Richard Dawkins: Answer My Questions Please.

Why did Richard Dawkins fail to answer the questions?


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There is a saying by Jewish and Christian scholars: "to go from text to application without interpretation is itself heresy". It can be hard to decide what is literal and what is not but Ibn Rushd defined a way of doing it: "if the literal words don't make sense then the author must have meant something else".

Is that your standard (I am bolding the part)?
So I'll take it that because the term "son of god" in the literal sense is impossible as well as illogical (in the monotheism religion as practiced by Abraham, Musa, and David), then Jesus as "the son of god" means that he is slave of god and servant of god instead of the actual son of god (just like the previous prophets had also been referred to as).
I got ya!

Consider Q9:5 about slaying idolaters wherever you find them (chronologically the last passage spoken by Muhammad)

Do you even know how this verse is related to the verses before and after and how and why the verses were revealed (ie. the situation where/when the verses directed to?).

Here's some explanation of the verse:

Allah mentions the wisdom in dissolving all obligations to the idolators and giving them a four month period of safety, after which they will meet the sharp sword wherever they are found,

[كَيْفَ يَكُونُ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ عَهْدٌ]

(How can there be a covenant for the Mushrikin), a safe resort and refuge, while they persist in Shirk with Allah, and disbelief in Him and His Messenger,

[إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ عَـهَدْتُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ]

(except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid Al-Haram), on the day of Hudaybiyyah. Allah said in another Ayah [concerning the day of Hudaybiyyah],

[هُمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَصَدُّوكُمْ عَنِ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْهَدْىَ مَعْكُوفاً أَن يَبْلُغَ مَحِلَّهُ]

(They are the ones who disbelieved and hindered you from Al-Masjid Al-Haram and detained the sacrificial animals, from reaching their place of sacrifice.) [48:25] Allah said next,

[فَمَا اسْتَقَـمُواْ لَكُمْ فَاسْتَقِيمُواْ لَهُمْ]

(So long as they are true to you, stand you true to them.), if they keep the terms of the treaties you conducted with them, including peace between you and them for ten years,

[فَاسْتَقِيمُواْ لَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُتَّقِينَ]

(then stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves those who have Taqwa.) The Messenger of Allah and the Muslims preserved the terms of the treaty with the people of Makkah from the month of Dhul-Qa`dah in the sixth year [of Hijrah], until the Quraysh broke it and helped their allies, Banu Bakr, against Khuza`ah, the allies of Allah's Messenger . Aided by the Quraysh, Banu Bakr killed some of Bani Khuza`ah in the Sacred Area! The Messenger of Allah led an invasion army in the month of Ramadan, of the eighth year, and Allah opened the Sacred Area for him to rule over them, all thanks are due to Allah. The Messenger of Allah freed the Quraysh who embraced Islam after they were overpowered and defeated. These numbered around two thousands, and they were refered to by the name `Tulaqa' afterwards. Those among them who remained in disbelief and ran away from Allah's Messenger were sent promises of safe refuge for four months, during which they were allowed to move about freely. They included Safwan bin Umayyah, `Ikrimah bin Abi Jahl and many others. Allah later on guided them to Islam, and they became excellent believers. Surely, Allah is worthy of all praise for all His actions and decrees.

[كَيْفَ وَإِن يَظْهَرُوا عَلَيْكُمْ لاَ يَرْقُبُواْ فِيكُمْ إِلاًّ وَلاَ ذِمَّةً يُرْضُونَكُم بِأَفْوَهِهِمْ وَتَأْبَى قُلُوبُهُمْ وَأَكْثَرُهُمْ فَـسِقُونَ ]

(8. How When if you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship, (Ill) or of covenant (Dhimmah) With their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are rebellious.)

Q5:60 that Allah transformed Jews into pigs and monkeys - how do you interpret these verses

Yes, we do take this verse as literal.
What is your problem here? Are you doubting God not able to transform jews (who became extremely obedient, read other verses related to it and you would understand how extremely obedient were the jews) into pigs and monkeys?
This does not make sense to you?

I know how your scripture is filled with unbelievable things such a prophet who wrestled with god and won, a prophet who drank and then had sex with his own daughters, etc etc
so that you eschew almost everything in your own scripture that does not fit your taste.

Of course I know that events such as the inquisition and the crusades happened and I regard them both as an absolute disgrace. Now let me ask you; is there ANY event in Islamic history you are ashamed of: Massacre of Jews in Medina, millions died in Bangladesh, Darfur, 9/11 and hundreds of other events?

I am not ashamed of the massacres of jews in madina, why should I?
t seems you think you know more than all muslims in the world, so please tell us more about what actually happened, why it happened, basically the complete details regarding the events.
what is the name of the jews tribe? why did they get killed?

millions died in bangladesh? from flooding?
darfur? Please enlighten me of what truly happenend in Darfur sans western media propaganda? Maybe you can also fill us in on "the LORD's Resistance Army"?
9/11? a two planes that took down cleanly THREE towers? Independent investigation please.
Hundreds other events? is that the best you can do?

What about this teaching from christ:
Thou shall not kill??
Judge not les ye be judged??
Give your other cheek?
Love your enemy??
Apparently this is completely lost on the churches throughout history to current dates.

Apparently it was totally lost on leaders of main congregation in america who were the main cheerleaders for Bush' invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq that killed a million muslims in the name of "fighting evil"

How about the 800,000-1,000,000 killed in Rwanda where the main perpretators were churches leaders including priests, pastors and nuns? What about a million killed in congo?

How about the slaughtering of muslims in bosnia and kosovo where the christian europe sitting idle?

All these are current massacres, not past history like the unspeakable crimes of the crusades and teh inquisitions.

Why do churches leaders keep repeating history and committing heinous crimes?
Is it because they believe that jesus has died for their sins so they have a free pass to heaven and so they can do anything they like?


Only a blind mind can read the four Gospels and conclude that Jesus was violent or advocated violence or that this passage means we can also be violent

Chill out dude.
No one said jesus pbuh was violent or advocating viol
i said that according to your scripture he is not shy to kill thousands of pigs to save a human live, and will kill the antichrist and its followers.

By the way,
Is there a "Gospel according to Jesus?"

I'd love to read that.
 
Is that your standard (I am bolding the part)?
So I'll take it that because the term "son of god" in the literal sense is impossible as well as illogical (in the monotheism religion as practiced by Abraham, Musa, and David), then Jesus as "the son of god" means that he is slave of god and servant of god instead of the actual son of god (just like the previous prophets had also been referred to as).
No. That he can't be a son in the literal sense, means that the term is conveying something other than sonship in the way that humans have sons. But that the term sonship still speaks to what is present. The answer does not come from changing terms. The answer come by looking deeper at what one means by sonship. (Though Christians have no problem with speaking of Jesus not just as the Son of God, but also as the servant of God.)

Since the question you posed is about sonship, let's look at sonship. To say that one is the son of another implies a relationship. Typically it implies a biological relationship. However, we all know of circumstances in which sonship is still recognized even when there is no biological relationship. The courts can grant sonship as a legal relationship, this is what adoption is all about. Now, I have some acquaintance with adoptions as my brother-in-law (my wife's brother) is adopted. Should you have been around my wife's family when Jack was young and not known that he was adopted, you would never have known that he was not the natural son of my wife's parent's. No Jack is not their son in a biological or natural sense. Yes Jack is their son in a legal sense. But there is more to it than just legal status, in terms of the interactions between them it is clear that Jack is their son most especially in the nature of the relationship between parent and child.

Likewise, I speak of having 8 children. Only two of those are biological children, one is a foster son, and 5 are exchange students that we have hosted. And while the relationship with each of my children is unique, it is best describe with each of them as that of parent-child. They call us "Mom" and "Dad" and we interact with them accordingly. Our foster-son, who came to us as a refuge from Vietnam, eventually became a citizen of the US and was finally able to sponsor his biological mother to come to this country, and thus a couple of years ago we were finally able to meet her. Now, by this time our son Hoa had grown up,. been living independently for severaly years, married and had to two kids. We made a trip for a visit and would meet his biological mother (now living with them also) for the first time in our lives. Yet so strong is the connection between us in the form of a parent-child relationship that we were introduced to each other with the following line: "Mom, Dad, this is my mom. Mom, this is Mom & Dad." And with that we were greeted with the biggest hug.

Some people don't seem to be able to fathom these sorts of relationship that don't fit the patterns that they are accustomed to. Confused, they ask me, now how many of them are your "real children"? What they mean is "natural" or "biological" children. But they use the term "real". And to that question my response is "all of them, last time I checked none of them were fakes."

The Son is not the biological son of the Father. But he is the Son. He isn't any less the Son because he is not the biological offspring or produced through some sort of reproductive process. Those might be one way that sonship is established, but it isn't the only way, and I suggest it isn't the most important. I don't think that the man and women who contributed the egg and sperm that became my brother-in-law Jack have any claims on parenthood. Beyond sharing some DNA, they are not Jack's mother and father in any meaningful way. It is rather the man and the woman who raised him, nurtured him, and helped him to become a man that are his "real" mother and father because that kinship is born not out of blood, but generated by the interactions borne out of their unique relationship to one another.

In the same way, the Son is the Son of the Father because of the unique nature of the interations of their relationship that is like no other.

Get it or not get it, it makes no difference to me. I know the nature of my relationship with my children whether you recognize it or not, because I in fact live it with them and they testify to that with me. And, likewise, whether any human being recognizes it or not, so too do the Father and the Son testify to the nature of their relationship with one another.

I got ya!

Poor. When did our discussions here become something to which one would ever conclude them with a statement like, "I got ya!"? The only thing you got out of that post is egg on your face for such a petulant way of conversing with another.


Apparently it was totally lost on leaders of main congregation in america who were the main cheerleaders for Bush' invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq that killed a million muslims in the name of "fighting evil"
You are so big on doubting 9/11 facts, asking for independent investigations. Please provide evidence that the "leaders of main congregation in amercia ...were the main cheerleaders for Bush' invasion and occupation of Afghanistand and Iraq". Do you even know what the "main" congregations in the USA are?

Please provide evidence that the invasion and occupation of Afghanistand and Iraq killed a million muslims. Certainly count "collateral" damage, but don't go counting those killed by Muslim on Muslim violence. If you want someone to blame for that, blame those who create and plant IEDs without regard to whether the victim is a US soldier or the neighbor boy. Blame those who recruit children to blow themselves up for political ends and lied to them about alleged blessings in paradise when the real Islamic teaching is that suicide is a pathway to hell.


How about the 800,000-1,000,000 killed in Rwanda where the main perpretators were churches leaders including priests, pastors and nuns? What about a million killed in congo?
How about them? Rwanda was horrific, and no doubt there were Christians, even clergy, involved in it. But the battle was political, civil, and ethnic. One did not here religion used as an excuse or justification for it. Unlike some folks feel a need to use jihaad as justification for the same goals in other places. In so doing, they not only prove themselves to be personally be nothing more than murders, then also make a mockery out of true Islam. Sadly, only in recent months have the voices within Islam decrying such activity begun to shot louder than those applauding it. But the good news is that it is beginning to happen.


How about the slaughtering of muslims in bosnia and kosovo where the christian europe sitting idle?
How about it? I'm not sure where you get this idea of a "Christian" Europe. I can't think of a more secular continent, except perhaps Australia. But who did step in a fight to protect the lives of Muslims? The same country that had Palestinians dancing in the streets when it was attacked a few years later.

All these are current massacres, not past history like the unspeakable crimes of the crusades and teh inquisitions.
And other than the religious strife in Kosovo, which went both ways, none of the other conflicts were motivated by religion, unless of course you are suggesting that the actions of the Taliban are not self defense but religious in nature.

Why do churches leaders keep repeating history and committing heinous crimes?
Is it because they believe that jesus has died for their sins so they have a free pass to heaven and so they can do anything they like?
We don't. You failed to prove that it is anyone acting as the leader of a church who are to blame for these actions.

By the way,
Is there a "Gospel according to Jesus?"

I'd love to read that.
Indeed there is. Luke 4:18-19 -- "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." This is a description of life in God's coming Kingdom. That was the message that Jesus primarily preached.

You can go to www.biblegateway.com to read Jesus parables about the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Though most people think the best illustration of Jesus' message contain in one is single unit is Jesus "Sermon on the Mount":
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."


When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
 
Since the question you posed is about sonship, let's look at sonship. To say that one is the son of another implies a relationship. Typically it implies a biological relationship. However, we all know of circumstances in which sonship is still recognized even when there is no biological relationship. The courts can grant sonship as a legal relationship, this is what adoption is all about. Now, I have some acquaintance with adoptions as my brother-in-law (my wife's brother) is adopted. Should you have been around my wife's family when Jack was young and not known that he was adopted, you would never have known that he was not the natural son of my wife's parent's. No Jack is not their son in a biological or natural sense. Yes Jack is their son in a legal sense. But there is more to it than just legal status, in terms of the interactions between them it is clear that Jack is their son most especially in the nature of the relationship between parent and child.

Is this another new way to insist that jesus pbuh was son of god? more elaborate than the egg-shell-yolk-white, and less amusing.

Graceseeker, let me ask you this: why do you insist that jesus pbuh is god?
because you were brought up as a christian and the church told you so?

Otherwise, please produce from your own scripture proof that jesus pbuh said "I am God"
 
Is this another new way to insist that jesus pbuh was son of god? more elaborate than the egg-shell-yolk-white, and less amusing.

Graceseeker, let me ask you this: why do you insist that jesus pbuh is god?
because you were brought up as a christian and the church told you so?

Otherwise, please produce from your own scripture proof that jesus pbuh said "I am God"


First, my scripture contains more than just Jesus' speaking. The words of these others in scripture can be just as authoritative Jesus' words. So, if any person in scriptrue should say, "Jesus is God" and have that statement accepted, that would have the very same weight as Jesus himself saying it. And indeed, there is record of just such a statement: Thomas (one of Jesus disciples) addresses Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Jesus doesn't repudiate this statement, but accepts it and blesses Thomas immediately thereafter.

That's suffiicient. We don't need any more than that. But, guess what, we do have more.

We have God himself being quoted in Hebrews referencing Jesus as God. We have the prologue to John's gospel identifying the Word as God and Jesus as the Word made flesh. The evidence is in the scriptures repeatedly. It doesn't take a theologian twisting every nuance out of the text to find it either. You may disagree with its message, but only those who close there eyes to it would be blind to what its message clearly is, that Jesus is God come to dwell among us.

As for why I believe it, well I didn't always. But I came to realize in time that I had no convincing argument for why the disciples would have told the story about him that they did, and suffered completely avoidable consequences for doing so, unless they believe it was true. And given that they were present to know what was and was not true, and still believe it, and that no one from that time ever was able to do the simplest thing in the world to contradict their message of Jesus being resurrected -- that is no one ever produced his body, not the soldiers guarding him, not the rabbis or priests who had him executed, not Pilate who was ultimately responsible for seeing to it, not Herod who wanted to silence him, none of them were ever able to silence the disciple with the trump card of all trump cards, Jesus' body. One presumes that if they would have had it, they would have played it. And if the disciples would have had it, or even simply had reason to doubt that Jesus was anything less than fully alive, they never would have done the things they did. So, I contend that Jesus was alive. And then as the scriptures go on to say, on this basis he is known as Lord and elevated to the right of God. That phrase is synonymous with saying that he is God. And, yes, since the scriptures say it, and no one denies it, I now believe it.
 
First, my scripture contains more than just Jesus' speaking.

I don't dispute that. No one ever does.
Your scripture contains maybe 99.99% other people stories and their opinions rather than those that can be allegedly accredited to jesus pbuh.
Hence there is no such "gospel accroding to jesus"

The words of these others in scripture can be just as authoritative Jesus' words. So, if any person in scriptrue should say, "Jesus is God" and have that statement accepted, that would have the very same weight as Jesus himself saying it

So, the words of other mere humans carry the same weight as god's?
And those "others" (writers) had not even been born when jesus pbuh left.
I don't know what else to say. God seems valued by christians less and less.
 
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Is that your standard (I am bolding the part)? So I'll take it that because the term "son of god" in the literal sense is impossible as well as illogical (in the monotheism religion as practiced by Abraham, Musa, and David), then Jesus as "the son of god" means that he is slave of god and servant of god instead of the actual son of god (just like the previous prophets had also been referred to as). I got ya!
Is this your standard "I got ya!", no interest in truth? If you wish to discuss the phrase "Son of God" then tell us the passage and we can look at it together - but its not your style to do that is it for I have asked your repeatedly where the teaching on the killing the Antichrist is but you clearly have no idea.
Do you even know how this verse is related to the verses before and after and how and why the verses were revealed (ie. the situation where/when the verses directed to?).
Well according to Islam they were written before time began, in the far reaches of entirety God constructed these verses wholly it seems according to you for the convenience of Muslims at a particular time. If one examines the historical and scholarly Islamic documents related to 9:5 and jihad and there is only one conclusion that can be drawn: 9:5 was meant to be both offensive and defensive and was meant for worldwide application. The theology of jihad is composed in part of verse 9:5 and in particular this verse applies to "polytheists". Corresponding to 9:5, 9:29 issues a similar edict of war upon Jews and Christians, forcing them to bow the knee to Islam in humility, pay extortion, or die. In this case it subjects man to a brutality, "believe or die", where son will turn against family, friends against friends, and blood spills if one challenges the belief of Muhammad’s dominance. You commentary and verses confirmed this so you position is that the injunction to violent Jihad is mandatory.

Yes, we do take this verse as literal. What is your problem here? Are you doubting God not able to transform jews (who became extremely obedient, read other verses related to it and you would understand how extremely obedient were the jews) into pigs and monkeys? This does not make sense to you?
No this does not make sense to me and to take it literally is an absurdity - that perhaps is your trouble, you are totally uncritical of Islam and its history, to you it is all perfect and logical. You see to be critical you have to begin by at least accepting that there may be faults so for you is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history that you are ashamed of - anything?
All these are current massacres, not past history like the unspeakable crimes of the crusades and the inquisitions.
I take it you do not regard the Muslim invasions, imperial crusades and subjugation of people right across the middle east as anything but wholly right and good? So churches leaders keep repeating history and committing heinous crimes but Muslims are all sweetness and light and cannot do anything wrong.
 
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Your scripture contains maybe 99.99% other people stories and their opinions rather than those that can be allegedly accredited to jesus pbuh.
Hence there is no such "gospel accroding to jesus". So, the words of other mere humans carry the same weight as god's? And those "others" (writers) had not even been born when jesus pbuh left.
I don't know what else to say. God seems valued by christians less and less.

For this to have any validity you have to show where we can find without doubt the words of God and of course whilst doing that you have to prove his existence as a pre-requisite. If we are going to be precise the Qu'ran was written down by human scribes and all on the word of a single witness.
 
Is this your standard "I got ya!", no interest in truth? If you wish to discuss the phrase "Son of God" then tell us the passage and we can look at it together - but its not your style to do that is it for I have asked your repeatedly where the teaching on the killing the Antichrist is but you clearly have no idea.

well then please allow me:
"The Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth" (2 Thess. 2:8).
Well according to Islam they were written before time began, in the far reaches of entirety God constructed these verses wholly it seems according to you for the convenience of Muslims at a particular time. If one examines the historical and scholarly Islamic documents related to 9:5 and jihad and there is only one conclusion that can be drawn: 9:5 was meant to be both offensive and defensive and was meant for worldwide application. The theology of jihad is composed in part of verse 9:5 and in particular this verse applies to "polytheists". Corresponding to 9:5, 9:29 issues a similar edict of war upon Jews and Christians, forcing them to bow the knee to Islam in humility, pay extortion, or die. In this case it subjects man to a brutality, "believe or die", where son will turn against family, friends against friends, and blood spills if one challenges the belief of Muhammad’s dominance. You commentary and verses confirmed this so you position is that the injunction to violent Jihad is mandatory.
The transcendent Quran isn't meant for the 'convenience of Muslims at a particular time' if that were the case, then the religion will have long perished and been akin to well Christianity. The Quran is for every time for all times and all people.
The God who created the world surely knows of the events that will take place in it, try to contrast that with a god who didn't know if a tree bore him fruit.


Also why not follow 9:5 by 9:6: (and I must admit I am surprised that quoted correctly for a change)
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

as for the rest, I mean you speak as if the god of the bible is so full of love?
let's examine shall we?
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  1. Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15
  2. Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5
  3. Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47
  4. "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5
  5. According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30
  6. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31
  7. Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32
  8. In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27 John
  9. As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16
  10. People are ****ed or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36
  11. The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36
  12. Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14
  13. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6
  14. Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66 Acts
  15. Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23
  16. Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10
  17. Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13
  18. Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-6
  19. The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23
  20. David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22
  21. The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34
  22. Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11 Romans
  23. Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death." 1:31-32
  24. The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5:9
  25. God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12 1 Corinthians
  26. If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17
  27. Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing *****dom with the daughters of Moab 10:8
  28. If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10:9
  29. If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10 2 Corinthians
  30. The terror of the Lord 5:11 Galatians (None)
    Ephesians
  31. We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
  32. God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7
  33. The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2
  34. Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6 Philippians (None)
    Colossians
  35. God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14
  36. God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20 1 Thessalonians
  37. God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10
  38. Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (becasue they're going to hell). 4:13 2 Thessalonians
  39. Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9
  40. Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8
  41. God will cause us to believe lies so that he can **** our souls to hell. 2:11-12 1 Timothy (None)
    2 Timothy (None)
    Titus (None)
    Philemon (None)
    Hebrews
  42. God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
  43. Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
  44. The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28
  45. God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20 James
  46. If you are merciless to others, God will be merciless to you. (Two wrongs make a right.) 2:13
  47. James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Rom.4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21 1 Peter
  48. We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or ****ed. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2
  49. "The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
    God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20
  50. God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20 2 Peter
  51. God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6
  52. "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes" 2:6
  53. God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7
  54. When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10 1 John
  55. Jesus' blood washes away human sin. 1:7 2 John (None)
    3 John (None)
    Jude
  56. "The Lord destroyed them that believed not." 5 Revelation
  57. Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5
  58. Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1:7
  59. Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18
  60. Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16
  61. "I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23
  62. "Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created predators, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11
  63. "Thou art worthy ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." 5:9
  64. God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2
  65. God gave power to someone on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4
  66. God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth's population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8
  67. The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11
  68. God tells his murderous angels to "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads." This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God's loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to "hurt the earth and the sea" just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3
  69. 144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4
  70. Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14
  71. God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8:7-13
  72. "Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." 8:11
  73. The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. 9:4-6
  74. God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10
  75. Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19
  76. Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks (God's witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5
  77. God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6
  78. After God's witnesses "have finished their testimony," they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11:7
  79. Their dead bodies lie unburied for three and a half days. People will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12
  80. When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. "The third woe cometh quickly." 11:13-14
  81. "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
    God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8
  82. Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11
  83. Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18
  84. "The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19-20
  85. Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 15:7
  86. The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1
  87. "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast." 16:2
  88. "The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." 16:3
  89. "The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." 16:4
  90. God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6
  91. An angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16:7
  92. "Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire." 16:8
  93. Those who were being burned to death by God didn't repent "to give him glory." 16:9
  94. "The fifth angel poured out his vial ... and they gnawed their tongues for pain." 16:10
  95. Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn't repent! 16:11
  96. Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14
  97. "They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17
  98. To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8
  99. God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9
  100. Jesus makes war. 19:11
  101. Jesus's clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name ("that no man knew") is "The Word of God". (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13
  102. With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15
  103. "Come ... unto the supper of the great God." An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, "both free and bond, both small and great." 19:17-18
  104. The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21
  105. God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10
  106. Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15
  107. All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8
I mean honestly where do you get off that holier than thou attitude and an all loving god, this is just a smidgen as I had no desire to copy the site in its entirety and here you are quoting a couple of verses out of context to showcase none other than your endless hatred and hypocrisy!

No this does not make sense to me and to take it literally is an absurdity - that perhaps is your trouble, you are totally uncritical of Islam and its history, to you it is all perfect and logical. You see to be critical you have to begin by at least accepting that there may be faults so for you is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history that you are ashamed of - anything?
Well again, what you take to be absurd should be taken by the rest by a grain of salt, for not only are you utterly ignorant of Islam and its history save for the cesspool you frequent and unable to verify of Islamic sources correctly, you seem to also exempt yourself from having that all too critical look at the bible? why is that do you suppose?
I take it you do not regard the Muslim invasions, imperial crusades and subjugation of people right across the middle east as anything but wholly right and good? So churches leaders keep repeating history and committing heinous crimes but Muslims are all sweetness and light and cannot do anything wrong.
Thank God, Muslims came and 'invaded' my country, for without their age of enlightenment we would have been left to similar dark ages of Christianity.. May Allah swt reward them for taking my country and other neighboring countries from the darkness into the light!

all the best
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τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1371592 said:
"The Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth" (2 Thess. 2:8).
As is usual with you we have 60% copied from http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and even then what you cited has been copied 108 times all over the place so I am absolutely certain you have not bothered to read any of it but later I will reply. If you were an honest observer than visit the sister site http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/ and here is a taste and there is plenty more

Absurdity in the Quran
We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils.--67:5

"This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)." There is no doubt about this or any other "Scripture". It is false. It wasn't revealed by God and it won't "ward off evil." 2:2

"Shall we believe as the foolish believe?"
According to the Quran, the answer is, yes. To be truly wise you must believe whatever the foolish believe. 2:13

"If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things." 2:20
And He taught Adam all the names."
Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

"And if ye are in doubt ... then produce a surah of the like thereof."
If you doubt that the truth of the Quran, then try making some stuff up and see how it compares. (Whatever you come up with will be better than the Quran.) 2:23
Allah commands the angels to worship Adam. They all do, except for Iblis, who becomes a disbeliever. 2:34

Allah struck Moses with lightening and then revived him just so that Moses would thank him for it! 2:55-56

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews at the time of Moses because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. But what prophets could they have killed and what revelations could they have rejected? Most of the prophets and revelations came later, didn't they? 2:61

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
"Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is."
A load of silly bull **** about a yellow cow. 2:67-71
To settle a murder mystery, Allah brought a murder victim back to life by hitting his dead body with a piece of the yellow cow. The risen man then identified his murderer! 2:72-3
 
As is usual with you we have 60% copied from http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and even then what you cited has been copied 108 times all over the place so I am absolutely certain you have not bothered to read any of it but later I will reply. If you were an honest observer than visit the sister site http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/ and here is a taste and there is plenty more



Any idiot knows where it has come from, do you have a point? You are sitting there taking a couple of verses out of context from the Quran with which to make your usual non-points, and I have shown you passages upon passages (which by the way I have read about your all loving god) with exactly that which has you so riled up.. are you equally critical of all that 'love' from your bible of god pillaging, and murdering of the 'innocents'? or that keen discerning critical eye only used when you yourself copy from a disgusting site? without cross referencing in the majority of cases if I may add!

all the best
 
We should be asking this question to Hitchens who is dying from esophageal cancer ..... maybe Dawkins should learn a thing or two from the disease of his friend.
 
I don't dispute that. No one ever does.
Your scripture contains maybe 99.99% other people stories and their opinions rather than those that can be allegedly accredited to jesus pbuh.
Hence there is no such "gospel accroding to jesus"



So, the words of other mere humans carry the same weight as god's?
And those "others" (writers) had not even been born when jesus pbuh left.
I don't know what else to say. God seems valued by christians less and less.

You mock the scriptures that actually record what multiple people heard God say and publish it within the lifetime of many of those same eye witnesses, yet then lift up as authoritative a set of scriptures that even by your own description (God to Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit to Muhammad, Muhammad to others, others to asundry pieces of paper, asundry pieces of paper to compiled Qur'an) bears a striking resemblence to the game of "Telephone."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion that Allah knows best. But I find it curious what you things you swallow and what things you turn your nose up at.
 
You mock the scriptures that actually record what multiple people heard God say and publish it within the lifetime of many of those same eye witnesses,

Grace seeker, you seem to believe your own lies. Is your faith that weak?

The New Testament (modern Christian Bible) was written in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine and his council in his own words. This fact is confirmed in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, which also states that any original text was altered, apparently in order to create some form of consistency across all documents.

Unfortunately, the copying of earlier texts, leaving some out, making some up, introduced many errors and inconsistencies in the modern Christian bible. For example in Genesis alone there are dozens. And example of these are as follows:

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

There were originally 252 commandments in the Old Testament, in Judaism there are 613 commands found in the Pentateuch (the first five books of Moses, a.k.a. The Torah.), and in the modern day Christian Bible a mere 10 commandments, not including Psalms and Proverbs.

So in summary man created the Bible. Many men writing earlier documents, and later copied, altered and modernized through the ages.

And if you are strong with your faith, you should be comfortable with this fact, no need to make up lies.
 
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Dawkins could learn that from a not-so-terrible disease, dont you think, especially not of his friend?

So what is it you think he should be learning then, and how is that different in your opinion from what a muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu etc, etc might learn from it?
 
Grace seeker, you seem to believe your own lies. Is your faith that weak?

The New Testament (modern Christian Bible) was written in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine and his council in his own words. This fact is confirmed in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, which also states that any original text was altered, apparently in order to create some form of consistency across all documents.

Unfortunately, the copying of earlier texts, leaving some out, making some up, introduced many errors and inconsistencies in the modern Christian bible. For example in Genesis alone there are dozens. And example of these are as follows:

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

There were originally 252 commandments in the Old Testament, in Judaism there are 613 commands found in the Pentateuch (the first five books of Moses, a.k.a. The Torah.), and in the modern day Christian Bible a mere 10 commandments, not including Psalms and Proverbs.

So in summary man created the Bible. Many men writing earlier documents, and later copied, altered and modernized through the ages.

And if you are strong with your faith, you should be comfortable with this fact, no need to make up lies.


We weren't talking about the whole of the Bible or any of what you reference here, we were specifically talking about the Biblical testimony regarding Jesus being God. The Gospel records that announce Jesus as good news for the world were written and circulated while there were still people living who had personally known Jesus. No such witnesses are available to testify to the accuracy of what Muhammad purports to be the recitation that he received.
 
We weren't talking about the whole of the Bible or any of what you reference here, we were specifically talking about the Biblical testimony regarding Jesus being God. The Gospel records that announce Jesus as good news for the world were written and circulated while there were still people living who had personally known Jesus. No such witnesses are available to testify to the accuracy of what Muhammad purports to be the recitation that he received.

for being so many years here and you dont even know what a sahabi is or a hadith is?

How long did it take the NT to actaully develop into the NT - a few hundred years. Wheres the chain of narrations? that go back to christ or even better where is the "good news" or The Gospel - instead we have a gospels according to - and even biblical scholars have become sceptic over the bible and who wrote it.

We also have people saying Jesus pbuh wasnt God.
 
We weren't talking about the whole of the Bible or any of what you reference here,

Good. So yo don't dispute the facts that I wrote.

The Gospel records that announce Jesus as good news for the world

in your language is good news = God?

because the gospels did NOT say that jesus was god. And the first three gospels did not even write jesus as "son of god", but he referred to himself as "son of man" instead.
So, according to paulian christians, a god refers to himself as "son of man" is acceptable?


were written and circulated while there were still people living who had personally known Jesus.

I'd like to see records of transmission from the writers of the bible all the way up to jesus, because as I have demonstrated in previous posts, the new testaments that you have today was not written when Jesus was still alive nor when his disciples were still alive.

Maybe you have something that the rest of the word do not?
 
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for being so many years here and you dont even know what a sahabi is or a hadith is? How long did it take the NT to actaully develop into the NT - a few hundred years. Wheres the chain of narrations? that go back to christ or even better where is the "good news" or The Gospel - instead we have a gospels according to - and even biblical scholars have become sceptic over the bible and who wrote it. We also have people saying Jesus pbuh wasnt God.

Well who wrote the Qu'ran - does your chain of narrators take us back to him - can we check it out with God?
 

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