Sects

[fschmidt]

In several places the Quran warns against dividing Islam into sects. But what does this mean? Is this a rejection of any type of categorization of Muslims? One can categorize Muslims by country, by sex, by age, and in many other ways. Is this a problem? I don't think so. So when is grouping Muslims a problem? I believe that it is a problem when the groups reject each other as Muslims. When group X says that group Y are not real Muslims, then group X is a sect. The issue isn't so much different groups as it is serious division within Islam.

How can this kind of division be avoided? A major source of division is differing beliefs. There are two ways that one can handle differing beliefs. One is to insist on one orthodoxy, one set of beliefs that everyone must hold. The other is to tolerate differing beliefs and allow different groups (schools of thought) to form with differing beliefs as long as they all accept each other as Muslims. The first approach was tried in Christianity and the results were a disaster. Enforcing uniform beliefs requires oppression and encourages making people stupid to prevent them from having their own ideas. This is what the Catholic Church did. Sunni Islam needs to be careful not to follow this path.

The best way to avoid sects is through tolerance. This means that Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmadiyya, and Quranists should all be considered Muslim. You may disagree with the beliefs of some groups, but that doesn't mean that they aren't Muslim.

Is there a danger in having so much tolerance that complete hypocrites are accepted as Muslims? Yes, but this risk is still less of a danger than sectarianism. Defining a Muslim simply as one who says the shahada opens one up to this risk. A more conservative definition would be to define a Muslim as someone who follows the five pillars of Islam based on his own understanding. This at least requires some action by the person which means that he can't be a complete hypocrite, but it is still flexible enough to allow for differing beliefs.

I have a practical personal reason for raising this issue. I am a non-Muslim who follows the Old Testament and I am considering converting to Islam. For me, converting would not mean giving up the Old Testament, it would just mean accepting the Quran. I would follow both. I would call myself a Karaite Muslim which means that I would follow Islam (the Quran) based on my understanding which comes from the Old Testament. My interest in Islam comes from my understanding that there is no meaningful difference between the Old Testament and the Quran, and that in fact the Quran follows logically from the Old Testament. For me, the two fit perfectly together. Yes I admit that this is an unusual view, but it is my view. Whether I would be considered a Muslim or a heretic depends on the issues that I raised in this post.

 

[BeTheChange]

Re: Sects & conversion advice

Hello

The different sects can be confusing but the most important thing to remember is not to apply our own interpretation and understanding. We must speak to our knowledgeable teachers and scholars. If you are researching about Islam i would highly recommend visiting your local masjid.

You won't be able to believe in The Old Testament if it conflicts with the Quraan. I don't know anything about The Old Testament so i am afraid i cannot comment however please watch this thought provoking video:

The basic principles which make you a muslim are outlined below:


You must believe Allah swt and believe in the oneless of Allah swt. There are many attributes of Allah swt but the very basic include HE has no partner's. HE has no children. HE has no human attributes. HE was never born nor will HE end. Did you know Allah swt has 100 names in total. It is mind boggling but to try and attempt to understand watch this video

You must believe Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is the final messenger s.a.w. You must believe in hell and heaven. You must believe in the day of judgement, the angels, all of the prophets peace and blessings be upon them, the unseen world.

Visit http://kalamullah.com/sects.html for more information.

Hopefully this helps insha Allah.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

The best way to avoid sects is through tolerance. This means that Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmadiyya, and Quranists should all be considered Muslim. You may disagree with the beliefs of some groups, but that doesn't mean that they aren't Muslim.

Is there a danger in having so much tolerance that complete hypocrites are accepted as Muslims? Yes, but this risk is still less of a danger than sectarianism. Defining a Muslim simply as one who says the shahada opens one up to this risk. A more conservative definition would be to define a Muslim as someone who follows the five pillars of Islam based on his own understanding. This at least requires some action by the person which means that he can't be a complete hypocrite, but it is still flexible enough to allow for differing beliefs.

Islam is well defined by the Qur'an and Sunnah. Anyone who rejects anything from what Allah :swt: has revealed in the Qur'an, or anything from what has been established from the Prophet :saws:, cannot be called a Muslim.

What you are calling for is not tolerance, rather it is corruption of Religion. You are asking for diluting Islam to make it acceptable to everyone's whims. We cannot allow that to happen.

You know for a fact that 5 x 5 = 25. You want us to accept that 5 x 4 is also 25, and 5 x 6 is also 25, 4 x 6 is also 25! Is that reasonable?

 

[Abz2000]

It is possible to unite under a single leader if the people trust that he will make the best decisions, this has been demonstrated multiple times in the life of Muhammad :saws: and the life of Sulaiman :saws: .

The reason why you are perceiving a mountain sized problem fschmidt is that your leaders are corrupt and greedy liars (this is not meant to deride you, but to spell out the reality of the situation), and it's difficult to imagine anyone handing their keys over to them - let alone their lives.

When the people of Sa'd ibn mu'aadh's tribe saw that he had accepted Islam, they all trusted him so much that they followed suit and united under the leadership of the prophet :saws: despite most of them having been pagans before that.

We live in interesting times where "all roads lead to rome" even the ones that are hidden under a layer of dust.

 

[fschmidt]

The different sects can be confusing but the most important thing to remember is not to apply our own interpretation and understanding. We must speak to our knowledgeable teachers and scholars.

What is the basis of this statement? This approach is exactly what caused Judaism to go wrong.

If you are researching about Islam i would highly recommend visiting your local masjid.

I have been going twice a week for over a year.

You won't be able to believe in The Old Testament if it conflicts with the Quraan.

This is off topic, so I won't respond.

Islam is well defined by the Qur'an and Sunnah. Anyone who rejects anything from what Allah has revealed in the Qur'an, or anything from what has been established from the Prophet , cannot be called a Muslim.

You mean anyone who reject your interpretation (which is Sunni). The Quran was clearly written with the intention to be general, and the Sunnis are distorting this by insisting on specific interpretations.

What you are calling for is not tolerance, rather it is corruption of Religion. You are asking for diluting Islam to make it acceptable to everyone's whims. We cannot allow that to happen.

The Sunni view corrupts religion by obsessing about what people say and ignoring what people do (in contradiction to Quran 49:14). Islam would be less corrupt if there was more focus on righteous action and less on conformity of belief (interpretation).

You know for a fact that 5 x 5 = 25. You want us to accept that 5 x 4 is also 25, and 5 x 6 is also 25, 4 x 6 is also 25! Is that reasonable?

Someone who says that 5*4=25 is not a disbeliever in math, they are just incompetent at math. The same applies to someone who misinterprets the Quran.

It is possible to unite under a single leader if the people trust that he will make the best decisions,

I doubt that anyone alive today deserves such trust. I think the best hope is to rebuild religion from the bottom up based on small groups of righteous people who focus on promoting good instead of arguing about minor differences in belief.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

You mean anyone who reject your interpretation (which is Sunni). The Quran was clearly written with the intention to be general, and the Sunnis are distorting this by insisting on specific interpretations.

You do not even have to interpret anything. Just take the Qur'an and the Sunnah as it is, in their original form, and anyone who rejects anything from that is a disbeliever.

Sunni is not a sect. The word sunni is only used to differentiate us from those who have distorted the religion and made sects. Did you know that the word shia itself means a sect?

Allah :swt: says,

So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
[Adhere to it], turning in repentance to Him, and fear Him and establish prayer and do not be of those who associate others with Allah
[Or] of those who have divided their religion and become sects, every faction rejoicing in what it has. [Ar-Rum: 30-32]

 

[Abz2000]

I doubt that anyone alive today deserves such trust.

Have you heard the parable of the donkey which died because it stood there for ages trying to decide whether to eat straw or grass despite good lawful food being before him which was lawful for him to eat?

I think the best hope is to rebuild religion from the bottom up based on small groups of righteous people who focus on promoting good instead of arguing about minor differences in belief.

As long as the people are seeking to unite upon the just truth - this method works, such communities can co-operate and assist each other whilst being careful to avoid falsehood and corruption.

This is how the village systems work in many places, they have their own little meetings, elections, judgements, taxes, social development schemes etc.

I did notice the banks trying to wade in and corrupt it by paying a local and making a condom and pill advert and putting it up (they use such people as liasion in the micro-usury system too) , but i simply stated that it was a corruption to children since they'd ask each other what these things were on their way to and from home and simply pulled the banner down and chucked it in the ditch, the liasion woman was a family friend and when she came to visit the next day she told me the bank had done it without her request - and put her name on it because she was given that stuff to hand out to the boys and girls.

So yup, as long as the intention is to draw together on the guidance of Allah :swt: these micro systems can form well disciplined communities and even hold conventions.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

fschmidt I understand your concerns about the scourge sectarianism, no point denying it, but your solution would lead to more problems than it solves. We are not here to be all things to all people.

There's always been debates about what between Muslims but some things are clear. Ahmadiyya believe that the promised Messiah has arrived in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Naturally that puts them outside the fold. We must not forget that the British tried to cultivate them (I wonder why?) during colonial times. Whats interesting is that they have now resumed their role as British government fawners and bootlickers.

Quranists are seculars in the making. they are more concerned with worshiping modernity than worshiping Allah. Again not a new phenomena if you look at European history

These groups are backed by powerful outside interests and for good reason, there purpose is to subvert and undermine Muslims. They parasite of the Islamic tradition.

For anybody who wants to see where fschmidt suggestions will lead, we only need to look at the contemporary state of Christianity in the UK.

Some comments

Kevin Stokes

The absolute state of the Anglican Church

Gaz Roberts

Reverend who can't even answer if he believes in God and clearly doesn't believe the bible, and instead just waffles. And people wonder why the church is irrelevant.

tubularbill

An Anglican Minister that cant say he believes in God?....then how did he get his job?...

Metkaf

Career clergyman. It's a cushy number, and you can do what/believe what you want.

Rees-Mogg for PM

My goodness, how does Peter manage to stay calm in this room with these people?!

Aileen Bordelon

Peter looks like he wants to kill himself and I don’t blame him.

Lionel Chan

The West is doomed

Thanks for the upload.

Valiant Woman

"Can you be a Christian without God?" -- what a nonsensical question!

John

Anglicans how far have you fallen Protestantism is the first steps to atheism.

Strefanasha

the atheist in clerical garb tells us that omniscience and love are incompatible in the same Being? This is why the Anglican Church is so irrelevant. They tolerate rank heresy as this. So they do not stand for anything. Oh, I don't ask them to burn this fool at the stake, just SACK HIM. He is NOT qualified for his post just as I am not qualified to be a bus driver as I never learned to drive

Sean Cullen

No wonder Islam is taking over we have thrown God out,

Poor Peter Hitchens, even though we are on opposite sides of the fence I feel for him, watching Christianity in the UK implode right in front of his eyes.

Heres another video on the limits of tolerance.

 

[anatolian]

How can this kind of division be avoided?

By reading, understanding and following Quran. Do what Quran says to do and dont do what Quran says not to do and respects the others for what Quran does not say something. Otherwise heresy thus division is unavoidable.

 

[fschmidt]

For anybody who wants to see where fschmidt suggestions will lead, we only need to look at the contemporary state of Christianity in the UK.

Islam today prefers the Muslim who believes one should pray 5 times per day but never actually prays himself over the Muslim who believes one should pray 4 times per day and does it consistently. Belief is valued far above action. My suggestion is to reverse this and accept anyone as Muslim who follows some basic practices. How does this relate to contemporary state of Christianity? Christianity gave up its practices first, then its beliefs. Islam could easily go down the same path in the West. To stop this, emphasize practices over beliefs.

But I wrote the original post over 2 months ago and my thinking has changed. Basically I now think that all major religions are a lost cause because they will never do what I just suggested. The real solution is to form moral groups outside of religion. Such a group should be composed of religious people, but it hardly matters which religion each person belongs to as long as he/she actually practices it. The world today is a horrible mess and only moral groups can solve it. And since religions spend their time pointlessly arguing about silly differences in beliefs, they are not the answer. The answer must be groups that focus on morality itself.

 

[Ümit]

Islam today prefers the Muslim who believes one should pray 5 times per day but never actually prays himself over the Muslim who believes one should pray 4 times per day and does it consistently. Belief is valued far above action. My suggestion is to reverse this and accept anyone as Muslim who follows some basic practices. How does this relate to contemporary state of Christianity? Christianity gave up its practices first, then its beliefs. Islam could easily go down the same path in the West. To stop this, emphasize practices over beliefs.

But I wrote the original post over 2 months ago and my thinking has changed. Basically I now think that all major religions are a lost cause because they will never do what I just suggested. The real solution is to form moral groups outside of religion. Such a group should be composed of religious people, but it hardly matters which religion each person belongs to as long as he/she actually practices it. The world today is a horrible mess and only moral groups can solve it. And since religions spend their time pointlessly arguing about silly differences in beliefs, they are not the answer. The answer must be groups that focus on morality itself.

You got it wrong. the Muslim who believes one should pray 5 times a day but never actually prays (person A) is more valued over the one who believes one should pray 4 times a day and does it consistently (person B)...because person B is rejecting a fundamental issue in Islaam. unless of course he somehow accidentally got his facts wrong so he did not learn it correctly. If person B, never knew the correct amount was 5, so he never actively rejected this, then person B is much more valued than person A.Therefore this example is not valid.

Belief, intentions and actions all are valued in Islaam.

About accepting people as Muslims...there is no such thing as accepting or not accepting who is a muslim and who is not. Islaam is not like Judaism to accept or not accept people. You do not ask anyones permission to become Muslim...there is no one to accept...Only Allah can judge who is a Muslim and who is not. We do not have that power.

I for example, do not accept nor reject the claims of shia that they are Muslim...there are so many different Shia sects out there...it is hard to distinguish who believes what...I only think that if you reject one of the 6 articles of Imaan...then you are in the danger zone or even beyond the borders of Islaam. On the other hand...everyone who has faith in God in the weight of a mustard seed are considered Muslims...so, that can be quite a large group beside the known Muslims...so we really do not know.