Response to a stubborn disbeliever

[barney]

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.
They beleive he didnt just spring into existance in 630AD.

 

[Trumble]

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

I think the answer to that (and ditto, Jews) depends very much on whether you are a muslim or not!

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.

As they both believe there is only one God surely they must, logically, believe in the same one?

 

[Joe98]

This occurred before the human race was established on earth....

Obviously we don't remember this.

You think like an athiest.

-

 

[barney]

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Jews beleive their message is right, because they got it first. It tells them that they are special and the best.

Christians beleive that The Jewish god came down to earth and switched from a wrathful, burning God into a Peaceful all loving god, told everyone to love him and everyone else, then went back up....about the same time as his death....which saved mankind from his own wrath. It gets confusing.

that wraps it up.

 

[MustafaMc]

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

 

[barney]

Unless Abraham, the first recorded guy to claim to speak with him, was mistaken. (or whatever)

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yes, you are right. That was an outrageous thing to do. Sacrificing yourself - although entirely innocent - for the sake of others, who jolly well deserve their punishment, is shockingly outrageous, and completely flies in the face of our human justice system.

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong. And I would think that Christians can see this in any other setting - hence why we didn't allow it even in the Christian theocracies or the dark age quasi-theocracies.

To clarify from an earlier post, though (and not wanting to take this thread off-topic), whilst Jesus' sacrifice restored the relationship between humans and God it is not excuse for people to continue sinning.
It is not a get-out-of-jail-card, which lets you off the hook for every wrong you commit.
There is clear evidence in Jesus' teachings that we will be judged by our actions and deeds at the end of the day.

Sin has consequences.

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

 

[barney]

I think the stock answer is Jesus knows in our hearts if we accept his teachings and try to live by them. So only if we reject his message of love will we be ripped eternally to small bitesized chunks.

 

[Balthasar21]

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

If you have a Beginning , Then you have a Beginning ,
If you have a Ending , Then you have a Ending .

 

[glo]

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

Through Jesus you can!

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

And later on, when the rich man walks away because is unwilling to comply with all Jesus demands:

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

The base line of Christian beliefs is that none of us are good enough to ever gain God's favour. Not the Pope, not Mother Teresa, not you or I ...
There is only One [namely God himself] who is good!

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.
That's not to say that there won't be punishments or consequences. (I would have to delve a little deeper into scripture for that one. Certainly I will agree that Islamic teaching is a whole lot clearer and specific - sometimes extremely graphic - in terms of what sin demands what punishment, than the Bible is.)

Being pardoned for a wrong you have committed, when you are repentant and genuinely remorseful, is not such a rare thing in human history either - that concept is quite within the realm of human understanding ... and it still isn't fair in terms of justice.

Peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

 

[Umar001]

Howdy Barney,

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,

Ohhhhhhhhhh someone has let the cat out of the bag
Question ; Who was Waraqa Ibn Naufal ?

Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise. :statisfie

 

[Pygoscelis]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[Umar001]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Richard for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer. mg:

 

[Pygoscelis]

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer. mg:

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

 

[duskiness]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

Have you read "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel? He is also from Canada... (well, I know it doesn't mean that you read all books by Canadians... ) First of all, I think it is a good book (and funny) about belief and disbelief. At one point main hero - Pi (his father is a boss of zoo) sums up Christianity:

When I was fourteen years old -- and a well-contented Hindu -- when I met Jesus Christ on a holiday.

[Father Martin] served me tea and biscuits in a tea set that tinkled and rattled with every touch; he treated me like a grown-up; and he told me a story. Or rather, since Christians or so fond of capital letters, a Story.

And what a story. The first thing that drew me in was disbelief. What? Humanity sins but it's God's Son who pays the price? I tried to imagine father saying to me, "Piscine, a lion slipped into the llama pen today and killed two llamas. Yesterday another one killed a black buck. Last week two of them ate the camel. The week before it was painted storks and grey herons. And who's to say for sure who snacked on our golden agouti? The situation has become intolerable. Something must be done. I have decided that the only way the lions can atone for their sins is if I feed you to them."

"Yes, father, that would be the right and logical thing to do. Give me a moment to wash up."

"Halleluhah, my son."

"Hallelujay, father."

What a downright weird story. What peculiar psychology.

sounds almost like you!
But, further in the book Pi became Christians. There is another great part when he speaks why he does it, but I can't find it..and this part would be an answer to your post.

 

[Malaikah]

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

 

[duskiness]

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

exactly Pi became also Muslim.

[The baker] was explaining to me how the bread baked on these heated pebbles when the nasal call of the muezzin wafted through the air from the mosque. I knew it was a call to prayer, but I didn't know what it entailed. I imagined it beckoned the Muslim faithful to the mosque, much like bells summoned us Christians to church. Not so. The baker interrupted himself mid-sentence and said, "Excuse me." He ducked into the next room for a minute and returned with a rolled-up carpet, which he unfurled on the floor of his bakery, throwing up a small storm of flour. And right there before me, in the midst of his workplace, he prayed. It was incongruous, but it was I who felt out of place. Luckily, he prayed with his eyes closed.

He stood straight. He muttered in Arabic. He brought his hands next to his ears, thumbs touching the lobes, looking as if he were straining to hear Allah replying. He bent forward. He stood straight again. He fell to his knees and brought his hands and forehead to the floor. He sat up. He fell forward again. He stood. He started the whole thing again.

Why, Islam is nothing but an easy sort of exercise, I thought. Hot-weather yoga for the Bedouins. Asanas without sweat, heaven without strain.

"What's your religion about?" I asked.

His eyes lit up. "It is about the Beloved," he replied.

I challenge anyone to understand Islam, its spirit, and not to love it. It is a beautiful religion of brotherhood and devotion.

The presence of God is the finest of rewards.

hope you like it

 

[Balthasar21]

Howdy Barney,



Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,



Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise. :statisfie

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ?

 

[glo]

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

I know what you are saying, Pygoscelis. I am married to an atheist, and that's very much how he feels too ...
And yet, that's what I believe to be true, and it is the best way I can explain it ...

All I am left with is this Bible quote:

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
(1 Corinthians 1: 21-25)

To paraphrase a wise saying: To you your atheism, to me my religion.

Peace, friend.