Salafi Publications and Allah's transcendence

[Andaraawus]

As-Salamu Alaykum

I was known for being staunch against the Salafi Movement, i was told that Salafis believe that Allah sits on his chair and things of this nature.

However after reading a few Salafi publications i found this to be a strawman arguement raised against the Salafi Organisation.

the following quotations are what i came across whilst reading such books as Kitaab ut Tawheed and Authentic Creed, in which i was taught NOT to touch these books.

I am just a researcher, reporting my findings and in all fairness, considering that i was against the very writers of these books and I may have falsly accused them without having the knowledge.

I therefore take back any statements i may have said and present the following:


in a footnote of chapter two of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhabs Kitaabu Tawheed Allah’s transcendence was discussed wherein the translator says

‘it should not be misunderstood that Allah is contained within the heavens or the earth since he has described himself in the Quran as transcendent, Most High, above all, i.e. in 2:255, 20:5,25:59 and many places elsewhere in His book. Indeed the statement is another proof that Allah cannot be considered within the creation. (Detailed explanation can be seen in ‘fathul majeed Sharh Kitabut Tawheed)

(Kitaab ut Tawheed Chapter two, Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, found in ‘The Concise Collection On Creed & Tawheed’ pg 38 Dar us Salam Publications)

I also had the opportunity to sit and read ‘The Authentic Creed’ by Abdul Aziz Bin Abdullah Bin Baz and in his chapter ‘Belief in Allah’ he documents the following

‘Belief in Allah also necessitates the belief in His Beautiful Names and Lofty Attributes that are clearly stated in the Quran and are authentically mentioned by His Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). We should believe in all His Attributes without changing them, completely ignoring them, twisting their meanings, or claiming that they resemble human attributes. Rather, we should believe in these Attributes and describe Allah in a manner that suits His Majesty and Grandeur, for none of His creatures resembles Him in any way.

The Quran says: "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer." (Soorah 42: 11)

"Invent not similitude’s for Allah. Truly, Allah knows and you know not." (Soorah 16:74)

Such is the creed of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, the Companions of the Prophet and those who follow in their foot steps. Imam Abu Al-Hasan Al-Ash'ari mentioned this creed n his book 'Al-Maqalat 'an Ashabil-Hadithi wa Ahlis-Sunnah.
Other leading scholars have also mentioned this true creed in their works.

Imam A1-Awza said:
"Az-ZuhrI and Makhul were inquired about the Verses which talk about Allah’s Attributes and they replied, 'Leave them as they are." That is, do not interpret them.

Al-Walid bin Muslim said:
"Malik, Al-Awza'i, Al-Laith bin Sa'd, and Sufyan Ath-Thawri, may Allah have mercy upon them, were asked about the narration concerning Allah's Attributes, and they all said to believe in them all without interpreting their meanings.

Al-AwzA'i said:
"We used to say in the presence of At-TAbi'un, the successors of the Prophet's Companions, that Allah is over His Throne, and we believed in all the Prophetic traditions concerning Allah's Attributes.

When Rabi'ah bin Abu 'Abdur-Rahman, the teacher of Imam Malik, was asked about the Verse,

"Allah rose over His Throne." (Soorah 7:54)

He replied:
"Allah's rising over the Throne is not to be denied, to imagine the manner in which this is done is impossible, the Message is from Allah, the Prophet conveyed this Message, and we have to believe in it as it is."

When Imam Malik himself was inquired about the manner in which Allah rose over the Throne, he replied: "Allah's action of rising over the Throne is known, the manner in which this was done is not known, the belief in this matter is obligatory, and inquiring about this manner is an innovation in religion, or Bid'ah.

"Then he addressed the inquirer thus, "You are but an evil person." Then he asked people around him to send him out.
Umm Salamah, the Prophet's wife, is reported to have made the same statement.

Imam Abu 'Abdur-Rahman 'Abdullah bin Al-Mubarak said in his connection:
"We know that our Lord, Glorious is He, is over His Throne and over His heavens, distinct from His creation."

The religious scholars have written so much on this subject that it is impossible to quote them all in this treatise. Whoever is interested to find out more about this subject can refer to works written by scholars of Sunnah in this regard. These include, among other things, 'Abdullah bin Imam Ahmad's As-Sunnah, Muhammad bin Khuzaimah's At-Tawhid, Abul Qasimat-Tabari's As-Sunnah. One can also refer to Imam Ibn Taimiyyah's reply to the people of Hamat, Syria, in which he delineated the belief of Ahius-Sunnah. He also included in this reply the statements of Ahlus-Sunnah as well as logical and textual evidence from the Quran and the Sunnah supporting their position and exposing their opponents' opinions. He also dealt with the subject in his treatise known as Ar-Risalatu At-Tadmiriyyah in which he cited the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah along with logical and textual evidence from the Quran and the Sunnah, leaving no room for argument for the objective seekers of Truth.

Whoever adopts other than the position of Ahlus-Sunnah as to the issue of Allah's Names and Attributes will certainly contravene massive logical and textual evidence from the Quran and the Sunnah.

Ahlus-Sunnah have confirmed all the Names and Attributes that Allah confirmed for Himself either in the Quran or through the authentic traditions of the Prophet (PBUH), without changing them completely, twisting their meaning, ignoring them or likening them to those of His creatures. They have taken into account all possible proofs and have thus avoided falling into obvious contradictions. It is Allah's Plan to make the argument of those objective and sincere seekers of the Truth supreme:

"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it destroys it, and behold, falsehood is vanished." (Soorah21:18)

"And no question do they bring to you but We reveal to you the Truth and the best explanation (thereof)
."(Soorah 25:33)

Commenting on the Verse:
"Indeed your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and then He rose over the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty)." (Soorah 7:54)

The renowned exegete of the Quran, or Mufassir, Al-Hafiz Ibn KathIr said:
"People in this regard adopt far too many different opinions, which are not possible to cite here. However, we adopt in this regard the position of (the righteous predecessors)
, As-Salaf us-Salih, past and present, such as Malik, Al-Awza'i, Ath-Thawri, Al-Laith bin Sa'd, Ash-Shafi'i, Ahmad and Ishaq binRahwaih. They all believed in Allah's Attributes without twisting their meanings, ignoring them completely, or likening them to those of His creatures."

And whatever image comes to our minds about Allah should be rejected, for

"There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer." (Soorah 42:11)

Nu'aim Al-KhuzA'i, the teacher of ImAm A1-BukhAri, said: Whoever likens Allah to His creatures is a disbeliever, and whoever denies the Attributes that Allah ascribes to Himself is a disbeliever. It is impossible to liken Allah to any of His Creatures. Guided are those who confirm to Allah the Attributes, in a manner suiting His Majesty, mentioned in the clear Qur’aanic Verses and authentic Prophetic traditions and rejects all blemishes as to Allah's Attributes."

if anybody has any more references to add to this subject then please do so...and wasalams.

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

Kitaabu Tawheed by Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab is an excellent book. He is an excellent writer Masha Allah. People make false accusation of great shaykhs, that when you ask them have you given read their writings or ever attended their talks. The answer is almost always “No.” May Allah guide us all.

 

[Takumi]

I personally detest labelling. Salafi, sufi, or whatever they want to call themselves do not benefit us.

My teacher and I were discussing this at length and of course he told me that even you follow the minhaj of salaf, labelling yourself salafi won't do you any good.

For many people it just brings out I'm holier than thou attitude.

Okay, people, if you call youselves salafi, this post is not about you. It's about my opinion and since this is a forum, opinions are allowed, the worse thing that could happen to me is that this post be deleted since it may be off topic a bit.

Why do I find myself justifying my opinion with underlying worry that people will take my post personally? This is indeed sad. Sigh..

 

[Syed Hussain]

ASW
i thought salafis were people that follow just hadith and sunnah strictly. they are good people and i havent heard anything like this fro them. allah knows best
ASW

 

[Abu Omar]

Wa aleykum salaam wa rahmatullaah.

I was known for being staunch against the Salafi Movement, i was told that Salafis believe that Allah sits on his chair and things of this nature.

Allaah (swt) do sits on His Throne. We are told this in the Quran and the Sunnah. The belief Wahdat al-Wujood (that Allaah dwells withing His creation) is kufr, and that belief is what many Sufis believe in. Allaah, Ar-Rahmaan, sits on His Throne above the creation. Althought we may not understand how, but that's how it is.

Also there isn't really something like a "Salafi organization". There are differences between the different groups and people that ascribe themselves as Salafis.

 

[Andaraawus]

As-Salamu Alaykum

Allah is over the throne, to say He sits .....please cut out such ....edit yours and i will edit mine ....fair deal .....

 

[Mawaddah]

We Salafies do not beleive that Allah is 'sitting' on his throne, rather that Allah is 'above' his throne, Remember the Prophet peace be upon him saying "Wal 'arshu fawqal maa' wallahu fawqal 'arsh" and the Throne is above the water, and Allah is above the throne

Also, I want to say that those books you mentioned brother are excellent books and are recommended for beginners in Islaam

Wassalamu'alaikum

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Allaah (swt) do sits on His Throne.

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Allah swt is ascended over His Throne, He is NOT sitting on it. To say such would be to ascribe a human quality to God.

Please make use of the articles available in this section:
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-divisions/

Please do not use this thread for sectarian debates. As Muslims, we follow Islam as it was revealed by Allah in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet in the Sunnah and as it was understood by the early generations of Muslims.

 

[Andaraawus]

As-Salamu alaykum

Im sorry if you see this as a sectarian issue, howver i dont see it as such, this is where those who accuse salafis of such are wrong, the believe that they claim , aboout Allah being transcendent , above time and space , not within His creation , without need of sitting ...i find the salafis believe the same ....id rather call it talking past each other ....it all boils down to orthodox creed whether youre a 'salafi' or not.

on this issue the majority of Muslims agree, but they dont agree with each other despite their agreement , they choose to disagree on what they agree about ....and make false accusations on one another ...wasalams

 

[Takumi]

Will I go to hell fire if I publicly proclaim that I'm not salafi?

 

[Khaldun]

The problem arises if a clearly deviant person says Im muslim just like brother Takumi (just an example brother) I totally understand that the name calling can be abit hard to understand at times, but in certain circumstances it is needed. We are all muslims, trying our best to follow the pious salaf (predesccors)

 

[Snowflake]

(why is aslam alaikum on the left side of the icons) :?


*Takes a deep breath*

OK, unfortunately, I'm not well read about the topic going on here but I still have some ideas about how I interpret things. I may be wrong but if I am at least someone will point it out, so it'll better my knowledge anyway.

This ayah is from the Quran, therefore we cannot ignore it: "Allah rose over His Throne." (Soorah 7:54)

However, my interpretation is that although Allah is not a physical being and therefore does not need a physical throne in that sense, the place where Allah resides is described as the 'throne'. For example, when Allah subhana ta'ala gives orders to the angels, they assemble in a chosen spot, like a gathering place for such purposes. The place where Allah exudes his almighty power from is termed as the 'throne'. I know this doesn't sound great, but if you think of a light bulb, which is in one spot yet it's light is all over the room, is my way of explaining this. I feel that similarly Allah is 'together' where ever He chooses to be, yet his power, knowledge, mercy (all attributes) reach all over the universe.

*wonders what she's got herself into* :embarrass

Ok, I've found some ayahs from the Quran, and they explain what I am trying to say....


Al-Hadeed 57: 4 reads as:
It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then He mounted the throne [of control]"

Hu'd 11: 7 reads as:
It was Him Who made the heavens and the earth in six days, and [at that time] His throne [of control] was on the waters


Qaaf 50: 16 reads as:
We created man and We [even] know the promptings of his mind. We are closer to him than his life vein

I think the last verse shows that indeed Allah's presence is everywhere. So my light bulb example wasn't too daft then. Isn't this what the sufi's believe, which so many people are against? I'm asking not telling.

*needs a break* :rollseyes

 

[Khaldun]

Allah is with us by His Knowledge. And the throne mentioned in the Quran does exsist, and we should not make these into metaphores like other deviant people have done. When Allah says "ArRahamnu 'Alal 'Arshis Stawa" (The Most Beneficiant istawa on the throne) we should adopt the stands of the salaf, when they were asked about this.

Istawa (raising) is well known. The "How-ness" is not known. Faith in it is Wajib (must). Questions concerning it is Bid'ah (innovation).
Kitaab Al-Imaan pp. 17-18
​

 

[Takumi]

I'm a sufi. I don't believe Allah's presence is everywhere. I believe that He is over His 'Arsy. However that is. It's not my business. Oh ya, I'm a salafi too [please tell me I got some jannah points for that! ]

I don't dig wahdatul wujood or calling on Uwais al Qarni when I need help. Nor do I declare someone is ahlul bid'ah the moment they don't conform to my beliefs.

All I know is that, the most muttaqi of all men/women was the prophet of Allah. His way is Al Quran and His sunnah. all other men, Malik, Muhammad Idrees, Nu'man ibn Thabit, Ahmad ibn Hanbal were men and they made mistakes. don't forget Bin Baaz, Al Baani, Shinqitiy, Qardhawi, Adhami, Al Banna, Muhammad Qutb, Rumi, Jilani, Junaid al Baghdadi, Ibrahim ibn Adham: They were all mortals who died and are going to die and they made mistakes. They can't be more knowledgable than the prophet himself about Allah and this deen. They can't be more pious either. If they give that impression or their followers give me that impression, I'll be the first one to tell them: IttaqiLlah!

Al Quran was sent to guide us, the common man/woman. It shouldn't take 3000 pages just to explain one word. If Allah says He has hands, then, He has hands. How does His hands look like? It's none of my business, because He says, "wa lam yakul lahoo kufuwan ahad(un)" [and nothing is like Him]. If he sees, He sees. If He comes down, he comes down. All in His own unique way. If he's closer to us than our jugular vein, then He's closer.

Allah is not dumb. He doesn't use language to confuse us. True, to fully understand the Quran [sorry, there isn't a thing called 'partly understand', is there?] there's this whole shebang about grammar, rhetoric, poetry of the jahiliy, sarf [what do you call this in english?] that one has to master but only to deepend one's faith and make it easy for people like to follow Allah's orders.

You don't have label yourself salafi or sufi just to understand that.

They are among us who are as scholarly as Ibn Abbas and Ibn Masood but, people like me, who's just like the Bedouin who wants to lead a simple life, we want to understand Al Quran and read it like the prophet did. That's all.

 

[Khaldun]

I'm a sufi. I don't believe Allah's presence is everywhere. I believe that He is over His 'Arsy.

What makes a sufi? And if Allah isnt everywhere wouldnt you consider that restricting? Just something to think about.

They were all mortals who died and are going to die and they made mistakes.

The Prophet died aswell, and he was reprimand for certain actions. I am sure you know the story behind surah Abasa, and indeed the prophet was a mere mortal. Although we both know he was aided by Allah, I am only pointing out this to say they were all mortals.

They can't be more knowledgable than the prophet himself about Allah and this deen. They can't be more pious either. If they give that impression or their followers give me that impression, I'll be the first one to tell them: IttaqiLlah!

MashAllah, so you would agree that we should follow the Quran and Sunnah to most of our capabilities. :brother:

Al Quran was sent to guide us, the common man/woman. It shouldn't take 3000 pages just to explain one word. If Allah says He has hands, then, He has hands. How does His hands look like? It's none of my business, because He says, "wa lam yakul lahoo kufuwan ahad(un)" [and nothing is like Him]. If he sees, He sees. If He comes down, he comes down. All in His own unique way. If he's closer to us than our jugular vein, then He's closer.

Even during the time of the companions they used to ask eachother about the meanings of certain words that might have had more then one meaning. So these explanations are all preserved for us so we dont go astray. As for the hands it all falls under the category I just posted about.

We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; [Surah Al Imran Ayah 7]

Allah is not dumb. He doesn't use language to confuse us. True, to fully understand the Quran [sorry, there isn't a thing called 'partly understand', is there?] there's this whole shebang about grammar, rhetoric, poetry of the jahiliy, sarf [what do you call this in english?] that one has to master but only to deepend one's faith and make it easy for people like to follow Allah's orders.

Indeed Allah is not dumb, it is the people who are dumb. Throughout the ages people have misinterpreted verses some out of pure mistake may Allah forgive them, others did it knowingly trying to justify their ridiculuse claims may Allah curse them.

You don't have label yourself salafi or sufi just to understand that.

Again we are all muslims, but we follow the salaf.

Follow my Sunnah, and the sunnah of my successors!​

They are among us who are as scholarly as Ibn Abbas and Ibn Masood but, people like me, who's just like the Bedouin who wants to lead a simple life, we want to understand Al Quran and read it like the prophet did. That's all.

I doubt that very much, yet Allah knows best. But in the light of the hadith it doesnt seem likely.

"The best of my Ummah is my generation, then those who follow them, then those who follow them."​

Not to mention that they had the access to the Prophet first hand.

In short we should all strive in understanding the Quran and sunnah correctly may Allah help us.

 

[Takumi]

What makes a sufi? And if Allah isnt everywhere wouldnt you consider that restricting? Just something to think about.



In short we should all strive in understanding the Quran and sunnah correctly may Allah help us.

I don't know. I'm just following along. You know, so that I have the sense of belonging to the muslims.

I don't consider that restricting. If Allah is everywhere, then He's in the toilet bowl right now, or in the poop itself? God forbid.

 

[Khaldun]

lol i knew youd say that, yet Allah is everywhere with His knowledge He is aware of everything happening, and yes even in the toilet! Otherwise, you could escape Allah in the toilet God Forbid, does that make sense?

 

[Takumi]

Well, which one is it. Is Allah's Knowledge Everywhere or Allah itself is everywhere?

 

[Khaldun]

I never said Allah is everywhere in person :brother: I just reiterate what the salaf have always said, Allah is everywhere with His knowledge

 

[Takumi]

okay then...

that's exactly what i meant. Still Allah is above arsy, and He Knows Everthing.

wow...i never knew i was a salafi...