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From: Categories Of Tawheed, Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips

The pagan Makkans all knew that Allaah was their creator, sustainer, their Lord and Master yet that knowledge did not make them Muslims according to God. In fact, Allaah said:

"Most of them do not believe in Allaah except while joining partners to Him." Surah Yusuf, 12:106.

Mujaahid's[1] commentary on this verse was as follows: "Their belief in Allaah represented by their statement, 'Allaah created us, provides for us and takes our lives', did not stop them from worshipping other gods along with Allaah."Collected by Ibn Jareer at-Tabaree.

From the previously mentioned verses, it is clear that the Kuffaar (disbelievers) knew of Allaah's sovereignty, dominion and power. In fact, they used to faithfully devote various types of worship to Him like Hajj, charity, animal sacrifices, vows and even prayers in times of dire necessity and calamity. They even used to claim that they were following the religion of Abraham. Because of that claim, Allaah revealed the verse:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor was he a Christian, but (he) was a true Muslim and not among those who joined partners with Allaah." Surah Aal'Imraan, 3:67.

Some pagan Makkans even believed in the Resurrection and the Judgement and others in predestination (Qadar). Ample evidence of their belief can be found in pre-Islamic poetry. For example, the poet Zuhayr was reported to have said:

"It is either delayed, placed in a book and saved for the Day of Judgement or hastened and avenged."
'Antarah was quoted as saying:

"O 'Ebil to where will you run from death, if my Lord in the sky has destined it?"[2]
In spite of the Makkans' confessions of Tawheed and their knowledge of Allaah, Allaah classified them as disbelievers (Kuffaar) and pagans (Mushrikoon) simply because they worshipped other gods along with their worship of Allaah.

The gravest sin is Shirk, the worship of others instead of Allaah or along with Allaah. In Surah al-Faatihah, which every Muslim is required to recite in his or her prayers at least seventeen times daily, verse four reads, "You alone do we worship and from You alone do we seek help". A clear statement that all forms of worship should only be directed to the One who can respond, Allaah. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) confirmed the concept of unity of worship saying, "If you ask in prayer ask only Allaah, and if you seek help, seek it only from Allaah."Reported by Ibn 'Abbaas and collected by at-Tirmidhi. See An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith, (English Trans.), p.68.

And, Allaah, Most Great and Glorious, said:

'Do not worship besides Allaah that which can not help or harm you."Surah al-Anbiyaa, 21:66.

THIS REFUTES YOUR THEORY THAT THE POWERLESS CAN BE INVOKED

"Those on whom you call besides Allaah are only slaves like yourselves."Surah al-A'raaf, 7:194.

If someone prays to the Prophet (saws), to so-called saints, Jinns or angels asking for help or asking them to request help from Allaah for them, they have also committed Shirk. The concept of "Ghaus-i-Azam" (al-Ghawth al-A'dHam), a title given by the ignorant to 'Abdul-Qaadir al-Jeelaanee, is also an expression of Shirk in this form of Tawheed. The title literally means "the greatest source of rescue; the one most able to save someone from danger" and such a description only belongs to Allaah. When misfortune occurs, some people call on 'Abdul-Qaadir by this title seeking his aid and protection even though Allaah has already said:

"If Allaah allows harm to befall you none can. remove it except Him." Surah al-An'aam, 6:17.

According to the Qur'aan, when the Makkans were questioned about directing their prayers to their idols, they answered,

"We only worship them so that they may bring us closer to Allaah." Surah az-Zumar, 39:3.

The idols were only used as intermediaries yet Allaah called them pagans for their practice. Those among Muslims who insist on praying to other than Allaah would do well to reflect on this fact.

READ THAT VERSE ABOVE AGAIN AND AGAIN. The MUSHRIKS DO NOT WORSHIP OTHERS BECAUSE THEY THINK THE OTHERS CAN HELP THEM. THEY WORSHIP THEM BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET CLOSER TO ALLAH. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE WHO INVOKE HUMANS DO.

[1] Mujaahid ibn Jubayr al-Makkee (642-722) was Ibn 'Abbaas' most outstanding student.

[2] Quoted in Sulaymaan ibn 'Abdul-Wahhaab's Tayseer al-'Azeez al-Hameed, (Beirut: al-Maktab al-Islaamee, 2nd., 1970), p.34.

So the points derived from this article are three:
1. Do not worship besides Allaah that which can not help or harm you. This includes anyone who you think has power and without (powerless).
2. If you worship others instead of Allaah or along with Allaah, then this is SHIRK.
3. The Mushriks only worshiped others besides Allah so that they may bring themselves closer to Allaah.


Now if you really want to answer my argument Show me from the Quran and SUnnah where this is different.
 
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Akhee, i presented my case. Unless you have evidence regarding what the arab pagans believed i do not wish to continue. I deal with facts.
 
:sl: 350z
350z said:
You seem to have taken it pretty personal brother, I didn't mean no harm.

Anyway, thanks for correcting the understanding I had about Salafis/Wahabis.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. Please forgive me if I was harsh. I just got a little irritated because you made statements instead of questions, but don't worry, no harm done, insha'Allah.

:sl: Tru nigga
tru_nigga said:
Let see what is shirk.
I agree this is the core of the issue.
Shirk is when u believe that God is either too busy or too burdened to run the affairs of this world.
This is not true at all. As I suspected, an incorrect understanding of shirk was the root of the argument. What you have mentioned is a type of Shirk known as Shirk in Asmaa was-Sifaat, specifically shirk by denial of one of Allah's attributes - namely that He is omnipotent and in full control.

Briefly, Here are the categories of Shirk in relation to the Categories of Tawheed:

1. Shirk in Rububiyyah - it may occur in two ways...
A - Shirk by Denial - This can consist of any of the following forms of Shirk:
i) Denying that creation has a Creator. This is the belief was the belief of Pharoah who tought himself to eb the god of his people, alone. This is also an example of Atheism.

ii) Denying the attributes of Allah's Lordship (rububiyyah),i.e. denying the extent and strength of His power and His role in the universe. An example is Deism.

iii) Denying His rights that He is entitled to by perfection of His nature. Denying His seperate and supreme existence from creation. This is an example of Patheism.​

B - Shirk by Affirmation - This occurs when one affirms the powers of Lordship to those other than Allah, like believing that other "gods", Prophets, saints, idols, angels, etc. have power over certain aspects of Creation. Henotheism is related to this type of Shirk.​
2. Shirk in Uluhiyyah - This involves directing any acts of worship to those other than Allah. Allah SWT informs us to pray to Him with Ikhlaas, or sincerity, singling Him out in worship. Examples of this type of Shirk are numerous - it includes Trinitarian Christianity, which directs most worship to Jesus while still affirming the existence of God 'the father'. It includes many types of polytheism, it includes the veneration of Saints by extreme Sufis, the veneration of statues by Buddhists, and it includes the worship of the Jaahiliyyah arabs. These groups never hardly worship Allah, and constantly direct their worship elsewhere.

3. Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat - Asmaa was Sifaat are the beautiful names and attributes of Allah. Shirk in this category occurs in the following ways:
A - Shirk by comparing Allah to creation - this occurs when one believes that Allah has attributes or qualities normally associated with creation, like He gets tired, or hungry or something else that is not befitting of Allah.

B - Shirk by comparing creation to Allah - this occurs when one gives any part of creation an attribute that belongs to Allah. For example, claiming that a certain person is all-knowing or all-seeing is this type of Shirk. Or if someone claims that they resemble Allah (Naoodhobillah).​

I hope that there will be no more confusion on this issue now, insha'Allah. There are other ways of catergorising the types of Shirk, but I have chosen the most comprehensive and easiest to understand system. The categories in this system are mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an:

Shirk in Rububiyyah
34:22 Say: "Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy, besides Allah. They have no power,- not the weight of an atom,- in the heavens or on earth: No (sort of) share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper to Allah.

In this verse, Shirk Ar-Rububiyyah is mentioned since Allah negates them having any control over the universe.

Shirk in Uluhiyyah
18:110 So whoever is hopeful for the meeting of his Lord - let him do righteous deeds, and not associate (yushrik) anyone in the worship of his Lord

In this verse, Allah swt warns human beings about directing acts of worship to those other than Allah swt.

Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat
18:26 And He does not share (yushrik) in His legislation with anyone.

112:4 And there is none like unto Him


Here Allah swt mentions attributes that are unique to Him, thus negating any Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat. The Creator is unlike the creation.,

Now we shoudl be able to understand the remaining discussion on Shirk better...

meaning, say you are working in a company. And the CEO is God. You as a humble employee can not approach the CEO for every matter. Yes the CEO is the head and the supreme(Allah) but you do not go to Him for every matter. He has better things to do.
By stating that He has better things to do, you deny His attribute of All-Seeing and All-Knowing, and answering every sincere Dua. This is Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat.

So you go to your imediate managers for the routine things, and you go to allat, al uzza and al manat for more serious things .
By going to these others you commit several types of Shirk. First, you commit Shirk in Uluhiyyah by directing acts of worship to other than Allah. Secondly, you commit Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat by attributing Allah's powers to creation. Third, if you believe that these intermediaries possess real power and lordship, then you commit Shirk in Rububiyyah as well.

Now if there is fire thats burning the warehouse only then will you call the CEO for help. The arabs believed in the same thing.
The arabs of Jaahiliyyah certainly committed Shirk in Uluhiyyah and Asmaa was Sifaat, but many of them did not extend to the level of Shirk in Rubuiyyah as you are trying to imply. They realized that their other deities had no real power and that is why they did not call out to them in times of distress.

But the shirk of the modern mushrikeen is WORSE than that of the jaahiliyyah arabs for the following reason:

The modern Mushrikeen call upon other than Allah swt in both times of ease AND in times of distress, while the jaahiliyyah arbas only called upon other than Allah in times of ease. I can give you many examples of this. One of the followers of the Rifa'i tariqah, Muhammad Abi Al-Huda Afandi wrote:
Any person who is in a difficult situation and needs a desire fulfilled, or finds a goal hard to achieve, or has a loan (that he must repay), or is in prison or has been wronged by a tyrant, then let him...turn himself, whilst standing, to the east, so that he faces Basrah (in Iraq), towards the garden of Umm Ma'bad, which is the final resting place of the Great Saviour, of the descendants of Hasan (grandson of the Prophet saws), my master, Al-Sayyid Ahmad Rifa'i (the founder of the Rifa'i Tariqah). Let him then call out with humiliation and determination: 'O mediator of those who seek! O Kabah of those who do Tawaf! O Saviour of all Creation!...O Controller of matters in life and Death!...Save me!
This is clear Shirk even in times of distress, while the Arabs only did this in times of ease and in times of distress they would recognize Allah swt as the most powerful.

There are millions of examples if you read books of the sufis like Jami Karamat Al-Awliyah compiled by Yusuf An-Nabhani.

Now never has there been any mushriks in history who would proclaim that God alone controlled the affairs of this world.
In fact there are. This is the belief of the Christians, the Zoroastrians and the Hindus and even the Jaahiliyah arabs - all are still Mushriks. This is in fact the original belief of many mythologies. For example, in Aztec mythology it was Tloquenahuaque who was the supreme controller of the universe, but they worshipped many other gods as well. For the Mayas it was Hunab-ku.

You seem to think that Shirk Ar-Rububiyyah is the only type of Shirk, yet as I have demonstrated before, this is false.

Now as for for what has been said concerning that asking any other than God for something is shirk, well there are many hadiths where a person will aproach the prophet and ask him to pray for a certain thing.
First produce the hadith.

Second, asking another living person to make Dua for you is not shirk. Making Dua to that person is.

Shirk is when u believe that there are other dieties who can do things for you, due to their divine powers, that in reality only God can do.
You have a very limited understanding of Shirk. May I ask how in-depth your studies are on this issue? Please read the categories of shirk already posted.

It should all be crystal clear, now that we have defined shirk.

:w:
 
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
 
tru_nigga said:
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.

39 3. Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allâh only. And those who take Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh." Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever.

See tafseer here: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=39&tid=44940

Find me one tafseer that shows that this ayah is not revealed regarding the idolators.
 
Salaam tru_nigga

I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
With all due respect, why dont you go and do some of your own research? Since everyone elses' efforts are going to scrutinised by your ever true retorts, it may benefit you to learn for yourself for once.

Regards
 
:sl:
tru_nigga said:
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was.
First of all, there was clear signs that you did not understand shirk, so I've cleared up that confusion. Without understanding shirk you cannot tell what is shirk and what isn't.

Second, I provided a brief summary of the pre-islamic arab aqeedah, although insha'Allah I will provide you the details you want.

I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted,
If I have misinterpreted any verses I challenge you to expose the misinterpretation.

i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
Can you show me what I cut and pasted? I typed up that information myself.

Since you have asked about the beliefs of the pre-islamic arabs, I will respond in this thread:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=3713

:w:
 
:sl:

I think its fair to say that the argumetn from a Islamic perspective is clear and there is no more room for arguement. I suggest this thread be closed down unless the "falsehood" is exposed.
 

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