Searching for Truth

[ponderer331]

This is just the first example I could find. There are many others but please don't make me do your leg work. This is your search...

What makes sense to me wont necessarily make sense to you

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bUozJS-alvE

I wasn't asking you to do my work for me. I was asking you to verify your claim.

Don't you see the bias in your approach? Out of all the scientists in the world, you are looking at the few that find God through their research, whereas 90% of them begin to doubt God.

The reason I asked was because I went to an Al-Maghrib class on the Quran, where it was mentioned that there was no blind faith in Islam. You seem to take the opposite view that one needs faith before beliving in Allah.

I think it absolutely ridiculous to claim that one needs faith for both believing and disbelieving in God. I for example acknowledge God can exist, but believe that no one can truly know what he expects out of us. You have confirmed this by saying you need to take the leap of faith before believing in Allah.

 

[Hamayun]

The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions that they grew up in. There is no guarantee they will revert even after learning about Islam.

Truth of the matter is no matter what me or anyone else says to you here makes no difference. You have established an opinion and conclusion already judging by your above post.

I heard Shaytan is really good at his job. One his fortes is creating doubts in peoples hearts and judging by your posts he is doing a pretty darn good job.

Good luck :beard:

 

[ponderer331]

Thank You for your input.

The main point I wanted to make was that your initial decision was based upon faith whereas mine wasn't. And you seem to agree with me.

 

[جوري]

How ironic, when it is you who made the comment on how a post can make a sound.

Where is the irony? I fail to see it... you should think before you write, so you don't come across like a complete buffoon who seems to draw satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions!

You can say whatever. This is my last post in response to you.

we can only hope-- this does seem like the third time you have made that attempt & failed!


all the best

 

[Hamayun]

To a degree yes.
When I was an Atheist I did every sin under the sun. To my surprise rather than giving me pleasure it made me feel empty and depressed. I didn't want to blindly jump back into Islam.

Started reading the debates between Atheists and Muslims and found that I was no longer secure in my Atheist beliefs. This turned me into an Agnostic.

So then I went through the stages of trying to establish if Islam was fabricated by Muhammad SAW (Astaghfirullah). Also my wife (a non believing Christian) started asking me questions about Islam.
But after reading about what our beloved Prophet went through and how he lived his life and after reading the Quran there were no doubts anymore.

Me and my wife (Now a Muslim) turned to Islam and have found happiness and Peace ever since.

It is the best thing that has happened to us. I hope you find what you are looking for too...

 

[Chuck]

Thank You for your input.

The main point I wanted to make was that your initial decision was based upon faith whereas mine wasn't. And you seem to agree with me.

And that you concluded from his last post, even though his response is right. Interesting!

 

[ponderer331]

And that you concluded from his last post, even though his response is right. Interesting!

I'm not sure what you mean. Care to elaborate? He agrees with me...

 

[Chuck]

I'm not sure what you mean. Care to elaborate? He agrees with me...

He said "The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions"

Which is true. Western history of progress is based on conflict between science and religion, and that is the main reason most scientist in the west are not in religion even if any, and that forms a biased about religion in the mind of many scientist I've spoken to. That did not happen in history of Islamic scientific progress, and majority of them never lost religion. Actually, father of modern scientific method said that he become closer to God the more he studied nature.

 

[Hamayun]

Thats right Brother Chuck

Although there are always exceptions it is very rare to see a Muslim Scientist lose faith in Islam.

When those 90% of scientists are comparing Science to Religion they are usually referring to Christianity and are let down by claims such as "the earth is only a few thousand years old" and "the dinosaurs never existed".
Islam does not make any such contradictory claims

 

[YusufNoor]

Thanks for your answer.

My thought process goes something like this:

It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.

check out my link below, then i'll paste another In Sha' Allah!

Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this?

perhaps we could hold out hope that Allah[swt] grades on a curve? maybe Allah[swt] wants to see how far we are willing to go to figure out what He wants from us?


How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?

i don't think you (or anyone else) NEEDS to go through every religion. as a revert. it MAY be easier for me to see all the beauty in Islam as i am not blinded by culture and assibyyah.

Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.

Allah[swt] does not NEED our worship or our duas, they only benefit us!

Makes sense?

AsSalamu Alaykum Akhi,

i new to the thread so i'll start here. please click on the link below and go way down to the bottom of the page and watch the 1st 2 parts of Foundations of Islamic Studies. i'm hoping that his presentation on Tawheed will make sense to you.

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pages.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=288

if and when your done, i''l post a link to some work by a Mufti that absolutley blows me away. and another by a revert Sheikh that is pretty inclusive and explanatory.

May Allah[swt] make it easy on you, and may He grant you goodness in this life, goodness in the Akhira and may He save you from the punishment that is to come! Ameen!

 

[ponderer331]

He said "The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions"

Which is true. Western history of progress is based on conflict between science and religion, and that is the main reason most scientist in the west are not in religion even if any, and that forms a biased about religion in the mind of many scientist I've spoken to. That did not happen in history of Islamic scientific progress, and majority of them never lost religion. Actually, father of modern scientific method said that he become closer to God the more he studied nature.

I agree with your point on western history. However, the reason "Islamic scientists" never lose their religion is just because there are hardly any. I cannot find a single Muslim to ever make a significant modern contribution to the scientific community. How many Nobel Prize winners are Muslim?

I am not arguing Islam's historical contributions to science. I am stating that in today's society the reason you don't find many Muslim scientists leaving Islam is simply because there are few to begin with!

Besides, this is changing your argument. This is what Hamayun originally said:

A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam.

It seems to me that he was using the examples of these scientists to suggest that science causes a large number of scientists to convert to Islam. I argue that quantitatively, the percentage is very small, and cannot even be used to support Islam.

We cannot speculate on what would happen IF there were a lot of Muslim scientists, or IF all scientists would read up on Islam. We can only see the world for what it is.

Also, I am assuming you mean Galileo. Galileo was tried as a heretic. We could go on and on about arguing whether he was an atheist or not, so I'll leave it at that.

I look at things as objectively as possible. You have to present the opposing side as strong as possible; what good does it do for critical thinking if you simply look at it weakly?

 

[جوري]

lol-- is holdng a nobel prize the only way to be esteemed as a scientist? I think the folks of china and Japan for all their advancement will be rather disappointed considering there are less than 6 chinese nobel prize winners!
and wait how many from Japan 5 --yes.. sad!


search the web sherlock for publications in the Annals of surgery, molecular biology, genetics etc etc and let me know which paper doesn't have a Muslim name on it?
Go look at washington DC top 130 doctors and count the Muslim names on it before you open your unwitting yap!

hilarious!

 

[Chuck]

I agree with your point on western history. However, the reason "Islamic scientists" never lose their religion is just because there are hardly any. I cannot find a single Muslim to ever make a significant modern contribution to the scientific community. How many Nobel Prize winners are Muslim?

I am not arguing Islam's historical contributions to science. I am stating that in today's society the reason you don't find many Muslim scientists leaving Islam is simply because there are few to begin with!

Conflict between religion and science in west is not new, it has been there since science started to progress. If there was a problem with Islam and science, most scientist in Islamic era of scientific progress would have moved away from Islam like during the start of scientific progress in the west. Modern science started with muslim scientists, and in the west it started to have problems with religion from the beginning it reached there.

We cannot speculate on what would happen IF there were a lot of Muslim scientists, or IF all scientists would read up on Islam. We can only see the world for what it is.

I'm not speculating, I'm pointing out that there is background to it. It is hasty generalization without factoring in background.

what good does it do for critical thinking if you simply look at it weakly?

What weakly?

 

[Hamayun]

Bro ponderer what is the point? You have already established your opinion and drawn your conclusions. No point arguing. Good luck.

 

[ponderer331]

Conflict between religion and science in west is not new, it has been there since science started to progress. If there was a problem with Islam and science, most scientist in Islamic era of scientific progress would have moved away from Islam like during the start of scientific progress in the west. Modern science started with muslim scientists, and in the west it started to have problems with religion from the beginning it reached there.


I'm not speculating, I'm pointing out that there is background to it. It is hasty generalization without factoring in background.


What weakly?

The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't. What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:

Less Muslims become atheists after pursuing science, so Islam must have less of (if any) a conflict with science than other religions.

Anyway, my speculation point was directed at Hamayun, not you. See his previous posts.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading. I am writing an article on Delusion and Religion, and I will be using some of your posts here (especially Skye's :rollseyes ).

To see if Muslims lag behind in science today, I suggest you try to contact someone from someplace like the Royal Society or National Academy of Sciences or at least do a simple google search.

I'm out. Thank You all.

 

[جوري]

According to a recent study most doctors believe in God and an afterlife. This conclusion apparently contradicts earlier research which showed that in general, people tend to become less religious as education and income levels rise.
The survey by Farr Curlin, a doctor and instructor at the University of Chicago, of 1,125 U.S. doctors, found that 76 percent believe in God and nearly 60 percent in some sort of afterlife.

Curlin, who oversaw the survey, says he was surprised, as the team did not realize physicians were this religious.

He says they suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering, and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most religious traditions.

The researchers also found that 90 percent of doctors said they attend religious services at least occasionally, and are more likely to describe themselves as 'spiritual' as distinct from religious, whereas for the general population, spirituality and religion appear to be more tightly connected.

They found that doctors and patients also differ on how they rely on God for help in coping with a major illness, as while most patients will look to God for strength, support and guidance, most doctors will instead try to make sense of the situation and decide what to do without relying on God.

Of the doctors surveyed, 5 percent were Hindu, 2 percent Muslim and 1 percent Buddhist, all much higher than those faiths are represented in the general population and in part reflecting the large number of foreign-born doctors who emigrate to the United States, the study said.

The report is published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine


http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11272

thus you should back up your bull with facts, not your opinion but if you plan on publishing on the annals of morons.. by all means be my guest!

cheers

 

[جوري]

Here is another one quite relevant on how well Muslims are doing compared to their western counterparts

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/DUSS_Arab_America.pdf

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html


Make sure when you quote me for your awaited 'compost' that you include links and articles enclosed so your work would stink less

:haha:

every couple of weeks, they let one of them loose on Li..

 

[Chuck]

The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't.

I'm not aware of any such movement. New research goes against that opinion. Although, there always have been conflict going in the west between Christianity and science which has moved away many scientists from religion in history.

About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.
About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8916982/

What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:

I'm not making claim, I'm pointing out flaw in your comparison. You are not isolating relevant factors.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading.

Looks like hasty research so far.

 

[- Qatada -]

ponderer, you have to find your own way to Allah i.e. through reasoning and understanding. Try to put aside petty claims like other scientists don't believe in God while others do in modern times. That isn't going to increase or decrease you in faith in Allah. It's just drifting to another direction which is irrelevant.


I'll tell you some big points which make me question atheisms validity;


Throughout history, there has always been the question of what caused the universe to begin. People usually say God, the Originator of all things. And I agree with this. Let's see what the atheists say;

In the past, some kind of sneaky dude tried to argue that the universe was eternal without a beginning. that it's always been the way it has been. Sooo much philosophers took this stance, to the extent that some famous 'Muslims' even did i.e. Ibn Sina [avicenna] the philosopher (although its said he later repented from this false belief) etc.


Now turns out, Edwin Hubble finds out [in 1929] that the universe is expanding (with his Hubbal telescope), so it must have had a starting point. Uh-oh, all them people had made mistakes of an eternal universe, it had a beginning cause and a starting point.

Now atheists don't know, and can't prove scientifically who or what caused it. Therefore they've got a big missing answer which theists want an answer to. Theists keep their faith that this is how God caused the universe to begin.

Islam's view on the Big bang;
http://idawah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6


So atheists will say 'i dont know' clearly. Theists will say 'ha! God caused it'. Atheists will laugh (with some slight embarrassment) at theists, and theists will laugh at atheists for not knowing the answer. Theists will say, 'see, God knows we can believe in Him without seeing Him because of His signs through the logical reasoning and understanding He has given us'.



Another issue which theists want answering throughout history is who or what caused the universe to form the way it is today. Atheists like the past will not have much to argue except that 'it happened by chance'. Again, theists will say God controlled it and formed it to sustain life. Atheists will say it just happened so by chance and that this is why life is sustained. I.e. the earth being in the EXACT right place for life to be supported, if it was more in the direction of mars - we'd freeze to death, if abit near venus - we'd burn to death. We say God did it because He is wise and knowledgable and He wanted life to survive here - so He placed it in the right location.


We say that chaos does not cause harmony and control - especially for millions of years, atheists say 'it can happen, chance [or nature] can do it'. Now imagine this atheist says the word 'chance' or 'nature' - always replace it with a God who has control and knowledge, and there you go - you got the answer - God exists.



Thats our line of reasoning. If you want to read up on evolution, again refer to this link insha Allah;

http://idawah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6



Peace.

 

[Hamayun]

The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't. What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:

Less Muslims become atheists after pursuing science, so Islam must have less of (if any) a conflict with science than other religions.

Anyway, my speculation point was directed at Hamayun, not you. See his previous posts.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading. I am writing an article on Delusion and Religion, and I will be using some of your posts here (especially Skye's :rollseyes ).

To see if Muslims lag behind in science today, I suggest you try to contact someone from someplace like the Royal Society or National Academy of Sciences or at least do a simple google search.

I'm out. Thank You all.

So basically in order to find your eeman you have to be a world class scientist? Anyone elses opinion doesn't count?

Doesn't look like you were searching at all Bro. You just came here to give us your opinions.
Also the fact that it seemed you were doing us a favour by "searching" says a lot about your personality.

Not that it matters but I lost whatever little respect I had for you.