Religious Faith & Beliefs

[glo]

Glo,
You are too fast. It was a typo. If you look now, it is fixed.

Phew! hew
Thank you, Wilber.
Freudian slip, perhaps?

I have destroyed all evidence ...

Peace

 

[north_malaysian]

How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

I dont believe this because they are no such thing as PURPLE ALIENS. But I'll believe him if he said GREEN ALIENS or SILVER ALIENS.

I think BARNEY is the only purple creature available.

P/S: Dont take it seriously...... I'm just in the mood of giving some bad jokes.mg:

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I think heaven and hell serve to different agendas.
Besides what I stated, there are many benefits obtained from believing in heaven.
Hell would also have many benefits. Controlling people is only one.

Yes I agree if there is a Hell it is to give gravity to the rules. If God would say: "Follow these rules, and if you don't, well heck, that 'll be sad, but nothing I can do about it.". Then people would complain: "Where"s the justice?".

But you do agree that Hell, even if it would be only for the sake of control, contradicts your earlier statement that people choice religion for comfort of mind?

 

[wilberhum]

Yes I agree if there is a Hell it is to give gravity to the rules. If God would say: "Follow these rules, and if you don't, well heck, that 'll be sad, but nothing I can do about it.". Then people would complain: "Where"s the justice?".

But you do agree that Hell, even if it would be only for the sake of control, contradicts your earlier statement that people choice religion for comfort of mind?

I find no contradiction. Religion does not have just a single aspect. I can chose to believe in a religion because it gives comfort yet not worry too much about hell because I am a "GOOD Person". Religion is not simple in it's concepts or impacts, nor is the individual attitude of people simple.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Well there's definitely not a simple straightforward cause and reaction. I can agree to that much. But my objection here would be that (especially in Islam) it's not that easy to say "I'm a good person" and no longer worry about Hell anymore. Because Islam teaches that just being a muslim in name isn't sufficient, and one has to constantly strive and struggle for it. So that's not really my idea of peace of mind.

As a former Atheist who reverted to Islam I can surely testify that peace of mind was definitely not on my agenda when I reverted. Nor did I at that time let my paradigm be chosen by what seemed most comforting.

 

[Karina]

Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".



Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.

 

[- Qatada -]

Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".

I think it falls into the whole concept of, who is doing what for a good cause etc. Then one needs to define good, and we as muslims know that revelation from God is required to figure out what is good/bad etc., especially in areas where mankind differed.

Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.

That's not totally true, not in all cases anyway. Yes, there are people who will use religion to justify their actions, however - these exact actions that the people do aren't really part of the religion, therefore we need to look into the religious texts to verify whether what the person is calling to is good or not.

I.e. In the context of war - killing of innocents isn't permitted in Islaam, nor of women, children, seniors, those who worship in monasteries etc. It is only a fight against the combatants, and the reason for that is to allow people to have their rights without transgressing others, or harming society as a whole.



I.e. In an Islamic rule:

Since the Islamic legal injunctions are aimed at achieving human welfare, they can all be referred back to universal principles which are necessary for human welfare to be secured. These universal principles are:

1. The preservation of life.
2. The preservation of religion.
3. The preservation of reason.
4. The preservation of lineage.
5. The preservation of property.

The Islamic penal system is aimed at preserving these five universal necessities. To preserve life, it prescribes the law of retribution. To preserve religion, it prescribes the punishment for apostasy. To preserve reason, it prescribes the punishment for drinking. To preserve lineage, it prescribes the punishment for fornication. To preserve wealth, it prescribes the punishment for theft. To protect all of them, it prescribed the punishment for highway robbery.


It should therefore become clear to us why the crimes for which Islam for which the Law has prescribed fixed punishments are as follows:

1. Transgression against life (murder or assault).
2. Transgression against property (theft).
3. Transgression against lineage (fornication and false accusations of adultery).
4. Transgression against reason (using intoxicants).
5. Transgression against religion (apostasy).
6. Transgression against all of these universal needs (highway robbery).

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/1557-crime-punishment-islam.html


​

Mankind has been given the 5 senses to get a basic understanding, then man has also been given logic by God, but that isn't sufficient. Because with these attributes, man still required something which will help them come together on a common ground. If they don't have common ground, then they will differ, they will dispute, argue, fight, and humanity will fall into chaos and destruction.

So divine revelation is required by the One who created us in order for us to truelly know the difference between good/bad, wrong/right etc. And if we don't have this, then the oppressors will remain oppressors, and the oppressed will remain oppressed.

 

[wilberhum]

Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".



Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.

It is our tribal nature. Want to know what tribe some one belongs to? Ask, “What are you”? They will usually list there tribal affiliation in importance sequence. If you ask me I will tell you I’m a father and husband who works with computers. Also, I’m an American in my 60’s and I’m agnostic.
By the sequence you can see that I’m much more likely to kill to protect my children and wife than I am willing to kill for god.
There is another attitude humans have. My tribe is superior to your tribe. It is much easier to kill some one who is inferior. That’s why Hitler called the Jews Vermin. During our wars, we didn’t fight the Italians or the Japanese; we fought the Whaps and the Nips. That is also why the “N” word is a no no. It is used to denote inferiority.
But still nothing is simple nor is any part the whole. There is no way to tell if some one kills for there god or if god is the excuse to kill.

As for your conclusion about religion, I agree, it was a major factor in me becoming agnostic.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be wtih you Karina;

Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.

Some years ago there was a serial killer going round killing prostitutes; he was caught and in his defence he said that God told him to kill the prostitutes.

If there is no God then this is a lie.
If there is a loving God then he would not tell a person to murder.

The truthful answer is the guy wanted to kill.

And if there really is a God at some point this man will have to stand before God and try and justify his actions. He will not be in a position to then say God told me, because God will know beyond a doubt what happened.

In the spirit o searching

Eric

 

[Karina]

That's not totally true, not in all cases anyway. Yes, there are people who will use religion to justify their actions, however - these exact actions that the people do aren't really part of the religion, therefore we need to look into the religious texts to verify whether what the person is calling to is good or not.

I'm going back to basics here but, there is one part of our shamed history that recalls the murder of up to 50,000 individuals over 300 years of "witchcraft" persecutions. Medievil Christians seemed almost preoccupied with their neighbours "spell-casting". Only the progression of science has mostly seen an end to this unfounded hatred in the Western world

Oh, this is just ONE instance of which I could probably name another few dozen, where religion has been the cause, the basis, the entire reasoning in the eyes of the majority, that is is okay to torture, murder or see the downright suffering of the non-believer.

Phew.... I got that off my chest!! Anyway - I am not saying that religious beliefs do not also generate an awful lot of love and compassion and understanding, I just wanted to highlight our bloody past as a HUMAN race, of which we should be **** well ASHAMED.

I understand the Islamic stance on peace and love and tolerance, but I also understand it's (sometimes underlying and prone to mis-translation) views on the treatment of non-believers......

Pleasecorrectmeifiamwrong......

PEACE!!!

 

[wilberhum]

If there is a loving God then he would not tell a person to murder.

Why do we always assume god is loving? Since we have no proof that he exists, we surly have no proof of his nature. Depending on how you look at a lot of things, you could come to a different conclusion.

Not what I believe, just recognizing that there is always more that 1 posibility.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Look at it this way. anything that is powerfull is bound to be abused by malevolent people. Almost every scientific development was first used in destruction. Metal was first used to make spears, the wheel was first applied in (war)chariots and it goes all the way up to general relativity being used for H-bomb. The real question here is not why is religion being abused. But why is even a deformed version so powerfull

 

[wilberhum]

But why is even a deformed version so powerfull

Maybe I'm right. I think every religion is deformed because they are all man made.
Now if anyone wants to kick me out because of what I believe, that would be an act of intollorance. Right?

 

[- Qatada -]

I understand the Islamic stance on peace and love and tolerance, but I also understand it's (sometimes underlying and prone to mis-translation) views on the treatment of non-believers......

Pleasecorrectmeifiamwrong......

PEACE!!!

Thankyou for your response.


First of all, let's see the rights of non muslims in an Islamic state (which follows the authentic teachings, just take a look:

Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State


Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.

• The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.

• Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.

• No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.

• Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.

Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion

• Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.

• Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.

• Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.

• An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.

• Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.

• The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.

• In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.

• Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.

• Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.

​

The issue of there being an Islamic State in the world today has already been discussed in different parts of the forum, and the answer is no - there isn't today as it's been prophecised.


Now, if we're to look at a religion on it's teachings, instead of some who claim to follow it, then we can say that these Islamic Teachings which i quoted above are way more advanced than even the world we live in today! Yet alone 14 centuries ago.

That was a time when one wasn't even allowed to follow another religion apart from their rulers, and if they did - they would be beheaded. Yet Allaah sent His servant and final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to free the world from the oppression it was facing.



That's what Divine revelation is supposed to do - it's supposed to free mankind from the hardships and oppression they are facing. And free the weak and the oppressed. This is Islaam, and without a doubt without Islaam, mankind is oppressed, since the rulers (i.e. of today) may say that we are 'freeing people from the oppression of religion' - when in reality, all they're doing is forcing people to accept their ideology, and anyone who speaks out - they get locked up.

So is this really freedom, or is it not? If God can send a perfect law to mankind 14 centuries ago which is more advanced than the laws of today, then i'm sure that it is even more perfect and suitable for the future also.



Sorry for dragging the post on quite abit.




Regards.

 

[Karina]

But what about mis-translation?

 

[- Qatada -]

But what about mis-translation?

I'm not sure what you mean by mistranslation, but if you mean taking things out of context - then the praise is for Allaah that He has actually preserved the religion for us; including the authentic teachings of His Messenger, and also the understanding of his companions (who had the best understanding since they were alive while the Messenger of Allaah/God was amongst them.)


The Messenger of Allaah/God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"I counsel you to have Taqwaa (God consciessness) of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian [Ethiopian] slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences.

So stick to my Sunnah [path/guidance] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."

[Authentically Recorded in Abu Dawud]


​

Therefore the praise is for Allaah/God that He actually preserved the religion for us, and even if someone was to take things out of context - we could always refer to the authentic teachings.


The Prophet said:

"There will not cease to be a group from my ummah [community - the muslims], dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes."

[Authentically Reported in Saheeh Muslim]


​

And Allaah/God Almighty says in His final revelation - the Qur'an:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

[Qur'an 15:9]


​

And Allaah knows best.




Regards.

 

[wilberhum]

:skeleton: Oh no, here we go again, being a Dalit in the Islamic cast system was so wonderful. :skeleton:

It may have been better than most “Dark Age” systems, but it is a “Dark Age” system.

 

[- Qatada -]

:skeleton: Oh no, here we go again, being a Dalit in the Islamic cast system was so wonderful. :skeleton:

It may have been better than most “Dark Age” systems, but it is a “Dark Age” system.

Then all you need to do is read Islamic History, and how it benefitted mankind so much:


Islamic History:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12



Regards.

 

[Karina]

But if the Koran in it's truest form is in Arabic - how can we be assured of it's literal translation into English?

I personally have read three very different versions of the same texts in the last 10 minutes!

Anyway.... not to be edging away from topic...................... :-[

 

[wilberhum]

You give me a totally bias source.
Reality is hard to see when you are on the outside looking in.

try this one;
A Golden Age of religious tolerance http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_3.shtml
..........................
Jews and Christians did retain some freedom under Muslim rule, providing they obeyed certain rules. Although these rules would now be considered completely unacceptable................

But you just will never see the reality of your inferiors.