Secular Islam Summit

[Muezzin]

Has anyone actually heard/read what any of these speakers have said? I personally don't know enough about them to make a judgement either way.

Also, not to put words into SilentObserver's mouth, but what I think he is getting at is that certain people are paying so much attention to the little details that they lose the spirit of what Islam is all about - people can't see the wood for the trees sort of thing.

 

[Malaikah]

^Maybe this will explain a little:

According the chair of the meeting, the rationalist critic of Islam and acclaimed author Ibn Warraq

The chair of the meeting (which I am assuming is something like the organiser?) is an apostate who has authored many books about why Islam sucks, about why people have left Islam etc.

Isn't that proof enough that something shifty is going on here? And just look at the title, Secular Islam summit, they are just asking for trouble.

 

[Muezzin]

Maybe, but we cannot shy away from criticism. We can rebut it, but the only way to do that is to face it. Let them have their say. If what they say is nonsense, they will look like fools. If some of what they say is true, we can learn.

 

[Skywalker]

Interesting thread...here are my 2 cents. I support free thinking in Islam and in fact encourage it. I think that in this day in age, we seriously need free-thinking people to come up with new and inspirational ways of bringing Islam into the 21st century and improving the lives of humans all around the world.

However, there are basic rules you have to stick to, which are of course, the Qur'an and Sunnah. Forsaking those rules can no longer be called Islam.

As Muezzin said, we haven't heard what these people at the summit are talking about to judge them on whether they're right or wrong, but if you take what's written at face value, it doesn't seem very encouraging at all. It's called the Secular Islamic Summit for one...which is a bit contradictory in itself. And of course the summit being chaired by Ibn Warraq, the self-proclaimed apostate and in my opinion an enemy of Allah, doesn't give them much in terms of credibility to say the least. Not to mention the other people that you guys pointed out. For a group of people like this to determine the course of Islam, I would not be enthusiastic about in the slightest, but I'm still willing to at least listen to what they have to say.

Islam can be reformed, but not by people who don't know anything about it. The Qur'an and Sunnah can be re-interpreted in a modern context among educated and open-minded individuals. Finding those kinds of individuals is tricky, but they're there. I believe that the people at this summit ARE open-minded, but the question is how knowledgable they are, and how devoted to the preservation of their religion and Allah's message they are.

My prediction...if this group goes in the direction that I fear it will, it will cause yet another division in Islam, which is the last thing we need 3authubillah.

Does anyone have any links to details about what they'll be talking about? Or if there's a webpage for this summit?

 

[SilentObserver]

I doubt that you have the right understand of the early message.

-SI-

You are entitled to your opinion, and to doubt. You are wrong, but entitled.

 

[Skillganon]

How do you know who possesses the truth when there are conflicting statements made, both backed by the Quran?

Their can't be conflicting statement backed from the Quran.
Either one statement is false or both are false. Not the Quran.
We understand Islam by the way the salaf understood it.

I am saying it is quite an average group, with a typical range of mental capacity. What was hard to understand about that?

If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead. I don't see the point of making such statement in the first place.

I took into account the wide range of ages that frequent the forum.

Well, I am sure you also took into account people from different countries. Their ability to articulate in english might not be reflective of the Intelligence
Although I never go by that criteria generally it can be misleading sometimes.
It's like a person who hardly articulates in english and prefers to post in simple manner. The person may be very intelligent. It just that we don't know.

Some are brilliant in fact. Some are quite intelligent, while some are average, and there are some that are not so bright. All being said, quite an average group.

Well, I guess this people exist in all social sphere, but intelligence is a hard thing to measure.

Anyway, it is clear this is a summit of secular's and the type of people are their is open to see. So their is no good from them.

Secondly Islam does not need reform, who ever say's that have no right over Allah(swt) Word and the Messengers(pbuh). Muslim suppose to understand the way the salaf understood it.

Those who need reform are those who are not on the path and have deviated from it, by calling them back to it. Not reforming Islam.

The brothers & sisters who grasp this are open minded and Educated Individuals.

 

[Bittersteel]

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/blewis.htm
^that's Bernard Lewis' writing.I don't think Warraq comes near him.

If some of what they say is true, we can learn.

we know what's wrong with us,we don't need to learn.we just have the wrong people in the wrong places and it will take time to change.

Well to be fair, muslims on this forum have the typical intelligence range that you would find in any group of this size, from 'not so sharp' to 'quite brilliant'.

I have such intelligence range everywhere.It exists everywhere.

 

[north_malaysian]

I dont know about other secular/liberal Muslims... but those in Malaysia they interprete Islam by using translations of Al Quran (English or Malay) .. not from Arabic itself.... (as they are not Arabic speakers... I doubt they know Arabic at all)...

Some even rejected hadiths (ie. Kassim Ahmad, leader of the banned "Jemaah Al Quran Malaysia" (Malaysian Al Quran Congregation)... and they read "Bacaan" (100% Malay Language Koran - which dont have Koranic wordings at all)imsad

 

[Skillganon]

I am not suprised bro

 

[SilentObserver]

How do you know who possesses the truth when there are conflicting statements made, both backed by the Quran?

Their can't be conflicting statement backed from the Quran.
Either one statement is false or both are false. Not the Quran.
We understand Islam by the way the salaf understood it.

Come on, stop being lazy and use your imagination. Is it really necessary for me to paint the entire picture for you each time?
There are many times that reputable muslim scholars will have made conflicting statements, and they will each back their position with verses from the Quran. I understand that the Quran says what it says, and it does not change. It is within the interpretation by the scholar that the discrepancy occurs. So, the fact that it occurs is not up for dispute, and it is not always easy to know which is the correct interpretation, the question has not been answered. Perhaps someone less inclined to give the standard boilerplate lazy answer would like to answer. Really you know, this defensive dialogue that some here take is impeding real discussion.

I am saying it is quite an average group, with a typical range of mental capacity. What was hard to understand about that?

If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead. I don't see the point of making such statement in the first place.

Oh how short the memory of some around here. Since you have forgotten, let me remind you that the point of making such statement was only a response to your statement about intelligence. It is here;

p.s. SilentObserver Muslims on this forum are not stupid.

and here;

I hope you are not insulting the intelligence of my muslim brothers and sisters.

Intelligence has nothing to do with the conversation. For some unknown reason you informed me that muslims on the forum are not stupid. I responded. That was the point of making such statement.

If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead.

It doesn't make me feel anything. It was simply a response to an odd statement.

Well, I am sure you also took into account people from different countries. Their ability to articulate in english might not be reflective of the Intelligence
Although I never go by that criteria generally it can be misleading sometimes.
It's like a person who hardly articulates in english and prefers to post in simple manner. The person may be very intelligent. It just that we don't know.

Well, I guess this people exist in all social sphere, but intelligence is a hard thing to measure.

Look, there doesn't need to be an indepth analysis of my thought processes that lead me to conclude that the people on this forum are just like everyone else in the world. Some very smart, some not.
If you want to believe that each and every one is a genius, be my guest. If you are the measuring stick, I can see wh......
Anyway, this is way off topic, I only responded to your comments. I suggest we drop it.



Back to the topic.

It astounds me that someone like yourself that claims to be from the religion of islam, would be so abrupt and critical in dealings with others( I don't mean me - I give and take what I deserve), and so judgemental. It is true ignorance of the religion you defend. These things are exactly what I spoke of earlier when I said islam was not like this in the past. It is common among muslims today. Some get what islam is, many do not.

Among some of the most beautiful, kind-spirited people I have met, have been muslims. These muslims gave me the impression that this was the behaviour of true muslims, not the confrontational muslims that I had been observing elsewhere.

So I decided to see if I could find some truth. And I have. You are wrong. This confrontational, paranoid, and judgemental way does not represent true islam. The good muslims I have met, they do. The good muslims I have known, are not close-minded, they are open to all discussion, and do it peacefully. They would attend this seminar without hesitation. They might not agree with anything said, but they are not bound by ignorance and fear of what might be said. They are free.

They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.

Fear and ignorance of your religion are holding you back.

 

[SilentObserver]

we know what's wrong with us,[B]we ...thinking like this we are in serious trouble.

 

[Skywalker]

They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.

That's the problem. Most Muslims aren't secure enough in their knowledge of Islam, and they know that others around them are not as well, so they try to protect themselves and others from going astray by shielding them from information that could be confusing and contradictory to what they know. Not many people are as knowledgable about Islam and intelligent enough to be as secure as you're suggestng. Plus, why do you think that people are being judgemental? In this thread we looked at the people's history to have a good idea of how they think, such as Ibn Warraq and the others who just happen to be apostates. We're not at all encouraged that people like this are hosting such a summit, or any summit that has the word Islam in it, but as I said before, I for one am ready to at least hear what they have to say.

 

[SilentObserver]

That's the problem. Most Muslims aren't secure enough in their knowledge of Islam, and they know that others around them are not as well, so they try to protect themselves and others from going astray by shielding them from information that could be confusing and contradictory to what they know. Not many people are as knowledgable about Islam and intelligent enough to be as secure as you're suggestng. Plus, why do you think that people are being judgemental? In this thread we looked at the people's history to have a good idea of how they think, such as Ibn Warraq and the others who just happen to be apostates. We're not at all encouraged that people like this are hosting such a summit, or any summit that has the word Islam in it, but as I said before, I for one am ready to at least hear what they have to say.

Most of these people have been labelled by other muslims as apostates (except one who labelled himself out of frustration). They are still practicing muslims, yet because some judgemental shmuck decides that he doesn't like what the guy says, he's an apostate? Only God has the right to say who is right and who is not. These people are more in God's favor than someone that claims to be but only speaks judgement and strife.

 

[Malaikah]

^That actually is not true. There are many acts that make people an apostate. Also, I think most people said that the people were committing acts of apostasy, not necessary that they are apostates.

Rejecting the completeness of the Quran, saying that God made a mistake, rejecting something that is 100% authentic, such as statement in the Quran, as being false, are all acts of apostasy.

It isn't as simple as someone saying that they believe, because some acts, such as the ones I mentioned above, show that the person, in reality, does not believe.

 

[SilentObserver]

That actually is true, please don't speak without knowledge.
Many of the people that plan to attend this summit are practicing muslims that have been targeted by closed-minded bigots that are afraid that being nice might actually be a requirement from God.

 

[Malaikah]

So? Where did I say attending the summit itself was an act of apostasy? The point was that many of the main speakers have made statements of apostasy and still stick by their views.

 

[SilentObserver]

So? Where did I say attending the summit itself was an act of apostasy? The point was that many of the main speakers have made statements of apostasy and still stick by their views.

What proof do you have of many of the main speakers commiting acts of apostacy?
Why do you slander these people?

 

[Malaikah]

One of the speakers:

Manji thinks Muslims should take tolerant parts of the Koran and ignore the hellfire.

She, not unlike the fundamentalists, picks and chooses the bits that suit her.

“Literalists” who consider the Koran the “perfect manifesto of God” have taken over the mainstream

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article544800.ece

Those are all statements of apostasy. She is known to be very public with her statements.

So sad.

 

[SilentObserver]

One of the speakers:

Those are all statements of apostasy. She is known to be very public with her statements.

So sad.

So what of the rest? You claim that many of the speakers are apostates, so what about the rest?


As for your quotes;

Manji thinks Muslims should take tolerant parts of the Koran and ignore the hellfire.

She didn't actually make this statement, even if she did, so what? Too much tolerance for you?

She, not unlike the fundamentalists, picks and chooses the bits that suit her.

Again, not her statement, the opinion of the reporter. This is exactly what you and most other muslims do, by the way.

“Literalists” who consider the Koran the “perfect manifesto of God” have taken over the mainstream,

in other words, if someone says that a verse means to go kill an apostate, then someone needs to go kill them a.s.a.p. Do you defend this thinking?

What is so sad, is the blatent intolerance and close-minded indifference to truth, and the rooting out of those that seek only to oppress others with their cruel judgements. Evil thinking.

 

[Malaikah]

About the others:

* Ibn Warraq - he wrote books like "Why I am Not a Muslim", "Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out"...

* Nonie Darwish - ex-Muslim converted to Evangelical Christianity.

* Afshin Ellian - wikipedia says he's a former Muslim.

* Dr. Walid Phares - a Maronite Catholic Lebanese

At least 3 of the speakers are ex-Muslims, and one is a born-Christian ... what a summit.... Islam-bashing everyone?

Again, not her statement, the opinion of the reporter. This is exactly what you and most other muslims do, by the way.

Do not tell me what I do and what I do not do. It is very clear from everything she stands for that not only does she pick and choose, she denies that they are even requirements even though the evidence is clear.

I know that I am not a perfect Muslim, but at least I don't go around saying that the sins I do are not sins at all. The denial is an act of apostaxy, depending on how clear-cut the evidence is.