Salvation in islam

Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!

So I believe...
 
Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!

So I believe...

where on earth did you get this?
 
Salam Aleykum.I know that Saudi Arabia is a country,I mean those wah-habi scholars of Saudi arabia and the others no matter which country they live in.They call muslims kaafir who miss one of the five pillars,as far as I know..And we know that calling a muslim kafir makes the accuser a kafir!!!

:sl:

First of all, they are not wah-habis.

Secondly, if a person is committing an act of kufr, then they may be a kafir! Just because they call themselves a Muslim doesn't mean they are one. The point you raise about calling a Muslim a kafir makes you a kafir only applies in the case there the accusation is unjustified.

It is also uncommon as far as I know for scholars to include all the five pillars, generally they will include the shahadah, prayer and zakat only.

There are acts that make a Muslim a disbeliever, even if the person says the shahadah. For example, if a person calls himself a Muslim but says that the Quran is not from Allah. Is that person still a Muslim? Or what about the person who says that there is no Day of Judgement, heaven or hell? Is that person a Muslim? Of course not!

An even more radical example, is if the person says the shahadah but worships an idol as well. For sure this person is not a Muslim!

In the same way, according to some scholars, a person who does not pray or pay zakat is not a Muslim either, and they did not make this up themselves either, they came to this conclusion based on the Quran and hadiths.

And that is not a wah-habi thing!


"and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars does not contradict these hadiths at all" Sorry but I couldn't understand this...

Sorry, I meant to say:

"and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars makes a person a kafir does not contradict these hadiths at all"

If you can't understand how that is true, think about the points I mentioned above. A Muslim who does not believe the Quran is from Allah, or that there is Heaven and hell, or even that Jesus or Abraham or Moses were Prophets. Are these people Muslims? No they aren't!* (And if I remember correctly there is consensus of the scholars on this point, therefore you can't say it is a wah-habi thing).

So based on that, I hope you can see how these hadith do not contradict the idea that leaving one of the five pillars may be an act of disbelief.

But they have different meanings..

There is no different meaning, akhi. The people who call themselves salafis are called wah-habis by others. Generally there is no group that calls themselves wah-habis!

*the exception could be if they were ignorant, but it depends on other factors too whether that exception is valid for a person.
 
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Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!

:sl:

Do you have a source for where you found this information. Because as far as I know this belief is totally wrong.

The only way that I know of that a non-Muslim can enter paradise is if they died upon disbelief without first know what Islam is or understand the message. In their case they may enter paradise or they may not, it is up to Allah to decided their case.
 
:salamext:

Yes, eventual...

Yes, because not every Muslim deserves Jannah to begin with. Some may even murder/rape/steal and not repent, and this is especially when they are deserving of hell to be purified first before being able to enter Jannah.

Wassalam.
 
So what these two nice hadiths seem to intend, is that anyone muslim can go to heaven, even if they do sin and such.
To get true concept/spirit of a saying of Prophet we gotta look at ALL ahadees mentioning a particular incident, coz some narrators of ahadees may mave missed some point that prophet said & other narrator gives true & more complete picture.


So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)



So my question is: Is this an islamic belief, that as long as you have iman in Allah you will eventually reach jannah? Or do some muslims go to eternal hell as well?
God knows best, but what i understand, many muslms who seek intercession from dead(Q:35:22) like at graves of Sufis/pious & like some shias say Ali(ra) was god & pray to him for help & some(like Tahir-ul-Qadri) also permit seeking intercession to Prophet Muhammad(saww) while he's dead, all r commiting shirk.


[Quran:10:18] They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

[32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?


[35:22] Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. God can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.



Prophet Muhammad(saww) was able to intercede ONLY when he was alive in front of ppl asking him to pray on their behalf like praying for rain etc.

& he'll intercede ONLY when he'll be alive again in hereafter & we'll also be alive & ppl would ask him to intercede b/w them & GOD. All ahadees regarding intercession by Prophet r about him interceding in hereafter when all would be ressurected & Prophet would be living & hearing.


I have always thought that those who commit zina, and drink, and all other haram things, and did it KNOWING that they were sinning, and missing their prayers, would be in eternal hell in islam. But this hadith(to me at least, unless I have it wrong) seems to say that anyone with iman can go to jannah.

such sinner's will go to hell 1st & then after due punishment will be taken out of hell, provided they did NOT make partners with God Almighty in worshipping & in prayers.(Prayed to GOD directly)
 
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anyone agreeing or disagreeing!!!
(in other words; "BUMP") :D
 
So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)

i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.
 
i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.
I was not sure myself, still trying to figure out.
This aayah & following 2 Ahadees support my point:-
[Q:2:62]Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. ..........” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 579)

......“Nobody says: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’ and then later on he dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise.........This is at the time of death or before it if one repents and regrets and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)
 
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To get true concept/spirit of a saying of Prophet we gotta look at ALL ahadees mentioning a particular incident, coz some narrators of ahadees may mave missed some point that prophet said & other narrator gives true & more complete picture.


So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)
Well, I have to disagree. The Qu'ran says that any religion other than Islam would not be accepted in Al Dunya!!

Of course, some dispute what "Islam" is.. Some say it is just submission to one almighty God. However, should not the author of the Qu'ran used the word "Haniah" for that or something? I mean, looking into context, Islam is the religion that follows Allah and Allah's Apostle.(Which, according to Muslims, is Muhammad.) But Christians do not do that! Nor do Jews, or any other non Muslims.

God knows best, but what i understand, many muslms who seek intercession from dead(Q:35:22) like at graves of Sufis/pious & like some shias say Ali(ra) was god & pray to him for help & some(like Tahir-ul-Qadri) also permit seeking intercession to Prophet Muhammad(saww) while he's dead, all r commiting shirk.
That is probably true. After all, they are committing Bid'dah!

Now you mentioned Tahir Ul Qadri.. Which is interesting. Because in July on CF, youu posted this picture of "Muhammad's name written in the sky" and you posted and article about 400,000 people attending some conference, and ul qadri was mentioning the name of Muhammad. He then said that he wish he had a marker board to write the name so all could say. And I guess "miraculously" the name appeared in the sky!

You were heavily promoting that as I remember. Now you are saying that he commits shirk though! At a personal level, I like ul qadri, because he is pretty moderate and liberal. But I can not even deny that some of his beliefs are very un islamic!

[Quran:10:18] They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

[32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?


[35:22] Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. God can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.



Prophet Muhammad(saww) was able to intercede ONLY when he was alive in front of ppl asking him to pray on their behalf like praying for rain etc.

& he'll intercede ONLY when he'll be alive again in hereafter & we'll also be alive & ppl would ask him to intercede b/w them & GOD. All ahadees regarding intercession by Prophet r about him interceding in hereafter when all would be ressurected & Prophet would be living & hearing.
Interesting!


such sinner's will go to hell 1st & then after due punishment will be taken out of hell, provided they did NOT make partners with God Almighty in worshipping & in prayers.(Prayed to GOD directly)
[/quote]
Cool! It sort of reminds me of the Catholic view! Basically, you are bad, you get punished, but only for a period of time!(If you are a Catholic obviously. Non believers get it different according to Church!)
 
i wonder what if a person never belonged to any religion (= not "people of the book") but believed in the oneness of God.
 
According to the Qu'ran, Sunnah, and early scholars(as well as most now), if they denied Islam, they would be in hell, since they refused to accept the message!(Unless they never heard of it, then it is of no fault to them.)
 
i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.

Hello,

Yes, such a person will go to hell, but will eventually go to paradise if he truly believed in the One True God (that Jews/Christians/Muslims believe in) and does no shirk. Allah can forgive any sin except shirk, and even then shirk is only unforgivable in the hereafter, whereas if we was to do shirk in this life and repent, we will be forgiven by the Mercy of Allah inshaAllah.

And Allah knows best.

I thought I'll also post up the tafsir for the verse brother sur posted (from Tafsir Ibn Kathir):

"(2:62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)


Faith and doing Righteous Deeds equals Salvation in all Times
After Allah described the condition - and punishment - of those who defy His commands, fall into His prohibitions and transgress set limits by committing prohibited acts, He stated that the earlier nations who were righteous and obedient received the rewards for their good deeds. This shall be the case, until the Day of Judgment. Therefore, whoever follows the unlettered Messenger and Prophet shall acquire eternal happiness and shall neither fear from what will happen in the future nor become sad for what has been lost in the past. Similarly, Allah said,

﴿أَلا إِنَّ أَوْلِيَآءَ اللَّهِ لاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ ﴾

(No doubt! Verily, the Awliya' of Allah, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve) (10:62).

The angels will proclaim to the dying believers, as mentioned,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَـمُواْ تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ أَلاَّ تَخَافُواْ وَلاَ تَحْزَنُواْ وَأَبْشِرُواْ بِالْجَنَّةِ الَّتِى كُنتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ ﴾ (Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allah (alone),'' and then they stand firm, on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!''). (41:30)



The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer
`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.



Why the Jews were called `Yahud
The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa, who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said, ﴿إِنَّا هُدْنَـآ إِلَيْكَ﴾




Why the christians were called nasara


﴿مَنْ أَنصَارِى إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصَارُ اللَّهِ﴾

("Who will be my helpers in Allah's cause'' Al-Hawariyyun said: "We are the helpers of Allah.'') (61:14)

It was said that they were called `Nasara', because they inhabited a land called An-Nasirah (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Jurayj and Ibn `Abbas were reported to have said, Allah knows best. Nasara is certainly plural for Nasran. When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.



The Sabi'un or Sabians
There is a difference of opinion over the identity of the Sabians. Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that Layth bin Abu Sulaym said that Mujahid said that, "The Sabians are between the Majus, the Jews and the Christians. They do not have a specific religion.'' Similar is reported from Ibn Abi Najih. Similar statements were attributed to `Ata' and Sa`id bin Jubayr. They (others) say that the Sabians are a sect among the People of the Book who used to read the Zabur (Psalms), others say that they are a people who worshipped the angels or the stars. It appears that the closest opinion to the truth, and Allah knows best, is Mujahid's statement and those who agree with him like Wahb bin Munabbih, that the Sabians are neither Jews nor Christians nor Majus nor polytheists. Rather, they did not have a specific religion that they followed and enforced, because they remained living according to their Fitrah (instinctual nature). This is why the idolators used to call whoever embraced Islam a `Sabi', meaning, that he abandoned all religions that existed on the earth. Some scholars stated that the Sabians are those who never received a message by any Prophet. And Allah knows best."


Peace out.
 
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[Q:2:62]Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

:sl:

The verse does not support the argument that religions other than Islam will be accepted...

Z-blade posted the tafsir of the verse, and I just want to highlight the essential part:

The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

In other words: the verse only counts to those living before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh came with his message.
 
this has been an interesting discussion, though i must say what malaikah posted is in line with everything i've read until this thread and that is:
(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.
 
Now you mentioned Tahir Ul Qadri.. Which is interesting. Because in July on CF, youu posted this picture of "Muhammad's name written in the sky" and you posted and article about 400,000 people attending some conference, and ul qadri was mentioning the name of Muhammad. He then said that he wish he had a marker board to write the name so all could say. And I guess "miraculously" the name appeared in the sky!

You were heavily promoting that as I remember. Now you are saying that he commits shirk though! At a personal level, I like ul qadri, because he is pretty moderate and liberal. But I can not even deny that some of his beliefs are very un islamic!
No Francais, u r forgetting.
I didn't posted any pics with Muhammad written. & i never supported Tahir-ul-Qadri. That must be some one else.

But i remember i posted a link to wikipedia's article just for info on Tahir-ul-Qadri.
 
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i wonder what if a person never belonged to any religion (= not "people of the book") but believed in the oneness of God.

I think, if they were so coz of lack of knowledge, they will be judged on what ever deeds they do, like their behviour to parents, spouse, children, society etc.
 

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