Response to a stubborn disbeliever

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From my perspective as a Muslim, I would rather be a Christian on the Day of Judgement than to be an atheist or an agnostic. At least some Christians are sincere and have a worshipful attitude toward their Creator.

Fair enough, but I'd like to point out that atheists too are sincere (just not worshipful).

Woodrow said:
True it may not be worship in the terms of any standardized ritual, but it is still worship some things that I find people worship to at least some extent:

Freedom

Intelligence

Wealth

Self Worth


I just happen to believe that Allah(swt) has more substance and more validation to be worshiped.

I'm not sure if worship is the right term for it, but I certain value many of those things (wealth being the least, self worth being the most). I certainly place self worth above any God, real or imaginary. I would have difficulty putting a God even if one existed above my own self worth. I can admit that, and I find it a virtue, not a fault. There are some things I may put above my own self worth, ie I may sacrifice my life to save others, but God isnt one of them (even if such a being existed).

Phil12123 said:
The Bible may not talk about a group of people who worship no god, as opposed to the True God, and the emphasis is indeed on worship of the True God vs. worship of idols or false gods. But the Bible does say that you're a fool if you say there is no God (Ps. 14:1), so that would be a "problem," wouldn't it? Also, it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. So, if you deny the Lord exists, you can't even begin to have true knowledge, which would be a problem, too.

So it calls atheists stupid. That's a bit uncouth, but it isn't quite the same as destroying their homes and killing them outright as God is reported to have done to those who worshiped false Gods. So God finds us atheists dumb, but finds those worshiping false gods horrible and in need of destruction. I think atheists are better off if this monster god exists.
 
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"But the Bible does say that you're a fool if you say there is no God "

mr-t-pities-the-fool.jpg


Never a bad time for Mr T !
 
Salaam / peace ;




I read Bible long ago.....i remember this kind of command ....Worship me ....so , if anybody denies God .....surely s/he is disobeying God. And what's the punishment of disobeying God ?


I just browsed & here is Bible punishment quiz . U may search for the ans here .

Bible Punishment Quiz

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0601/biblepunishment.html


got to love landoverbaptist, a pretty funny spoof/satire site. It is almost Poe worthy.
 
The Westbro Baptist church! Where religion meets inbreeding evry day of the week!

I got to tell ya barney, this guy (Rev. Phelps) gives me the willies. I don't think I have ever seen someone spit so much venom, he was born one inquisition too late. He came to Colorado Springs and ours was one of the churches he protested, I count that as being in good company. It pains me to think that people look at him and think all Christians are like that.
The thing is that even for him I need to strive to forgive, this is not the easiest walk I've ever been on.
 
Nahh mate, noone thinks all christians are like that.

I find it interesting what theyre doing , because its like christian Whabbism, It's like a American Sein Fein.

Theres 72 of them, theyre all inbred to blazes and theyre clearly mentally Ill.

I look at Westboro and I look at Hamas, I see the same thing. They are the same thing.
Fortunatly, they dont run a country.

Relax about being a christian already, Christians are loopy but sweet. :)

(in My Opinion)
 
What is ******sm? and no before you do the google search and wow me with a cut and paste, I really must ask, what you know a "******" to be?
 
I expected as much-- actually even less.. I'll post this by Dr. Idris... for those members who don't wish to give into slow vegetation from deficient posts and the vomit of their tele...
the asterisked letters denote W a h a b b i

Response to The Washington Post

This is a letter that Dr. Idris sent to The Washington Post in response to the Article "Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism," where Dr. Idris' name was mentioned.. The letter was delivered to the Post by hand and via e-mail. The Washington Post did not publish his response.

Susan Schmidt’s report, (Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism), Thursday, October 4, 2003, is an example of writings about Islam that Muslims find very disturbing. They wonder what good does it serve the national interest of the United States to distort the facts about Muslim individuals, organizations, beliefs and positions, to see organizational links where none in fact exist, and to present all their honest activities as a threat to America?

The writer calls me an Imam, which I am not; I am a professor of philosophy. She groups me with what she calls salafi and ****** groups (her definition of which is ridiculous) while I consider myself to be an independent scholar who is not a member of any group or party or a blind follower of any leader; my only ultimate leader is Prophet Muhammad. I am certainly not a ******, and do not know of any scholar even in Saudi Arabia who calls himself a ******. There is no sect in Islam called ******sm. I did read some of Ibn Abdel Wahab’s works and I did write about him, but I never invited people to follow him, or any particular scholar or leader. I have great respect for him as one of our outstanding scholars, and the leader of a major revivalist movement. But still we do not accept every thing he says.

One might wonder why have the teachings of this man suddenly, and after more than two hundred years, become a threat to America? The answer is that what is now perceived by some to be a danger is not what is called ******sm. The epithet ‘******’ is now being exploited by many in America to describe any Muslim who takes his religion seriously. If you are a serious adherent to Islam, you are ******; if you are ****** you must be a terrorist; and if you are a terrorist you are a legitimate target. The message to practicing Muslims seems to be that if you are not like us you will not be tolerated by us. This is in essence is what the Senator, whom the reporter quotes, is saying. ******sm is a danger, we are told because it is “antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things.” Must everyone in the world conceive these things the way the Senator and his likes conceive them? If so then the problem is not confined to what is called ******sm. It is bound to include other Muslims, as well as all people who belong to other cultures; it is in fact bound to include many in the West since there is no consensus among them on the way these things are to be conceived. If your tolerance applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. It is because of this that Jews and Christians found their safest haven in the Muslim world long before the West started to talk about human rights and freedom of religion. “Jews familiar with history might note that from Spain to Baghdad, it was the Islamic world that offered the Jews of the Middle Ages a fair degree of toleration -- not the Christian West’, so tells us Richard Cohen in an article in the Post.; non-Muslims continue to live peacefully among Muslims. Islamic teachings, corroborated by our historical experience, teach us that the best atmosphere for the spread of Islam is the peaceful atmosphere. It is because of this that people like myself have been staunch advocates of peaceful coexistence and peaceful ways of inviting others to Islam long before September/11. And that is why we have been condemning acts of violence as ways of furthering the cause of Islam; we believe that they do just the opposite. But this has been of no avail to us; if you are an advocate of Islam, even by merely distributing copies of the Qur’an, you are bound to be viewed with suspicion. The same does not apply to organizations that put a copy of the Bible in every room of almost any hotel, not only in America, but in many other parts of the world.

We are determined however to stay this course. We know that being firm in our adherence to Islam has been one of the main reasons for its fast spreading.

Why is Islam expanding so spectacularly? … … … To any Christian familiar with the Bible, the answer is obvious: because God keeps His promises and blesses those who obey His Laws and fear Him, and punishes those who do not. … … Compare the amounts of abortion adultery, fornication and sodomy among Muslims and among Christians. Then compare the amounts of prayer. [Ecumenical Jihad, 1994, p.38]

These are the words of a Catholic professor of philosophy, Peter Kreeft. Could he perhaps be a Catholic ******?

Dr. Jaafar Idris

Washington Post article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Spreading+Saudi+Fundamentalism

لعربي: ـ المقالات مقالات جريدة الميثاق . معالم لنهضتنا . الكتب والبحوث . الندوات والمحاضرات العامة . اللقاءات الصحفية . تعريف بالشيخ
 
:sl:

allow me to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.
 
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:sl:

allow to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.

Do you mean to tell me you know more than Barnacle? Barnacle can debate the best of them with sheer brilliance, He has the Quran in his home and reads the examiner and the sun daily where do you get off contradicting him? :confused:
 
:sl:

allow me to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.
 
hi Pygoscelis. allow me to answer your question. as far as i know this is what ******sm is.
it is named after a shaikh (a muslim religious scholar) called Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab who lived quite a while ago (im talking centuries here). I don't know how much you know about islam, but us muslims believe that there is no God, except allah. that means, that when we seek refuge, we seek refgue with Allah. when we ask for something (such as rain, etc) we ask allah.
At his (the shyaikhs time) people began to revert to their old polytheistic ways, (something in which prophet muhmmaed -peace be upon him was sent to correct at the time he was sent, approx 1400 yrs ago) such as asking other than allah, etc and began to innovate things in the religion, which has no basis. as a result, basically the shiaykh began to re educate people (as in muslims) about their beflefs. and as far as i know this is where the name come from. hope that answers your question.

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.
 
You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
oops do the first part and where the *'s are, type w a h a b i
 
Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written , Because you nor him would be able to explain how your Hadith's writer could write such things . I notice you and him left out what the Hadith's were saying Why is that .

If you actually searched you'd find most of the hadith have been already discused on the forum. Such as the one brought up by barney I think it was in another thread, it was answered straight away.

Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written

Your saying you never assum anything, but then you make a statement as to why he deleted it. He said clearly why he deleted it. Maybe you should read more.


Remember your the one who said when could discuss The Validity Of hadith Yes . Now you and the other mod trying to flip the script . Now that you and the other mod have read what type of things your so-called Hadith's writer , are saying You see why I say I don't accept any Hadith's unless they're back up by the qur'aan . Because NO WAY WOULD ALLAH WOULD HAVE ANY MUSLIMS ACCEPTING ANY HADITH'S LIKE THE ONE YOU AND THE OTHER MOD READ. Remember when you point your finger at someone the other one always point back at you .

Me and you shall still discuss it, don't you worry, you've put your post and I will reply and then you can reply and then we'll go like that until we come to an agreement. You'll have a whole thraed to teach me! :) But you have to keep your typing clean, no 'pissy' and such words. If you want to discuss it we will do it nicely.
 
You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think they might us the word to refer to 'salafis' who are nothing more than sunni (main stream) Muslims, they might differ on a few minor points, but they are not any more 'extreme' or 'radical' or 'fundamental' than any other sunni Muslims.

It never was a sect either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
oops do the first part and where the *'s are, type w a h a b i

This is not accurate... at all.

Such as the following, this is not a '******' thing, these points are all a part of 'main stream' Islam!

There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as:

* Listening to certain types of music
* Drawings of human beings or other living things which contain a soul
* Praying while visiting tombs (praying to Prophet Mohammed's tomb is also considered polytheism)
* Blindly following any madhhabs (schools of thought) of Islamic jurisprudence in their legal expertise, "except for one who is under necessity and can not reach the Sunnah.[7]
* Using non-literal explanations of God's attributes exclusively in preference to literal explanations.
* Celebrating the "mawalid" (birthday of Prophet Muhammad)
* Innovations (bid'ah) in matters of religion (e.g. new supplementary methods of worship or laws not sanctioned by God or his prophet.)

The scholars mentioned are not '******' scholars, they are sunni scholars, and their theology was no different to that of main stream Muslim shcolars.

Very inaccurate.
 
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Just to clear up the deleted thing. Ive been PM'd by a mod to say that my post on Wabbitism was deleted as it was a response to another post which was deleted for using insulting language. :)

I'm getting the feeling that it's widely beleived amongst muslims that wabbitism is a myth or something that died out centuries ago.

No christian will deny Fundamentalist christianity.
No Jew will deny the existance of the Black Hats.

A more constructive arguement can be formed around to what extent does wabbitism have support in modern islam.
 
Hi Barney
The thing is, a lot of persons who claim to be salafi are often labeled as ******s. Although I would love to answer you further I will not explain that any more in detail, as that will just sparkle a discussion about sects which is not allowed here. So Instead I will just message you. Anybody else who wants to know more, can ask me to trough pm.
 

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