Saudis launch Islamic unity drive

  • Thread starter Thread starter Uthman
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 68
  • Views Views 9K
well with the religious tolerance islam must still be adhered to

One of Muhammed :arabic5: last orders were to expel other religions from Arabia.
I've read somewhere that that was just refering to the Hejaz region, don't know where though.

Religious tolerance and no compulsion is religion does not and should not mean accepting other religions to be right.
Nobody said it does, that's a strawman argument. Tolerance and 'no compulsion in religion' means letting people follow their own religion, not you following theirs.

First and foremost we are muslims, and religious tolerance does not mean we help other religions in their kufr by building them places of worship
What about how Umar refused to pray in the Christian Church in Jerusalem so that future Muslims didn't turn it into a Mosque?

Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection.
Source
:w:
 
I've read somewhere that that was just refering to the Hejaz region, don't know where though.

Yeh, which makes up a large bulk of the Arabian peninsula... so I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about? :?
 
Well in that case in Panjab only Sikhism should be allowed, as it's the Sikhs holy cities!

btw - SA may be holy, but the Sheikhs re servants of the USA You need to deal with them first!

those sheikhs are the biggest suckups in the world!
 
:sl:

Astagfirullah fear Allah before making such claims, if what you are saying is not true, it is slander. (which is a serious sin).
 
well with the religious tolerance islam must still be adhered to

One of Muhammed :arabic5: last orders were to expel other religions from Arabia.
Religious tolerance and no compulsion is religion does not and should not mean accepting other religions to be right.
First and foremost we are muslims, and religious tolerance does not mean we help other religions in their kufr by building them places of worship.

"Sahih Bukhari Volume 4 : Book 52 : Hadith 288 :

Narrated by Said bin Jubair:

Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, "Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them." I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, 'It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yama-ma and Yemen." Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.")

edit- so it's not the entire peninsula as one may think... that would not only include saudi, but also ALL the GCC countries and bilad al sham, which are also usually considered part of the peninsula.
 
Last edited:
Nobody said it does, that's a strawman argument. Tolerance and 'no compulsion in religion' means letting people follow their own religion, not you following theirs.
its not about a muslim following a non muslim religion its about a muslim supporting non muslims in practising their religion..by building them places of worship etc.

What about how Umar refused to pray in the Christian Church in Jerusalem so that future Muslims didn't turn it into a Mosque?


Source
:w:

nowhere does it say muslims should persecute the other religions under islamic law :? Umar radhiallahu anhu showed islamic tolerance, he allowed them to pray in their religious place, giving religious freedom.
He did not construct churches and synagogues for jews and christians though...

Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression

5:2
 
sorry i meant your second sentence about scholars ...
:sl:
Shiekh doesn't always mean scholar, it can just mean 'leader' or 'wise old man'.

Not saying I support the Saudi Scholars either, but just clearing up something...
:w:
 
:sl:
its not about a muslim following a non muslim religion its about a muslim supporting non muslims in practising their religion..by building them places of worship etc.
Its not a question of the Saudis not helping them build places of worship, but not letting them. They refuse to allow non-Muslims (people of the Book like Christians and Jews) to practice their religion. That's more than just not helping, that's actively persecuting.


nowhere does it say muslims should persecute the other religions under islamic law :? Umar radhiallahu anhu showed islamic tolerance, he allowed them to pray in their religious place, giving religious freedom.
Maybe the Saudis should show tolerance then?

He did not construct churches and synagogues for jews and christians though...
Jerusalem was already filled with Churches, and refusing to pray in the Church shows that he wanted it to exist...

Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression

5:2
Isn't showing kindness piety? And is it not true that if Muslims are tolerant to non-Muslims, they will be more likely to convert to Islam?


And anyway, the Saudi persecution extends beyond Churches, it extends to religious symbols, citizenship, holy books, the list goes on. And don't forget sectarian persecution of other Muslims. And racial discrimination. And their complete disregard to Islamic history by demolishing monuments such as an 18th century Ottoman fort. There is no point listing anything else about them, the post would be too long for anybody to bother reading it...
:w:
 
So makkah and median do not have any non muslims there at the moment.
Al arj is a tiny little area where no one ever goes anyway:
MAP5.GIF

Tihama is the hottest place in the world (according to wiki, lol), and it is a small part of this province, the bright green one:
Saudi_Arabia__Jizan_province_locator-1.png

I can't find anything about yamama.
And yemen has many jews but no pagans.

So besides those tiny areas mentioned, the rest of Saudi is fair game for non muslims.
 
Its not a question of the Saudis not helping them build places of worship, but not letting them. They refuse to allow non-Muslims (people of the Book like Christians and Jews) to practice their religion. That's more than just not helping, that's actively persecuting.

well hope this answers that:
The church is a building in which the Christians practice their rituals, which include kufr, belief in trinity and worshipping someone other than Allaah.

Based on this, building churches or collecting donations to build them, renovate them and support them, is an serious evil action, because it involves helping to spread kufr and approving of it.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

Whoever believes that churches are houses of God, or that He is worshipped in them, or that what the Jews and Christians do is worship of Allaah and obedience to Him and His Messenger, or that He likes that or is pleased with it, is a kaafir, because his beliefs imply that their religion is valid, and that is kufr. If he helps them to open churches and establish their religion, and believes that this is an act of worship or obedience, then he is a kaafir, because this belief implies that their religion is valid.

Elsewhere he said:

Whoever believes that visiting the churches of the ahl al-dhimmah is a way to draw closer to Allaah is an apostate. If he is unaware that this is haraam, he must be told, and if he persists in that he becomes an apostate, because he has implicitly denied the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Truly, the religion with Allaah is Islam”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:19]

End quote from Mataalib Ooli al-Nuha, 6/281.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (14/482):

It is not permissible for a Muslim who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to build a church or a place of worship that is not based on Islam with which Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because that is one of the greatest means of helping in kufr and making its symbols manifest, and Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2]

You have to remind him of Allaah and advise him to repent to Allaah, and to give up the work he is doing lest he fall into kufr and apostasy, and his good deeds come to nothing without him realizing.

Based on this, there is the fear that something worse will happen to your friend than his fasting not being accepted, namely kufr. We ask Allaah to guide him and to help him to do all that is good.
islam q&a


The saudis havent banned non muslims from entering the country, but so far they have and rightly so, banned them building places of worship.


Maybe the Saudis should show tolerance then
show tolerance by putting up churches next to masjids? You have to remember, Arabia is the land of tawheed. Tawheed and kufr do not and cannot go together.

Jerusalem was already filled with Churches, and refusing to pray in the Church shows that he wanted it to exist...
it showed religious tolerance, it didnt show that Umar radhiallahu anhu was for building up churches all over the place.

Isn't showing kindness piety? And is it not true that if Muslims are tolerant to non-Muslims, they will be more likely to convert to Islam?
yes showing kindness is piety- thats the tolerance part.

why dont we go the whole hog and allow these churches to have statues? and pagans to build idols :? why stop at just buildings of worship? should we tolerate them building all that too as part of their worship?


And anyway, the Saudi persecution extends beyond Churches, it extends to religious symbols, citizenship, holy books, the list goes on.
And don't forget sectarian persecution of other Muslims. And racial discrimination.
its unfair to paint a whole nation with this..


And their complete disregard to Islamic history by demolishing monuments such as an 18th century Ottoman fort. There is no point listing anything else about them, the post would be too long for anybody to bother reading it...
they took down shrines and tombs over graves something clearly forbidden by Muhammed :arabic5: what is wrong with that?
Did Muhammed :arabic5: completely disregard history by knocking down idols and things worshipped?
They followed the orders of Muhammed :arabic5: can you blame them for that?
so what if it was history, it was something warned against!
 
Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

"Islam establishes a relationship with the people of different faiths on the basis of tolerance, justice, benevolence, and mercy. The basis of this relationship is Allah’s saying in the Qur’an: [Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8- 9)

According to the Qur’an, Muslims are required to deal with all people kindly and justly as long as they do not oppose or oppress Muslims or place obstacles in the way of spreading Islam.

Of non-Muslims, Islam gives special consideration for the People of the Book, that is, Jews and Christians, whether they reside in a Muslim society or not.

Being a divine religion revealed to guide all mankind, Islam tackles all aspects of man's life, regardless of whether he believes in it or not. That is why we see it granting many rights and privileges to non-Muslim citizens of the Islamic state. Muslims are ordered to show full consideration to this injunction and give due respect to non-Muslims' places of worship, which are part and parcel of their property enjoying full protection in Islam.

Protection of property:

The Islamic government is bound to protect the properties of non-Muslims. In his book Al-Kharaj, Abu Yusuf sheds light on the Prophet’s contract with the people of Najran: “Najran and its neighboring area are in the security of Allah, the Almighty, and His Messenger. The property, religions and churches of the inhabitants, as well as properties, whether much or little, are under the protection of the Prophet.”

`Umar ibn Al-Khattab, in his letter to Abu `Ubaydah ibn Al-Jarrah (may Allah be pleased with them both) wrote: “Prevent Muslims from wronging or causing harm to them (non-Muslims) or taking their property illegally.”

Freedom of worship:

This means the freedom to practice any religion or ideology and not to be forced to adopt a certain faith or compelled to convert to Islam. This is based on the verse:

[Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Commenting on the verse, the famous exegete Ibn Katheer states: “Don’t force anyone to embrace Islam as it is clear and self-evident in its proofs and realities and does not need to exert force to be accepted.”

Islam protects the places of worship of non-Muslims, and allows them to observe their religious ceremonies. Allah says:

[To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).] (Al-Hajj 22: 39-40)

In the reign of `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the religious freedom of the citizens of Ilya (Jerusalem) and the sanctity of their synagogues and places of worship were confirmed: “This is the protection which the slave-servant of Allah, `Umar, the Commander of the Believers, extends to the people of Ilya: The safeguarding of their lives, properties, churches, crosses, and of their entire community. Their churches cannot be occupied, demolished, or damaged, nor are their crosses or anything belonging to them to be touched. They will never be forced to abandon their religion, nor will they be oppressed. None of the Jews will live with them in Ilya….” (At-Tabari, Tarikh, Vol III, p. 609, ed. Dar Al-Ma`arif, Egypt.)

Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed, in his covenant with the People of `Anat, wrote: “They are allowed to ring the bells at any time of the day or night, except in the time of the Islamic prayer times. They are allowed to bear their crosses in their festivals.” (Abu Yusuf, Al-Kharaj, p. 146)

Muslims not only allowed non-Muslims to enjoy the freedom of their faith, but also let them follow their way even though some of their practices might conflict with the religion of the majority. Actually, this is the highest degree of tolerance. Muslims tolerated the religious practices of their minorities by not prohibiting even those practices which were contrary to the state ideology.

History bears witness to the fact that Muslims accepted and applied the Islamic laws to an extent that has no parallel in the history of mankind. The fair and tolerant approach they show to other faiths are no secret.

Asserting the tolerance of Muslims, Tritton says:

“Muslim rulers frequently went beyond what was required of them in their relations with non-Muslims. The best example of this is the presence of churches and other (non-Muslim) places of worship in purely Arab (Muslim) cities. Government departments always had Christians and Jewish officials who were sometimes given very sensitive and influential posts. Some non-Muslims thus acquired great wealth. In addition, Muslims were accustomed to sharing with Christian their festivals.” (Khartubali, Hasan Ali, Islam and Ahl Adh-Dhimmah, p. 256)"

source

another link
 
"Their churches cannot be occupied, demolished, or damaged, nor are their crosses or anything belonging to them to be touched"

By not demolishing their churches was the umar then aiding in kufr? (of course not astaghfirullah)
 
well hope this answers that:
I don't accept anything Islamqa says unless another more trustworthy source says it as well. Mainly its sectarian reasons, which I won't go into, but there is also the 'be glad of the Holocaust' thing that they said.

The saudis havent banned non muslims from entering the country, but so far they have and rightly so, banned them building places of worship.
As well as any other aspect of their religion that can be seen in public...

show tolerance by putting up churches next to masjids? You have to remember, Arabia is the land of tawheed. Tawheed and kufr do not and cannot go together.
Who says 'Churches next to Masjids'? And as Arabia, didn't Crayon just prove that the explulsion was referring to the Hijaz only?

it showed religious tolerance, it didnt show that Umar radhiallahu anhu was for building up churches all over the place.
Jerusalem was already full of Churches, he didn't need to build more. And I'm sure that the Christians would have just built one themselves without Umar's help if they wanted.

yes showing kindness is piety- thats the tolerance part.

why dont we go the whole hog and allow these churches to have statues? and pagans to build idols :? why stop at just buildings of worship? should we tolerate them building all that too as part of their worship?
Christians are people of the Book, they are allowed to practice their religion as long as they don't rebel, remember? As far as I know, idolatry doesn't come under the same protections. Even in the UK Satanist cults are not allowed to run around unwatched.


its unfair to paint a whole nation with this..
I'm not painting the whole nation like this. Crayon is a Saudi and she's perfectly reasonable. But I am painting the whole government like this.


they took down shrines and tombs over graves something clearly forbidden by Muhammed :arabic5: what is wrong with that?
Did Muhammed :arabic5: completely disregard history by knocking down idols and things worshipped?
They followed the orders of Muhammed :arabic5: can you blame them for that?
so what if it was history, it was something warned against!
1. Not everybody (infact almost nobody, for that matter) thinks Mazzars are Shirk. But that is a sectarian discussion which is banned on the forum, as well as by the 'do not debate with the Innovators' prohibiton.

2. More to the point, an Ottoman fort is not a grave, or a shrine, or an idol! Its a historic site that should be protected from damage and preserved for the future, not blown up and turned into a housing block! If that was done in any other developed country the people who demolished it would be thrown into prison for breaking conservation laws.
:w:
 
"Crayon is a Saudi and she's perfectly reasonable"
:eek:
........I'm actually Syrian, I just happen to live in Saudi...:omg:

"it showed religious tolerance, it didnt show that Umar radhiallahu anhu was for building up churches all over the place."
But by your reasoning, allowing them to worship in a country that umar was in charge of would be allowing shirk to take place, right? There's no difference as to whether the church was already there or whether it was built, the same act is being done, giving Allah partners, calling Jesus the son of God, etc.
 
For me personally it is just fine that the churches can not be built in Saudi Arabia, I can understand that SA is one big Vatican where are also no mosques. These christians who come to SA must be aware that they go there to work and they wont get citizenship, so they cant except to stay there for longer time. They just do their job and go back, I guess. The same way europeans should do with muslim immigrants coming here since 60's.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top