panIslamist
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How is he powerless if he is invoking him for help?
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How is he powerless if he is invoking him for help?
panIslamist said:
How is he powerless if he is invoking him for help?
Powerless as in:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ".
Now can this person be a mushrik. Let me put it this way, has there ever been a mushrik on planet earth who will testify to the above?
panIslamist
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tru_nigga said:
"And if you ask them who created them, they will surely say "Allaah." (Soorat uz-Zukhruf, 43:87)
"Ask them: 'Who sends down for you your provision from the sky and grows it out of the earth? Who hears your prayer and sees your condition? Who brings the living out of the dead and the dead out of the living? Who directs the course of the world?' They will answer: 'Allaah.' Answer: 'Would you then not fulfill your duty to Him?'" [Qur'an 10:32]
The mushrikoon believed that this universe had a Creator who has no partners. However, they associated partners along with Allaah in worship. So, they believed that the Lord of the universe is one, but believed that other things deserved to be worshipped as well.
Read: http://www.calltoislam.com/article_page.php?article=23
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Interesting, i have some more for you:
39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.
10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"
31:25 If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "(Allah)". Say: "Praise be to Allah." But most of them understand not.
(23:84-87) Muhammad), say to them, "Tell me, if you know, to whom does the earth and its contents belong?" They will quickly reply, "It belongs to God." Say, "Will you not, then, take heed?" Ask tthem, "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Great Throne?"
They will quickly say, "It is God." Say, "Will you not then have fear of Him?"
Lets look at these verses again and lets compare them to what we were saying. Now we had this:
"that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".
Now lets look at the verses again. Do you see something missing? Hint:
39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.
And this:
Does a Muslim go out of Islam if he visits the grave of a Sahabi or a pious servant of Allahu ta'ala, vows something for him, cuts an animal near a grave, prays making a mediator of a dead person, takes some soil from such a grave to receive blessings or asks help from Rasulullah or a Sahabi to get redeemed from danger? Is it permitted to kill such a Muslim even though he says, 'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. I make an intercessor, mediator, of that person with Allahu ta'ala to make me attain my wish, because, I believe that he is a beloved servant of Allahu ta'ala.' Does a person go out of Islam if he swears by something [or somebody] other than Allah? END QUOTE
Do you see now what is missing from the verses i quoted?
39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.
10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"
31:25 If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "(Allah)". Say: "Praise be to Allah." But most of them understand not.
(23:84-87) Muhammad), say to them, "Tell me, if you know, to whom does the earth and its contents belong?" They will quickly reply, "It belongs to God." Say, "Will you not, then, take heed?" Ask tthem, "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Great Throne?"
They will quickly say, "It is God." Say, "Will you not then have fear of Him?"
Lets look at these verses again and lets compare them to what we were saying. Now we had this:
"that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".
Now lets look at the verses again. Do you see something missing? Hint:
39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.
And this:
Does a Muslim go out of Islam if he visits the grave of a Sahabi or a pious servant of Allahu ta'ala, vows something for him, cuts an animal near a grave, prays making a mediator of a dead person, takes some soil from such a grave to receive blessings or asks help from Rasulullah or a Sahabi to get redeemed from danger? Is it permitted to kill such a Muslim even though he says, 'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. I make an intercessor, mediator, of that person with Allahu ta'ala to make me attain my wish, because, I believe that he is a beloved servant of Allahu ta'ala.' Does a person go out of Islam if he swears by something [or somebody] other than Allah? END QUOTE
Do you see now what is missing from the verses i quoted?
panIslamist
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Yes thank you for proving my points (with those verses) which is conincidentally the 4 Rules of Tawheed by Shaykh Abdul Wahhab Ra.
These are:
1) The polytheists of Makkah did believe that Allah is indeed the Creator, Provider, Maker of the heavens and the earths. This was not enough to make them Muslims, and Rasoolullah(Saaws) was their enemy.
2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.
3) Rasoolullah(Saaws) encountered people from several different religions. Some worshipped stones, others worshipped the sun and moon, and others worshipped the prophets and saints. Yet, he fought them ALL.
4) The polytheists who call themselves believers and Muslims today are worse than the polytheists that Rasoolullah(Saaws). They used to do their shirk in times of ease, but in hard times they would worship Allah alone with complete sincerity. As for today's polytheists, they do their shirk at all times, whether good or bad.
From: http://www.calltoislam.com/article_page.php?article=23
These are:
1) The polytheists of Makkah did believe that Allah is indeed the Creator, Provider, Maker of the heavens and the earths. This was not enough to make them Muslims, and Rasoolullah(Saaws) was their enemy.
2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.
3) Rasoolullah(Saaws) encountered people from several different religions. Some worshipped stones, others worshipped the sun and moon, and others worshipped the prophets and saints. Yet, he fought them ALL.
4) The polytheists who call themselves believers and Muslims today are worse than the polytheists that Rasoolullah(Saaws). They used to do their shirk in times of ease, but in hard times they would worship Allah alone with complete sincerity. As for today's polytheists, they do their shirk at all times, whether good or bad.
From: http://www.calltoislam.com/article_page.php?article=23
Another hint!
'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. "
Versus:
We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah.
The answer is in here:
even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone .
Now look at the verses, see whats missing now.
'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. "
Versus:
We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah.
The answer is in here:
even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone .
Now look at the verses, see whats missing now.
panIslamist said:
Now lets look at it again:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone"
There is a missing word, a word the arab pagans and other pagans will never say. Look at the two statement and find the missing word.
panIslamist
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Your argument makes no sense.
Regarding Rule #2
2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.
And those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. [39:3]
and
And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! [10:18]
The mushrikeen already knew that Allah is the ultimate authority, and they were attempting to get closer to Allah by calling out to others.
Their ultimate goal was Allah, but they were committing shirk because they were not calling on Allah directly.
The actions of the Arab Mushrikeen were acts of worship because they called on others in the hopes of getting nearer to Allah or intercession with Allah.
Anyways I have to go, please read the following for a detailed explaination of the Four Rules of Tawheed: http://www.al-ibaanah.com/pdf_files/tawheed/Ex_Qawaaid.pdf
Regarding Rule #2
2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.
And those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. [39:3]
and
And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! [10:18]
The mushrikeen already knew that Allah is the ultimate authority, and they were attempting to get closer to Allah by calling out to others.
Their ultimate goal was Allah, but they were committing shirk because they were not calling on Allah directly.
The actions of the Arab Mushrikeen were acts of worship because they called on others in the hopes of getting nearer to Allah or intercession with Allah.
Anyways I have to go, please read the following for a detailed explaination of the Four Rules of Tawheed: http://www.al-ibaanah.com/pdf_files/tawheed/Ex_Qawaaid.pdf
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The missing word is "alone". That is the word missing in these verses.
Now we look at it again:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ". Now the verses never said alone. This is la Illaha Illa Allah.
Now we look at it again:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ". Now the verses never said alone. This is la Illaha Illa Allah.
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Shirk:
Al-Uzzah rules birth, death, marriage, springs, warfare, raids, grain, the Zodiac, the change of the seasons, the course of heavenly bodies, and Venus as the morning star. The many variant spellings of her name include Al Uzzah, al-Uzza, Al ëUzza, Al Uzza, ëUzza, and Uzza. Her titles include The Great One, The Propitious, and The Venus of Mecca.
Al-Uzzahís symbols include an acacia tree, a cluster of acacia trees, three samura palm trees, and the stone in the Ka'aba at Mecca. Green, her sacred color, was adopted by Islam as its sacred color. The acacia is her sacred tree. Grain and Syrian rue, the harmala plant, are also sacred to Al-Uzzah. Granite and meteorites are her sacred stones. Her sacred animals include the cow, lioness, and snake. In her aspect as Mari (also spelled Meri), she is a sea goddess. Meriís title is The Fish, and dolphins are sacred to her.
Invoke Al-Uzzah for fertility, battle, marriage, riches, astrology, oracles, love spells, seasonal magic, the fertility of crops, killing or taming wild beasts, and guidance in adventures. Invoke her as Mari for sea spells, and to protect seafarers. Al Uzzah received blood offerings in ancient times, sacrifices of humans and animals. She was also honored with visitations, pilgrimages to the places where her trees stood, or where her stone stood with a canopy above it.
Tawheed:
'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything".
So:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".
So this by definition is La Illaha Illa Allah!
Al-Uzzah rules birth, death, marriage, springs, warfare, raids, grain, the Zodiac, the change of the seasons, the course of heavenly bodies, and Venus as the morning star. The many variant spellings of her name include Al Uzzah, al-Uzza, Al ëUzza, Al Uzza, ëUzza, and Uzza. Her titles include The Great One, The Propitious, and The Venus of Mecca.
Al-Uzzahís symbols include an acacia tree, a cluster of acacia trees, three samura palm trees, and the stone in the Ka'aba at Mecca. Green, her sacred color, was adopted by Islam as its sacred color. The acacia is her sacred tree. Grain and Syrian rue, the harmala plant, are also sacred to Al-Uzzah. Granite and meteorites are her sacred stones. Her sacred animals include the cow, lioness, and snake. In her aspect as Mari (also spelled Meri), she is a sea goddess. Meriís title is The Fish, and dolphins are sacred to her.
Invoke Al-Uzzah for fertility, battle, marriage, riches, astrology, oracles, love spells, seasonal magic, the fertility of crops, killing or taming wild beasts, and guidance in adventures. Invoke her as Mari for sea spells, and to protect seafarers. Al Uzzah received blood offerings in ancient times, sacrifices of humans and animals. She was also honored with visitations, pilgrimages to the places where her trees stood, or where her stone stood with a canopy above it.
Tawheed:
'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything".
So:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".
So this by definition is La Illaha Illa Allah!
Z
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Asalamu Alaikum
An interesting discussion here.
So to clarify, the Salafis/Wahabis are not a sect?
I was under the impression that the Salafis/Wahabis don't follow a madhab. They say we shouldn't follow an Imaam blindly. I also understand that they follow their desires like when it comes to a certain issue, they check for which of the 4 schools have the strongest daleel and then make their minds up about the issue. In most cases, they follow their Imaam, i.e their nafs, taking which the lighter opinion of one of the 4 schools. Further, their definition of 'authentic Sunnah' is that which suits their lifestyle as outlined by their 'scholars' such as Ibn Taymiya, al-Albani, Bin Baz, and Uthaymeen.
They also prey on certain people of society such as:
1. Those Muslims who are undereducated in regards of their Deen
2. Those who have just become a Muslim.
3. Those who are young and wish to compromise their Deen for the sake of Western philosophy and "The American Way."
4. Those who seek a reason (actually, an excuse) for rebelling against their parents and community.
If you notice, many young Salafis/Wahabis (those who reverted to become a Salafi/Wahabi) fall under those 4 catergories.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.
An interesting discussion here.
So to clarify, the Salafis/Wahabis are not a sect?
I was under the impression that the Salafis/Wahabis don't follow a madhab. They say we shouldn't follow an Imaam blindly. I also understand that they follow their desires like when it comes to a certain issue, they check for which of the 4 schools have the strongest daleel and then make their minds up about the issue. In most cases, they follow their Imaam, i.e their nafs, taking which the lighter opinion of one of the 4 schools. Further, their definition of 'authentic Sunnah' is that which suits their lifestyle as outlined by their 'scholars' such as Ibn Taymiya, al-Albani, Bin Baz, and Uthaymeen.
They also prey on certain people of society such as:
1. Those Muslims who are undereducated in regards of their Deen
2. Those who have just become a Muslim.
3. Those who are young and wish to compromise their Deen for the sake of Western philosophy and "The American Way."
4. Those who seek a reason (actually, an excuse) for rebelling against their parents and community.
If you notice, many young Salafis/Wahabis (those who reverted to become a Salafi/Wahabi) fall under those 4 catergories.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.
panIslamist
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tru_nigga said:The missing word is "alone". That is the word missing in these verses.
Now we look at it again:
"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ". Now the verses never said alone. This is la Illaha Illa Allah.
The Arabs were not henotheists (because they believed that Allah alone has the power to create, give/take life and provide), but they were STILL MUSHRIKS. They agreed that Allah is the only one who has all these powers and complete ownership of these powers, and that He is the only Rabb.
You have to bring the proof to show that the Arabs thought their deities shared powers with Allah from the Quran and Sunnah.
And if you were to ask them who created them, they would surely say “Allaah" [43:87]
Ask them: 'Who sends down for you your provision from the sky and grows it out of the earth? Who hears your prayer and sees your condition? Who brings the living out of the dead and the dead out of the living? Who directs the course of the world?' They will answer: 'Allaah.' Answer: 'Would you then not fulfill your duty to Him?' [10:32]
Allah says that they believed that ALLAH alone has the power to do all of this, not "Allah and others"
Allah also demands that ALL forms of worship be for Him ALONE.
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" [40:60]
Allah doesn't say "Call on me and my friends", does He?
Also, Shirk DOES NOT HAVE TO BE WHAT THE MUSHRIK ARABS DID.
Riyaa is also a type of SHIRK, which was never done by the Mushriks.
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350z said:
1. SHOW ME ONE person who does not follow his shaykh, whether he is Ask Imam, Sunnipath, Islamonline, or Islamqa.
2. Salafis are not antiMadhabs. They are anti blindly following one man or madhab without understanding why. Most salafis actually follow the Hanbali madhab. A madhab is not a set of opinions of one man anyway.
Read: http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=22
3. The sahabah followed mujtahids adn this is no different with the salafis.
4. Ibn al-Qayyim, rahimahullaah, said about the prohibitted types of taqleed:
"It is of three types:- Firstly: totally turning away from what Allaah has revealed, but rather being satisfied with the taqleed of one’s for-fathers. Secondly: doing taqleed of someone when you do not know whether that person is from those whose saying can be taken. Thirdly: doing taqleed after the proofs have been established and it becomes apparent that the evidence contradicts the view of the one to whom taqleed is done."
5. The people who follow madhabs do not follow every opinion of Abu Haneefa ra. They follow opinions of him, his disciples and others combined. The usool is what they follow. So there is no difference.
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Z
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Asalamu Alaikum
Just read the fatwa bro, and the second paragraph raises an issue.
Thing is, I see a lot of that nowadays [moving from one madhab to another], and yes as silly as it may sound, the people I know who do it say they don't follow a madhab, they're Salafis/Wahabis.
Just read the fatwa bro, and the second paragraph raises an issue.
Thing is, I see a lot of that nowadays [moving from one madhab to another], and yes as silly as it may sound, the people I know who do it say they don't follow a madhab, they're Salafis/Wahabis.
panIslamist
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Tru nigga for me to accept your theory you have to answer two questions?
1. Show me one place in the Quran and Sunnah where the Mushriks claimed that their deities shared powers with Allah.
2. Do you consider directing your form of worship to someone/something other than Allah as Shirk, even if it is powerless?
So even if you could somehow prove to me point 1, you have to prove that 2 is not Shirk.
1. Show me one place in the Quran and Sunnah where the Mushriks claimed that their deities shared powers with Allah.
2. Do you consider directing your form of worship to someone/something other than Allah as Shirk, even if it is powerless?
So even if you could somehow prove to me point 1, you have to prove that 2 is not Shirk.
Ansar Al-'Adl
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The arabs at the time of the Prophet saws were indeed Mushriks even though many of them believed that Allah alone had power over the Universe. The following quote you've provided is something I've seen circulating amongst the ignorant, which has no authentic sources or backing:
This quote is not taken from any authoritatve work, instead it is taken from some fool's homemade website!
http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/whitemagik/gods/al_uzza.html
The Qur'an presents the true picture:
31:32 When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they invoke Allâh, making their invocations for Him ONLY.
Therefore, in times of distress, they too called upon Allah ALONE realizing that with Him were the true powers to save them. I encourage you to read Kash Ash-Shubuhat, because all your arguments are refuted therein in great detail.
350zSalafis are those who follow the early Muslims' understanding of Islam. "Wahhabis" is a derogatory label used for followers of Shaykh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab.350z said:
WHat do you mean by "madhab"? A "madhab" is a set of opinions, interpretations, and rulings of a scholar, that is meant to reflect the Prophet saws's madhab most accurately.
Its not a case of not following a madhab, instead the salafis follow ALL the madhabs. They don't blindly stick to one. By blindly I mean following the opinion of one scholar even when it is proven to be false on a certain issue. Therefore, the salafi follows Imaam Shafi on some points, Imaam Abu Hanifa on others, Imaam Maalik on others, Imaam Hambal on others, and various other scholars like Imaam Tabari, Imaam Thawri, Imaam Layth, Imaam Zayd, Imaam Awza'ee and Imaam Dawud, who all had their own madhabs as well.
The foru madhabs that have survived today have only survived due to intercompetition and "natural selection". Its not because they are divinely ordained.
Please read the following article for more info:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1812
That's not called following one's desires buddy. That's called following the strongest "daleel". If one opinion is stronger than the other, a Muslim is supposed to take the strongest opinion not blindly stick to the weaker opinion!
There's no evidence for these statements and you should be warned about spreading lies and misconceptions. The sunnah is agreed upon by both salafis and blind-followers - it consists of the Prophet's sayings, actions, approvals, and things he abstained from.
It is all false. Do back up your wild assertions with some facts. The true path of Islam is preached to everyone.
Really? Which one do I fall under?
Done.
First of all i did say that the arab pagans did believe that God is to be called upon in times of great peril. Let see what is shirk. Shirk is when u believe that God is either too busy or too burdened to run the affairs of this world. meaning, say you are working in a company. And the CEO is God. You as a humble employee can not approach the CEO for every matter. Yes the CEO is the head and the supreme(Allah) but you do not go to Him for every matter. He has better things to do. So you go to your imediate managers for the routine things, and you go to allat, al uzza and al manat for more serious things . Now if there is fire thats burning the warehouse only then will you call the CEO for help. The arabs believed in the same thing. Only when you are about to be ingulfed in the strorm do you then pray to the Al Mighty, otherwise there are other gods and goddesess to take care of you. This is shirk!
Now never has there been any mushriks in history who would proclaim that God alone controlled the affairs of this world.
Now as for for what has been said concerning that asking any other than God for something is shirk, well there are many hadiths where a person will aproach the prophet and ask him to pray for a certain thing. Is this shirk! Why did the person walk up to the prophet and asked the prophet to pray for something if he can do it himself. This is not shirk! Shirk is when u believe that there are other dieties who can do things for you, due to their divine powers, that in reality only God can do. Like believing al manat is the goddess of fate and fortune. What does that mean, she is the goddess of fate and fortune. It means she can control fate and fortune. Now wait a minute, only God controls that. Well the mushriks did not believe that. They attached partners with God not in their worship BUT IN THEIR BELIEF THAT THESE gods HAD CONTROL over the universe. God alone is not capable, He is either too busy or the universe is too much for Him, He needs help. Or He is too distant. This is shirk!
Now never has there been any mushriks in history who would proclaim that God alone controlled the affairs of this world.
Now as for for what has been said concerning that asking any other than God for something is shirk, well there are many hadiths where a person will aproach the prophet and ask him to pray for a certain thing. Is this shirk! Why did the person walk up to the prophet and asked the prophet to pray for something if he can do it himself. This is not shirk! Shirk is when u believe that there are other dieties who can do things for you, due to their divine powers, that in reality only God can do. Like believing al manat is the goddess of fate and fortune. What does that mean, she is the goddess of fate and fortune. It means she can control fate and fortune. Now wait a minute, only God controls that. Well the mushriks did not believe that. They attached partners with God not in their worship BUT IN THEIR BELIEF THAT THESE gods HAD CONTROL over the universe. God alone is not capable, He is either too busy or the universe is too much for Him, He needs help. Or He is too distant. This is shirk!