Right Ho! Paradise...Now what?

[جوري]

in heaven there is that which no eye has seen, nor ears have heard.. I think that is an adequate summation of heaven.. 'Janna' (paradise) janna literally in Arabic denotes 'that which is hidden from sight'

Any hypotheticals raised by kaffirs and answered by a Muslim are utterly futile and ineffectual at this stage, considering none of us have been to heaven to speak so freely of it. Again and for the last time, we are described minor things of heaven that we all love simply because it is something the mind can relate to and contrast to worldly pleasures. Anything beyond that, of whether there will be horror movies or wings or the urge to murder or other gamut of emotions is not only as asinine as the minds that have ptyalized but is inconsequential to our current state of being .. anyone can argue any sort of nonsense to sway people from their due course...

sort of like your failure friend who keeps distracting you from studying for exams by mocking institutions, degrees professors and earning an honest living.

Some people are hard to satisfy, I think they are best left in their disoriented state to figure things out on their own..

 

[barney]

Eve, if they diddnt want to talk to us about it, they wouldnt.
It's not like we are going to change peeps minds on this and suddenly collapse theism on a forum with a few posts. Chill.

I think the Muslims or christians or jews who want to debate this with us should excercise their free will to do so. .....Whilst they still have it!!!!

 

[KAding]

What I can gather from that site is that we are all born with purity and the knowledge of the oneness of god and a desire to submit to him. Essentially everyone is a muslim from conception and they are swayed from the true path later on.

"The central hadith makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances."

Not so much impurities within you, but ignoring the purity you were born with by choice.

"Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature."

From this it seems that your ability to choose what you do or what you accept to believe determines whether you become a muslim or not and consequently your admittance to paradise.
Therefore in order to restrict a persons desire to do bad in paradise you would have to restrict their will, as their innate desire (fitrah) is to do good (in an islamic sense).

Hmm, perhaps. This is all a bit confusing.

Here is how I understand it now:

Premise #1: You are born pure
Premise #2: Free will is not the cause of impurities
Premise #3: God does not remove free will but only impurities when you enter Heaven
Premise #4: 'Social circumstances' in which you are born are the source of impurities

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil. So for this to work Heaven must have perfect 'social circumstances'!

 

[KAding]

in heaven there is that which no eye has seen, nor ears have heard.. I think that is an adequate summation of heaven.. 'Janna' (paradise) janna literally in Arabic denotes 'that which is hidden from sight'

Any hypotheticals raised by kaffirs and answered by a Muslim are utterly futile and ineffectual at this stage, considering none of us have been to heaven to speak so freely of it. Again and for the last time, we are described minor things of heaven that we all love simply because it is something the mind can relate to and contrast to worldly pleasures. Anything beyond that, of whether there will be horror movies or wings or the urge to murder or other gamut of emotions is not only as asinine as the minds that have ptyalized but is inconsequential to our current state of being .. anyone can argue any sort of nonsense to sway people from their due course...

sort of like your failure friend who keeps distracting you from studying for exams by mocking institutions, degrees professors and earning an honest living.

Some people are hard to satisfy, I think they are best left in their disoriented state to figure things out on their own..

Thank you for those kind words .

Perhaps you should see us as an opportunity rather than a threat? After all, discussions like this provoke Muslims to look very closely at their own scriptures. So it has three effects:
1. You might learn something yourself
2. You teach us
3. You can hone your conversion skills

 

[KAding]

From a Christian perspective, Heaven isn't really viewed as a physical paradise with trees, gardens, drink, etc, etc. Now we don't know exactly what form our existence will take in the afterlife, but I don't understand my Earthly or bodily desires to have much point at all in a spiritual afterlife. Perhaps this is another example of where Islam and Christianity differ.

Perhaps you are right. The way Islam depicts Hell, as an physical fire where the skin of your own physical body is burned off, makes it hard to not see it as earthly. After all the Qu'ran doesn't say 'your soul will be tormented for eternity', it says 'your body will be tormented for eternity'. Which more or less implies a physical place to which your earthly body is transported for punishment.

 

[Azy]

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil.

Then I don't understand where I went wrong. My family are not religious, I can't remember one word ever being said on the subject, I didn't go to a religious school or have friends who were outwardly religious. Despite a complete absence of external influences towards any religion or way of being, I had no innate desire to submit to god nor did I even consider him until my late school years. Why was I not compelled to accept god if it is within everyone from birth or before?

but is inconsequential to our current state of being

I wouldn't say that. If there was no concept of hell and no punishment in the afterlife then that would affect a person's decisions about their behaviour. Apparently humans can't be trusted to do the right thing on their own so they need a myriad of rules and threats of eternal flame to keep them on the straight and narrow.

The literal alternative given in scripture is having young boys follow you around as you walk along the bank of a warm milk river. The slightly more appealing version is unending aeons of lobotomised bliss where you can do whatever you want so long as it's on the menu.

 

[جوري]

Eve, if they diddnt want to talk to us about it, they wouldnt.
It's not like we are going to change peeps minds on this and suddenly collapse theism on a forum with a few posts. Chill.

I think the Muslims or christians or jews who want to debate this with us should excercise their free will to do so. .....Whilst they still have it!!!!

I detest benumbing sessions don't you?....surely you can tell the difference between mutual expression of opposing views and plain moronity?

Hmm, perhaps. This is all a bit confusing.

Here is how I understand it now:

Premise #1: You are born pure
Premise #2: Free will is not the cause of impurities
Premise #3: God does not remove free will but only impurities when you enter Heaven
Premise #4: 'Social circumstances' in which you are born are the source of impurities

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil. So for this to work Heaven must have perfect 'social circumstances'!

I agree with that in part.. but I believe it is one's own nature and inclination as well.. many verses in the Quran allude that it is the nature, the heart of man that leads his aright or astray and to me there is no greater expression of free will... I reference you to Suret Al-Anfal if interested in a further elaboration on that?

I wouldn't say that. If there was no concept of hell and no punishment in the afterlife then that would affect a person's decisions about their behaviour. Apparently humans can't be trusted to do the right thing on their own so they need a myriad of rules and threats of eternal flame to keep them on the straight and narrow.

The literal alternative given in scripture is having young boys follow you around as you walk along the bank of a warm milk river. The slightly more appealing version is unending aeons of lobotomised bliss where you can do whatever you want so long as it's on the menu.

What you say, is a product of your own mind and has no basis in reality or even in religious jurisprudence, nor does it provide or find its foundation in anything other than the depraved mind of an angry down on his luck atheist and is therefore of no consequence!

a word to the wise.. enjoy life.. a few months ago I attended the autopsy on a 25 year old.. can't imagine a more grievous way to spend ones 'rather short life' save for confabulating on random forums asking preposterous questions and not particularly looking for answers, or not finding any answer satisfactory......


Some people make a more impressive existence as anatomical gifts rather than functional human beings --which is such a shame, a shame the organization and intelligent thought that goes into any of the numerous biochemical reactions that occur in the body on their own volition, or in nature or in the universe, while not a single profound impressive thought will cross your cerebral hemispheres!

cheers

 

[جوري]

Perhaps you are right. The way Islam depicts Hell, as an physical fire where the skin of your own physical body is burned off, makes it hard to not see it as earthly. After all the Qu'ran doesn't say 'your soul will be tormented for eternity', it says 'your body will be tormented for eternity'. Which more or less implies a physical place to which your earthly body is transported for punishment.

You should read more about punishment in hell if interested as there are volumes of literature... people will have different bodies than the one they have on this earth, but will have bodies nonetheless.. in fact on this very thread a few pages ago, I have enclosed suret al-waqi3a, let me see if I can re-link it here http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ight-ho-paradise-now-what-4.html#post887917--
skin in hell will constantly be replaced.. people's preception of pain doesn't extend to third and fourth degree burns due to lack of nerve endings, only first and 2nd degree burns are extremely painful.. hence the constant replacement!

Punishment of the grave befalls the soul while punishment upon resurrection is that of the body-- and eternally!...


cheers

 

[Trumble]

skin in hell will constantly be replaced.. people's preception of pain doesn't extend to third and fourth degree burns due to lack of nerve endings, only first and 2nd degree burns are extremely painful.. hence the constant replacement!

Punishment of the grave befalls the soul while punishment upon resurrection is that of the body-- and eternally!...

Its utterly beyond my comprehension how an entity sadistic enough to come up with that could possibly be reconciled with the 'all merciful' God we keep hearing about. It can't, of course; its throwing logic to the wind in order to dream up horror stories to scare the children (and the gullible with less excuse) into line. Surely Islam can move on from such medieval clap-trap?

 

[barney]

Its interesting how you meld your doctors intelligence with scriptural promises.
We must have very different bodies indeed, for the second degree burns to actually be replaced.
I know that your aware of skin regeneration properties to a far greater excess than i am.

Would this involve a wholly complete cell reconstruction , (which would anchor the events within human understanding), from outside the subdermis, or are we talking "God steps in and Makes a new skin".

That would neccssitate a fairly long period of healing for the epidermis to regenerate in which time frame , i suppose, the pain would really become the norm, and the actual torment would be the boredom.


Akin to heaven.

 

[جوري]

Its utterly beyond my comprehension how an entity sadistic enough to come up with that could possibly be reconciled with the 'all merciful' God we keep hearing about. It can't, of course; its throwing logic to the wind in order to dream up horror stories to scare the children (and the gullible with less excuse) into line. Surely Islam can move on from such medieval clap-trap?

It is beyond your comprehension I agree...

cheers

 

[جوري]

Its interesting how you meld your doctors intelligence with scriptural promises.
We must have very different bodies indeed, for the second degree burns to actually be replaced.
I know that your aware of skin regeneration properties to a far greater excess than i am.

Would this involve a wholly complete cell reconstruction , (which would anchor the events within human understanding), from outside the subdermis, or are we talking "God steps in and Makes a new skin".

That would neccssitate a fairly long period of healing for the epidermis to regenerate in which time frame , i suppose, the pain would really become the norm, and the actual torment would be the boredom.


Akin to heaven.

wound healing by earth's physical laws? lol
hope your prone to keloids.. they'll buffer the shock...
surely even you can think in more abstract terms?

cheers

 

[Trumble]

It is beyond your comprehension I agree...

And yours, presumably, as you seem unable to provide any plausible explanation for such a glaring contradiction!

 

[barney]

Meh, thats ok. Im cool with contradictions from eve. Its all instructive.

Night folks..getting late here in the center of idolatry that is england. Sleep tight.

 

[جوري]

Thank you for those kind words .

Perhaps you should see us as an opportunity rather than a threat? After all, discussions like this provoke Muslims to look very closely at their own scriptures. So it has three effects:
1. You might learn something yourself
2. You teach us
3. You can hone your conversion skills

my humble apologies, I seem to have replied to you in a post that you'd directed to another...

1-I fail to see how writing mindless drivel can be construed as a threat to me personally? Nothing has value unless I choose to give it value, to be honest, and this is truly out of frankness I couldn't give a flying fig what atheists think, and I don't believe they have much an impact in the sceheme of things I view some of them as pesky nuisance.. amusing in the beginning, but eventually so lacking in interest as to cause mental weariness..

2-It seems to me foolish to look for one's education on various blogs and on the hands on unemployed atheists with too much free time on their hands?

3- like wise I don't think the majority of you are here to learn.. it is something in the presentation.. I know we subtract 'tone of voice and body language' but sincereity and the love of learning, is always visible to the naked eyes... hence I ask others from refraining of answering inane questions and propositions.. my utlimate goal is so to not subject anything holy to the usual mindless ridicule...

4- conversion skills? lol to be honest I couldn't care less what becomes of anyone' soul... each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds..it is not a community effort!

cheers

 

[جوري]

And yours, presumably, as you seem unable to provide any plausible explanation for such a glaring contradiction!

Allah SWT doesn't need a defense, he is well acquainted with who deserves what.. I am in no mood for analogies..

cheers

 

[جوري]

Meh, thats ok. Im cool with contradictions from eve. Its all instructive.

you can eliminate feces and write too?...awe-inspiring!!!

cheers...

 

[Azy]

What you say, is a product of your own mind and has no basis in reality or even in religious jurisprudence, nor does it provide or find its foundation in anything other than the depraved mind of an angry down on his luck atheist and is therefore of no consequence!

Even if I were an atheist, and down on my luck, I would much prefer that to being an arrogant theist. All your retorts seem to consist of casting aspersions on my character rather than making an actual point.

a word to the wise.. enjoy life.. a few months ago I attended the autopsy on a 25 year old.. can't imagine a more grievous way to spend ones 'rather short life' save for confabulating on random forums asking preposterous questions and not particularly looking for answers, or not finding any answer satisfactory......

Say for example you came across a Gordonist, some religion you'd never heard of before, and he tells you that the human body was made whole and perfect and that any tampering with it is useless. If someone has a liver or kidney failure, attempting to replace it would be pointless and should not even be attempted. He's got a leaflet and some websites that describe why organ transplantation is not viable.
Would you say "hang on a second, I've seen a kidney transplant and even though I've not seen a liver transplant, I read the medical journals and I know it can be performed"?

 

[------]

:salamext:

rather than making an actual point.

even if we repeat the same post over and over again, u will not accept anything, nor will u want to open ur mind. thats u then innit. not our fault

 

[جوري]

Even if I were an atheist, and down on my luck, I would much prefer that to being an arrogant theist. All your retorts seem to consist of casting aspersions on my character rather than making an actual point.

you seem to be under some false impression that you are bringing something of value to the table that merits some sort of a thoughtful response?.. I direct the dear reader's attention to your subsequent paragraph as an exemplification of your logic or lackthereof!

Say for example you came across a Gordonist, some religion you'd never heard of before, and he tells you that the human body was made whole and perfect and that any tampering with it is useless. If someone has a liver or kidney failure, attempting to replace it would be pointless and should not even be attempted. He's got a leaflet and some websites that describe why organ transplantation is not viable.
Would you say "hang on a second, I've seen a kidney transplant and even though I've not seen a liver transplant, I read the medical journals and I know it can be performed"?

what sort of arbitrary and reasonless analogy is this? lol.. thank you for providing me with excellent comic relief for the day ;D ;D ;D

cheers