Response to a stubborn disbeliever

[Pygoscelis]

Ya, um, Syilla? Could you please make your font bigger and a brighter shade of red? It is too small for me to read.

 

[Woodrow]

<---Agnostic: Religions are devised by men.

Or corrupted by men.

I see it as a coercive method of
1) Getting people into the religion you are forming.
2) Dissuading people from leaving it.

I won't deny that some people have done just that. But, just because some people have thought they were equal to or superior to God(swt) does that negate the belief in a Diety?

Religion is carrotts and sticks.
A nice juicy Carrott of eternal life with flowing waters and date palms wine women and music.
A Ruddy great stick of Burning shirts.

Somehow from a materialistic view it seems atheism would be more conducive for immediate gratification. Religion is quite demanding and for a true belief in God(swt) it requires much personal sacrifice and much denial of material pleasures. Could only work if a person has reason to truly believe in God(swt)

As for the manufactuor. What product is he selling? Why should I buy his stuff? Do I need it?

Reading the instruction manual and the warranty, it seems that it is not a product being sold but a service and a training course. Like all training courses it does require effort and even some on hands experimentation. If we complete the course with a passing grade we graduate to a professional level and are rewarded with security and unbelievable company benefits with many free perks.

Why did he make it so dangerous...hasnt he heard of the health n safety act?

Quite true, it is very hazardous. however, if the instructions are followed life can be handled in a safe manner and live up to the full promises of the Manufacturer. The Manufacturer was the original writer of the health and safety act. All needed safety devices are available if requested.However, since each situation is different it is necessary that we ask for the safety features as we need them. There is immediate service available if we call upon customer support.

 

[barney]

we all agreed to this, .

I must have been pulling a sickkie that day. I always keep my receipts even for takeaways. cant find that documentation anywhere.
Can you link me a pic of your agreement so i know what the form looks like?

I just tried yelling out of the window at the nearest mountain, it said it cant remember either. actually it diddnt say anything....but it's silence I take as being supportive of my arguement since it diddnt disagree.

 

[Malaikah]

This occurred before the human race was established on earth. Allah pulled all the souls of all the humans to come out of the back of Prophet Adam (AS) and proposed the challenge to us and we accepted.

Obviously we don't remember this.

 

[Woodrow]

I must have been pulling a sickkie that day. I always keep my receipts even for takeaways. cant find that documentation anywhere.
Can you link me a pic of your agreement so i know what the form looks like?

I just tried yelling out of the window at the nearest mountain, it said it cant remember either. actually it diddnt say anything....but it's silence I take as being supportive of my arguement since it diddnt disagree.

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

 

[barney]

Or corrupted by men.



I won't deny that some people have done just that. But, just because some people have thought they were equal to or superior to God(swt) does that negate the belief in a Diety?



Somehow from a materialistic view it seems atheism would be more conducive for immediate gratification. Religion is quite demanding and for a true belief in God(swt) it requires much personal sacrifice and much denial of material pleasures. Could only work if a person has reason to truly believe in God(swt)



Reading the instruction manual and the warranty, it seems that it is not a product being sold but a service and a training course. Like all training courses it does require effort and even some on hands experimentation. If we complete the course with a passing grade we graduate to a professional level and are rewarded with security and unbelievable company benefits with many free perks.



Quite true, it is very hazardous. however, if the instructions are followed life can be handled in a safe manner and live up to the full promises of the Manufacturer. The Manufacturer was the original writer of the health and safety act. All needed safety devices are available if requested.However, since each situation is different it is necessary that we ask for the safety features as we need them. There is immediate service available if we call upon customer support.

I beleive in a creator/(s). Just that it's not Allah or Jehova or Jesus or Horus.
It's my beleif that true religion comes with a personal connection with this creator, if thats possible. Personally i doubt it is. If the creator is still around then theres no interaction that I can see.

I like the analogy of a training course. Fits well into a religious system. Nice one.

As a agnostic, I veiw it more like a Patio salesman coming round telling me that He can do a really great deal on re-turfing lawns and a nice shrubbery. I can go along with his deal or he will kick my face in forever. i'd probably go along with the deal.....


..........But I live on the 14th floor of a block of flats.

 

[barney]

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

But I've been sent this rotating ashtray and i dont smoke.
He's installed apparently 24 hour CCTV footage everywhere i go to check i'm using it....and If I dont. he'll pound my face to a pulp.

 

[Woodrow]

I beleive in a creator/(s). Just that it's not Allah or Jehova or Jesus or Horus.
It's my beleif that true religion comes with a personal connection with this creator, if thats possible. Personally i doubt it is. If the creator is still around then theres no interaction that I can see.

I like the analogy of a training course. Fits well into a religious system. Nice one.

As a agnostic, I veiw it more like a Patio salesman coming round telling me that He can do a really great deal on re-turfing lawns and a nice shrubbery. I can go along with his deal or he will kick my face in forever. i'd probably go along with the deal.....


..........But I live on the 14th floor of a block of flats.

I really can understand your views i spent a good bit of my life as an agnostic too and at one time I would say my views were very similar to yours. i did try various religious systems and for a long time called myself a Buddhist. That was after being a Christian for about 25 years.

I can not say I came to Islam, rather Islam came to me. I can only call it a flash of insight one day when I was reading the Qur'an from a scholastic view and as a linguistic study as i was trying to refresh my Arabic that I had not used for nearly 40 years.

I can not say or do anything that would convince you that Islam is the truth. That is a personal choice a person can only make on their own and should only be done if a person sincerely believes it is the only path to take.

May your journey in life be beneficial and may you find the joy and fulfillment many of us have found. Never, stop seeking and always question all that you are told. When all else fails, stop and ask Allah(swt) for guidance and be receptive for His reply.

 

[islamirama]

He is reminding you that you are human being and you took up this challenge and it was not forced upon you. The mountains and other creations strong than humans where also offered this challenge but none accepted it.

What challenge? The challenge that they will be given life and freedom of choice to choose whether they will worship Allah or not. If they do, they will be rewarded with Paradise,a dn if they don't, they will be punished with hell fire.

Allah sent thousands of Messengers to remind us of the reason we were created and that the purpose of this life is to worship Allah and that there is life after this life, in the hereafter, in either paradise or hell fire.

The bottom line is that we all agreed to this, and Allah is only reminding us, out of his mercy, of our promise. Now it is up to us to accept or turn away.

 

[Balthasar21]

Speaking for myself, I would say the Christians were influenced by the very same Prophets that came before Muhammad(PBUH) If they had truly followed what was given to them their beliefs would be the same as ours. The message Allah(swt) gave to Muhammad(PBUH) was the same message given to all of the Prophets(PBUT) including Isa(as). The only difference is when the message was given in the past it was given for specific people at specific times. When it was given to Muhammad(PBUH) it is to given to all people of all times.

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

 

[Woodrow]

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

 

[barney]

May your journey in life be beneficial and may you find the joy and fulfillment many of us have found. Never, stop seeking and always question all that you are told. When all else fails, stop and ask Allah(swt) for guidance and be receptive for His reply.

Cheers and the same to your good self!

 

[glo]

A "fall guy" is a term usually used in an organized crime setting, meaning one person being made to or volunteering to take the punishment for another. For example when evidence surfaces that the mafia don killed somebody, one of his men may step forward and confess that HE did the murder (and take the sentence for it) while the don walks away free.

Thanks for the explanation.

My point is that it is immoral for one person to be punished for the wrongdoing of another, even if he volunteers for it. And this is exactly the point of what Jesus is doing when he "died for the sins" of chrisitians.

Yes, you are right. That was an outrageous thing to do. Sacrificing yourself - although entirely innocent - for the sake of others, who jolly well deserve their punishment, is shockingly outrageous, and completely flies in the face of our human justice system.

It is, what Christians call God's Grace. :statisfie

To clarify from an earlier post, though (and not wanting to take this thread off-topic), whilst Jesus' sacrifice restored the relationship between humans and God it is not excuse for people to continue sinning.
It is not a get-out-of-jail-card, which lets you off the hook for every wrong you commit.
There is clear evidence in Jesus' teachings that we will be judged by our actions and deeds at the end of the day.

Sin has consequences.

Peace

 

[Skavau]

He is reminding you that you are human being and you took up this challenge and it was not forced upon you. The mountains and other creations strong than humans where also offered this challenge but none accepted it.

Where did I accept this challenge?

What challenge? The challenge that they will be given life and freedom of choice to choose whether they will worship Allah or not. If they do, they will be rewarded with Paradise,a dn if they don't, they will be punished with hell fire.

That's not a challenge. That's almost a threat.

The bottom line is that we all agreed to this, and Allah is only reminding us, out of his mercy, of our promise. Now it is up to us to accept or turn away.

Where did we all agree to this? I certainly didn't.

Have you given any thought as to why there would be so many? When you buy any devices have you ever read the warnings listed on them, such as wear safety goggles, keep fingers away from moving parts, wear ear protection, do not expose to heat or flame etc. Do the manufactures put those warnings because they want to punish us if we are not obedient or is it because they do not want us to be harmed? Does it not make sense that the manufacturer of the earth would give us operating instructions so that we can make our time using it productive and safe?

This is a faulty analogy.

Manufacturers who put health and safety warnings on manuals do it out of necessity. You are compromising your safety at your own risk and there is no way of there not needing to have health and safety warnings used.

With God though, he established everything (if God exists). He would have created heaven and/or hell. He established the conditions of which the 'warnings' are necessary. He established the world knowing full well what would happen to those who do not believe in him. You're then comparing this to a health and safety manual?

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage. I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

 

[vpb]

The answer from the sheikh is aswesome and very tough lol very good answer. some people like that questioner deserve those type of answers.

may Allah swt reward the sheikh.

 

[Balthasar21]

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

Are you giveing a Two Fold ansewer here Yes and No ?

 

[Woodrow]

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

Are you giveing a Two Fold ansewer here Yes and No ?

What part of no do you need explained?

No, Muhammad(PBUH) was not influenced by early Christians. The two of them will be similar because Christianity also was based upon the words of Allah(SWT)

 

[barney]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage.

So somebody who in all likelyhood who diddnt exist, and if he did wasnt the first human, and who lived apparently 4000 years ago, several hundreds of thousands of years after cavemen, did something wrong apparently, in somebodys eyes...all his decendents right to his great great grandkids X 10 to the power of 40 now have to accept his "challange" too.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

[Balthasar21]

What part of no do you need explained?

No, Muhammad(PBUH) was not influenced by early Christians. The two of them will be similar because Christianity also was based upon the words of Allah(SWT)

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .