banks have customer deposits which they use to give out loans, because Customers all of them do not come at one time for withdrawal. So with the existing deposit the Bank is allowed to advance loans. But whenever banks issue a loan, they open an account in their own bank and deposit that amount. So every time a bank lends an advance of loans it does not pay the loan in cash but only opens a loan account. Since the borrower does not withdraw that amount, he is allowed to use crossed cheques. Till the loan remains payable the amount of loan remains as loan recieveable in the bank account. Thus every new loan remains a new deposit. Thus it creates credit money. Economists have come to understand that such form of money making is actually Fictitious! That means banks make money and create money out of THIN AIR!

This is also called Fractional Reserve banking, in which each bank is allowed to issue 10 Dollars out of every one actual dollars that they have on deposit of any customer....now some say for every dollar they can create extra 100 Dollars.... or even more... where do you think the bank gets thousands and thousands of dollars to pay in Loans ? Does the Bank Actually own that Money ? People Naive and Ignorant like Lynx think that Banks own money, and since they do they are able to Order you! No... banks create money just because they have license to! Its the only Robbery that is Legalized in the Whole World...

Please all see these Videos, these Videos show how money is Created and how Capitalism is a New form of Imperialism...

Please do watch this Every one!

Money as Debt (1-5 parts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8&feature=fvsr

The Famous Banker Walter leaf was against such practice and warned the Banking Industry of not to create Credit out of nothing and create money out of nothing.... rather use the existing deposits of Customers only but their unlimited credit creation has led towards Modern Economic Crises as the Worst Economic Crises in the History of Mankind..... because 1st the Capitalistic Banking System was in Europe only, now it has spread towards the whole World...

You're just describing a typical greedy person.

unfortunately it very well comes close to the description of Greedy people who issue loan money on Interest.... i guess you should have read the Bible Lynx as well...

In Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 and 34 Jesus went inside the Temple and turned the tables upside down... and called un to the Jews who were dealing in Usury and called them Brood of Vipers and thieves...

It seems to me you have a habit of exagerating things that don't mean anything. So what if more women are doing these types of things to earn a living? They have free will and they choose to do whatever they do to make money. Women do these things and worse in all poor countries including Muslim countries and this has been the case throughout history. This can;t be blamed on the capitalist system but on men who want these things and women who supply these things.

it seems to me that you have completely Lost the Sense of Morality... by the way may i ask your Belief ? Since you already said you are not an Atheist, well if you would have said yes you were, then i can understand why a person would not think that such form of Work ... that is women having to show their bodies to make money, and losing their Honor in the Public, is immoral. I guess some one was right about you... you don't feel anything is immoral unless it physically hurts you! The Brother was right!

Why don't you link the original research instead of drawing conclusions that the people who investigated didn't draw?

you are so ignorant my friend... or since you do reply and type and answer, i don't think may be you are ... may be you are pretending to be... the Future of America topic was to discuss 15 Million childrens life is at risk because their Parents Rleation Ship came to END because of Mothers leaving the House to work outside in offices and other places, where they ended up in relation ship.... oh well may be anything hurting you physical is the only Problem you might see as a Problem!

And let's not forget the massive wealth of capitalist countries, the high quality of living experienced in the West, & the advancement of developing economies like the BRIC countries . Let's not be ungrateful! Most people on this board do live in the West and live like kings compared to other places on the planet.

What is banking and what is the reality of Capitalism... the links are already posted above and yes not only leo Tolstoy but all those Leaders and Famous Writers have agreed in the link of money masters.... but you want to remain ignorant...

(8:55) Verily the Vilest Creatures in the Sight of God are those who are bent on denying the Truth and therefore do not Believe.

 

[Lynx]

Re: Lewd, its not normal its disgusting

The reason why i gave the link was to check how many others inluding Tolstoy talk about Money and the Modern Banking System to be a New form of Slavery.... i guess every one is wrong only Lynx is right..... click on the link (which im sure you did) and see how many people have actually said and WARNED about this New form of Slavery... it staring you right in your eyes, but your trying to hide yourself... sad that people don't want to accept reality and live in their own dream world....

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/

you're committing a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority. just because you have a bunch of guys who say one thing it does not follow that it's true especially considering the reasons i showed earlier on why slavery has nothing to do with what we have today. quotes are just the opinions of people. curiously, that site has a quote of milton friedman who is one of the most pro capitalist thinkers.

Basket has its own value... but paper money is assigned a value... paper money the new form of Medium of exchange can be devalued or given a higher value depending on who is allowed to issue... since the Banking Industry does, they OWN the thing you use .... what you referring to by the eg of basket and an apple, your talking about a trading system which is not in effect any more because of the Imperialistic Capitalist System! By the Central Banks allowed to issue a currency, they are able to manipulate your earnings because they are the Issuers of it! The new form of money is issuing a paper and assigning a value to it, and tell people its backed by Gold to make it have value in the eyes of people, so they use it as Medium of exchange for trading. Even though its NOT backed by Gold because Banks create Money out of Thin Air!

the value of the basket is the labour put into it; it has no value in itself as a 'basket'. if you say the use-value is its value then that's not real value either since it fluctuates with demand. anyway, my point was that money has nothing to do with slavery and i am not clear on how you compare money with slavery and so far it seems that you have a definition of slavery that you made up on your own.

The Famous Banker Walter leaf was against such practice and warned the Banking Industry of not to create Credit out of nothing and create money out of nothing.... rather use the existing deposits of Customers only but their unlimited credit creation has led towards Modern Economic Crises as the Worst Economic Crises in the History of Mankind..... because 1st the Capitalistic Banking System was in Europe only, now it has spread towards the whole World...
unfortunately it very well comes close to the description of Greedy people who issue loan money on Interest.... i guess you should have read the Bible Lynx as well...

In Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 and 34 Jesus went inside the Temple and turned the tables upside down... and called un to the Jews who were dealing in Usury and called them Brood of Vipers and thieves...

making a profit is not greedy even if jesus thinks so.

it seems to me that you have completely Lost the Sense of Morality... by the way may i ask your Belief ? Since you already said you are not an Atheist, well if you would have said yes you were, then i can understand why a person would not think that such form of Work ... that is women having to show their bodies to make money, and losing their Honor in the Public, is immoral. I guess some one was right about you... you don't feel anything is immoral unless it physically hurts you! The Brother was right!

Maybe you didn't read what I said so I will repeat: whether women show off their bodies in public for money has nothing to do with 'capitalism'; women have been doing that in non-capitalist countries and before capitalism was ever conceived. prostitution is the oldest profession as they say. what i was saying in my previous post is that you're blaming capitalism for the creation of prostitutes and strippers when you should be blaming poverty and the free-will of women. please don't say capitalism is the cause of poverty..

you are so ignorant my friend... or since you do reply and type and answer, i don't think may be you are ... may be you are pretending to be... the Future of America topic was to discuss 15 Million childrens life is at risk because their Parents Rleation Ship came to END because of Mothers leaving the House to work outside in offices and other places, where they ended up in relation ship.... oh well may be anything hurting you physical is the only Problem you might see as a Problem!

sorry if im ignorant..i am not used to people telling me about studies but refusing to cite them so i can read them for myself. maybe where you've studied people just tell you stuff and you believe without questioning? i await citation to the original research you're describing

What is banking and what is the reality of Capitalism... the links are already posted above and yes not only leo Tolstoy but all those Leaders and Famous Writers have agreed in the link of money masters.... but you want to remain ignorant...

(8:55) Verily the Vilest Creatures in the Sight of God are those who are bent on denying the Truth and therefore do not Believe.

yes great leader and famous writers like Milton friedman lol. You realize that the banking system of capitalist countries is not the same thing as capitalism right? i think your beef is with the American banking system rather than capitalism as an ideology and you're confusing the two..which is leading you to say all these weird things.