Secularising Islam?

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@Eliphaz

before I respond to your specific comments, please define ijtihad for me because your definition seemed to be different from traditionalist definition. What kind of ijtihad you are talking about? According to you, what sort of changes do the Shari'ah require through ijtihad?

@aamirsab

akhee, you're wrong; please read bro sampharo's last post as he clarified it clearly. State laws are always forced on people to bring order and justice within society and the Shari'ah is no different.
 
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@aamirsab

akhee, you're wrong; please read bro sampharo's last post as he clarified it clearly. State laws are always forced on people to bring order and justice within society and the Shari'ah is no different.

Yeah that's true in an Islamic state :)
 
Even in secular society this is understood: What will happen without public nudity or indecency laws? Why wouldn't drunk-driving be legal? Why shouldn't people be able to rob and steal? The Shariah law governs the wrong things that humans can do and affect others, creating a harmonious existence in society. Someone who wears hijab while hating it and wanting to take it off but is not doing so because of the application of the law, is the same as a man who doesn't run around stark naked because the cops application of the law. God judges the intentions and what is in our heart, but that does not mean that society faces and endures whatever behaviour of some of its members no matter how deviant or wrong.

A woman may not want to wear hijab, but a thousand young boys parents don't want their young teenage boys seeing half-naked miniskirts walking around the streets. Someone might want to drink their fill of alcohol, but society does not have to tolerate mumbling drunks crashing around the alleys and driving their cars into people. So while the west stumbles around building a hundred thousand laws into their man-made code to try and reach perfect society (but often miss and overshoot, like when they went as far as putting nation-wide curfue on minors and arrested any teenagers who were simply outside after a certain time!) or at least what the average person thinks could represent a respectable society, Shariah law was perfectly laid for the muslim community to follow.
I agree that laws are in place to keep society in order and to discourage people from committing crime.
On a human level I benefit and feel safer in a society where good laws are in place and reinforced.

That was not the focus of my question though.

My question is how much value has it in God's eyes, when somebody lives a 'good life' - but not willingly and out of submission to God, but only because s/he is forced to do so by the state law?
If - as you say - God judges our intentions and what is in our hearts (and personally I agree with you), then would that 'good life' gain no reward from God?
 
You keep asking the same question on various threads, a question that has no answer, since none of us are God to answer for God. You always do that and then upset when the reply doesn't suit your frame of mind. What would make you happy? If I were are to say, God loves it when you feel goodness but don't act upon his laws? Or perhaps, you are ****ed to eternal hell for not enforcing God's laws and in turn you'd woefully lament on how incredibly unfair that is of him when you are so good about everything else. We can only tell you what God has told us.

That he is Just, and no good or bad deed goes unaccounted for!

1- We are not God to pass judgment or know for certain -- certainty is a christian tenet not an Islamic one.
2- asking the same question on various threads will produce the same outcome, I assure you.. there is nothing wrong or missing from the replies, but there is something absurd in the question itself, since again none of us are God to know what it is 'God thinks of' anthropomorphism as well is a christian tenet not an Islamic one!

You should ask yourself the same and let us know of your reply.
If no one believes in the Jesus is God fiasco, doesn't want to eat his flesh or drink his blood or believes in him as a lord and savior, will they be forgiven because well they are good about everything else? and can you back up your reply from your scriptures?

all the best!
 
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I agree that laws are in place to keep society in order and to discourage people from committing crime.
On a human level I benefit and feel safer in a society where good laws are in place and reinforced.

That was not the focus of my question though.

My question is how much value has it in God's eyes, when somebody lives a 'good life' - but not willingly and out of submission to God, but only because s/he is forced to do so by the state law?
If - as you say - God judges our intentions and what is in our hearts (and personally I agree with you), then would that 'good life' gain no reward from God?

What Gossamer said, we cannot know either way.

But Shariah law is more of a system to foster and preserve the Islamic way of life on earth, as opposed to a magical umbrella for which everyone who lives beneath it gets into Heaven.

Muslims nowadays are by no means unanimous on how Shariah can or should be implemented considering that, in my opinion, it does need to be updated or at least consolidated with the changes that have gone on in society as a whole, globalisation being a huge part.

There is nothing blasphemous in saying that Shariah needs to be updated, for it is partly man-made is it not? And men - scholars - no matter how respected and eminent and pious they were, were still prisoners of their own times, and by extension, the prominent thoughts and customs which existed in those times.
 
I agree that laws are in place to keep society in order and to discourage people from committing crime.
On a human level I benefit and feel safer in a society where good laws are in place and reinforced.

That was not the focus of my question though.

My question is how much value has it in God's eyes, when somebody lives a 'good life' - but not willingly and out of submission to God, but only because s/he is forced to do so by the state law?
If - as you say - God judges our intentions and what is in our hearts (and personally I agree with you), then would that 'good life' gain no reward from God?

Oh I did not understand before that that is what you were asking about.

Actually there is a good answer for you but I hope you will keep an open mind to comprehend it:

Fundamentally speaking, intention has everything to do with a person's reward or punishment towards his actions. We are not rewarded for any good deeds that we do if we were doing it for self-serving purposes and not God. If we give money to someone because we intend to ask him later to help with something, or want him to speak well of us, or going after a tax-break, then our action earned us no reward with God, and it is not recorded for us.

On the authority of Omar Ibn Al-Khattab -RAA- narrated that the prophet -pbuh- said: "Acts and deeds are based on intention, and for every one his intention is counted. So whomever makes hijra (immigration) for God and his prophet, then his hijra was for God and his prophet, and whomever makes hijra for a business to attend to or a woman to marry, then his hijra is for whatever it is he intended it to be." [Agreed Upon Muslim and Bukhary] Note that hijra at the time was an act of worship that people were rewarded for, so it refers here to a good deed being done for a worldly gain rather than God, and that the one who does that loses any reward.

The prophet -pbuh- once told in a long hadith (narrated by Abi Abdul Rahman Abdullah Ibn Omar), about three believing people before the companion's time who were travelling together in the desert, and when they went into a cave for shelter, the rocks moved and a big one fell on the entrance to cover it. The three men tried to move it but couldn't, and one was inspired that they pray to God and supplicate to help them move the rock, and mention the best of their deeds in the supplication in begging for His support. The first man told his story (great act of kindness, love and respect shown to his parents) and the rock moved a little. The second one (which is our point here) prayed and supplicated with that he once loved and desired a woman madly and always talked to her about being with him but she refused, until one harsh year when she was in distress and need, he offered her a great amount of money in return to letting him have her. She reluctantly accepted, and when he became with her privately and was about to have his way, she said: "Fear god, and do not break the seal without righteousness" at which point his heart moved him and he collected himself and stood up, and left her with the money and walked away without commiting the act. So the man said "If you know that I did that for you God and accepted it from me as a good deed, help us in our need". The rock moved again. The third goes on but this is not the place for the whole thing....

This hadith along with others is the evidence that consensus of Islamic scholars depend on in teaching that abandoning a sin for the sake of God, is a good deed in itself. It is obedience to God and counts as doing an act of kindness, the bigger the sin avoided, the bigger the reward for NOT doing it. This of course is ONLY when someone is not doing the sin, because he is obeying the commands of God, rather than someone who doesn't want to get caught.

So yes, there is a difference between a woman who wears hijab because shariah law dictates it and in an Islamic society she can't go out in showing her "assets" without hassle and a run in with the law, and a woman who wears hijab out of commitment to the ordainment of God and willfully to please God.

So someone who doesn't do the sin because he was forced, does not receive the reward.

Here is a twist though: there is still a difference also between someone who is enforced to obey Shariah law or maybe or indirectly co-erced (for example not allowing alcohol so one cannot buy it even if one wants to) while fully intending to commit the sin, and someone who commits the sin regardless of whether against the law or he was in a place where it wasn't enforced.

The person who does the crime, earns the sin, and it gets recorded. If he does it while avoiding and meticulously evading detection from the law, it becomes even a greater sin because he is insistent upon it and his intention is strong and he has to lie and deceive to get away with it. The person who fears the law's punishment or is incapable of making the sin but wants to, gets nothing recorded because the act was not made.

So the intention differentiates between three groups of people:
- Those who avoid the sin because they wish to obey and please God, get rewarded for their piety and fighting temptations. The bigger the temptations they turn down, the bigger the reward.

- Those who do not commit the sin, because they didn't have access to it or were afraid of punishment based on law and shariah. They do not get the reward of the pious, but at least they get no sin recorded.

- Those who commit the sin, it gets recorded against them and God judges them. God is the all-knowing and all-judging and He either forgives them based on his will and mercy and the intentions and what lies in the person's heart, punishes them in this life to cleanse them of it so they don't pay for it in the afterlife (great mercy), delays the punishment till the grave and the afterlife where they receive great punishment in hell for it, or the sin is specifically grand and earns punishment both in this life and in the afterlife (like unkindness and ingratitude to parents, or abandoning prayers).

Hope this helped you understand.

God knows best.
 
What Gossamer said, we cannot know either way.

But Shariah law is more of a system to foster and preserve the Islamic way of life on earth, as opposed to a magical umbrella for which everyone who lives beneath it gets into Heaven.

Muslims nowadays are by no means unanimous on how Shariah can or should be implemented considering that, in my opinion, it does need to be updated or at least consolidated with the changes that have gone on in society as a whole, globalisation being a huge part.

There is nothing blasphemous in saying that Shariah needs to be updated, for it is partly man-made is it not? And men - scholars - no matter how respected and eminent and pious they were, were still prisoners of their own times, and by extension, the prominent thoughts and customs which existed in those times.
Maybe I am the only participant in this topic who agree with you.
Shariah need and possible to be updated. In fact, some rules in Shariah law has updated at least in my country. In example, I found in old style Shariah law if a husband want to divorce his wife, he can say "I divorce you" anywhere, anytime, and the wife automatically becomes a widow. But this is not fair for the wife. So, in new style Shariah law if a husband want to divorce his wife, he must go to Shariah court. This divorcing need a trial process and must approved by the judge.
 
Salaam/Peace;

....My question is how much value has it in God's eyes, when somebody lives a 'good life' - but not willingly and out of submission to God, but only because s/he is forced to do so by the state law?

Most probably it's a hadith that says , if u want to do some good works but somehow can't do it , still u will get rewards for ur good intention . And if u want to do something bad but don't do it , no punishment for it :statisfie

God is kind . So , hopefully one won't get any punishment for not committing the sins ( does not matter why s/he did not do that ..because of the fear of Sharia law or whatever that is ) .

And God Almighty knows Best.
 
:sl:

... if a husband want to divorce his wife, he can say "I divorce you" anywhere, anytime, and the wife automatically becomes a widow.......


well , she is not a widow unless her husband dies . ummm can't remember the word - divorcee I guess.

divorcing need a trial process and must approved by the judge.
but if a husband pronounces the word talak and does not withdraw it in 3 months , still the marriage is valid ? Do all scholars agree with that ?

Most probably , in 1965 Pakistan Govt . made some changes in inheritance law. If a man dies when his father is still alive , grandsons and granddaughters will get the same share in property. This is a law now but can we say that this the correct Sharia law ?
 
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There is nothing blasphemous in saying that Shariah needs to be updated, for it is partly man-made is it not?

Maybe I am the only participant in this topic who agree with you.
Shariah need and possible to be updated. In fact, some rules in Shariah law has updated at least in my country.
Those are very profound statements. I have never heard Muslims say this. Thank you both for sharing.

And men - scholars - no matter how respected and eminent and pious they were, were still prisoners of their own times, and by extension, the prominent thoughts and customs which existed in those times.
Eliphaz, that's the most profound statement I have read in a while.
I think it still applies to us nowadays.
If only more (religious) people thought like this, we would hopefully be much more humble and carefully in voicing our own opinions, and be less proud in our conviction that 'we are right' and 'others are wrong' ...
 
Maybe I am the only participant in this topic who agree with you.
Shariah need and possible to be updated. In fact, some rules in Shariah law has updated at least in my country. In example, I found in old style Shariah law if a husband want to divorce his wife, he can say "I divorce you" anywhere, anytime, and the wife automatically becomes a widow. But this is not fair for the wife. So, in new style Shariah law if a husband want to divorce his wife, he must go to Shariah court. This divorcing need a trial process and must approved by the judge.

:sl:

Just because a country changes the laws, does it mean it really needs to be changed? I don't see why? Did Allah(swt) not say he has perfected for us this deen? Maybe in application it might differ to lets say at the Prophets(saw) time. Even I won't say that, as I'm not knowledgeable in the topic of Shariah Law. The Laws of Allah(swt) don't change. When you say updated, what exactly do you mean? Add and subtract like do people of other religions?? When it comes to talking about Islam, it could mean just about anything. So you should be specific :)

What's with the term "old" style and "new" style? Shariah is shariah.

Btw you're not widowed if you're divorced. As Muslim Woman said, you're a divorcee. You're a widow when your husband dies.

You also said it's unfair to the woman if the husband divorces her like that. What's the difference from then and now? Why would fairness change? The Laws sent by Allah(swt) don't change. Maybe you could be more specific in what you mean. It's possible I may be wrong?

:w:
 
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Islam cannot be secularised. Secularism is anti Islamic. States like Turkey are a total sellout. Muslims who want secularism are false. I would rather be ruled by the Taliban than a bunch of sell out secularist false Muslims. You may as well be ruled by the infidels.

I also agree.
 
I have never heard Muslims say this. Thank you both for sharing.
I've said this couple of times. Anybody who have even slight academic knowledge of sharia would know this. Btw, did you watch the lecture?
 
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Muslims nowadays are by no means unanimous on how Shariah can or should be implemented considering that, in my opinion, it does need to be updated or at least consolidated with the changes that have gone on in society as a whole, globalisation being a huge part.
you talk about update and changes yet you do not tell us what exactly are you talking about. I am still waiting for this:

@Eliphaz

before I respond to your specific comments, please define ijtihad for me because your definition seemed to be different from traditionalist definition. What kind of ijtihad you are talking about? According to you, what sort of changes do the Shari'ah require through ijtihad?

There is nothing blasphemous in saying that Shariah needs to be updated, for it is partly man-made is it not? And men - scholars - no matter how respected and eminent and pious they were, were still prisoners of their own times, and by extension, the prominent thoughts and customs which existed in those times.
bro, this is nothing but plain nonsense. You have yet to tell us what kind of updates you are talking about because 1) either your position is going to be plain batil or 2) due to lack of your knowledge you do not know that the Shari'ah already covers it. Hence, it needs no updates! Please enlighten us how Shari'ah is partly man-made?
 
Shariah need and possible to be updated.
enlighten us what kind of updates and why those updates?

Do you know anything about ramfication of tabdeel and istihlal in Islam?

But this is not fair for the wife.
Fear Allah ya akhee, inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raaji'oun! So for centuries Islam was unfair - the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them) practiced and preached unfairness? No one for centuries deemed this as unfair but now you people suddenly poped up after 14 centuries with such knowledge and wisdom that you could pin point the unfairness? Do you realize the ramification of your heretical statement? If I were you, I would offer two nafal rakaat immediately and cry in front of Allah.

secondly, you should know that in the Shari'ah, there are limitations on when a man can divorce her wife and there is guideline on how he should be doing it. For example, uttering all three divorces at once is a bida'a

Honestly, why do you people consider themselves as some sort of helpers and authorities in Islam while you have no clue about it?
 
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I just want to add, who are WE to change something already mandated by Allah(swt) and through the Beloved Prophet(saw)? Do you want to end up like the previous nations and like those who change parts of their religion? I would hope not. This is a really serious matter. You cant just dictate what you feel like. The Prophet(saw) said if we hold onto the Quran and Sunnah, we would never go astray. Saying that the Laws of ALLAH need updating means we are unhappy with Allahs decree. And to say the Laws of Allah azawajal needs updating means you're saying that His Laws are not perfect, when in fact they are. Like I said maybe in application, but this deen is for all times and part of our deen are the Laws of Allah(swt). This would too mean that these Laws are for all times.

:sl:
 
Now in Indonesia and Malaysia, a number of Muslim thinkers are trying to build an Islamic 'Madani' society. A Muslim society that live under moderate interpretation of sharia that applicable in modern life, that always respect to human right and can live together with non-Muslim in peace.

Sounds like suck up to kafirs to me, total heresy. Just because Allah's laws don't fit the American way doesn't mean you can bowdlerise the Qur'an by some sycophantic modernization! Please elucidate for me what "human rights" you think are not already expounded in the holy Qur'an?? The U.N definition of "human rights" is completely different and incompatable with the definition of it as stated under Islam. Many of the U.N definition of "human rights violations" aren't in fact actual violations at all; it's just that the infidels and their U.N abomination employ the term "violation" to blacken the nature of anything they DON'T LIKE. For example, they have made a problem of polygamy, child brides, child soldiers, child labour etc etc, where in fact these are NOT inherent human rights violations! So we must be very careful not to interpret at face value the kafir definition of "human rights" as if it were the very same as what Islam defines it. All Muslims must reject all kafir organizations such as the U.N, because the U.N is the enemy of Islam, it is a Zionist/communist global imperialist order. Sharia law is complete and perfect, and as someone else here said, it's not like some kind of computer software that can be "updated" from time to time, it is eternally faultless.
 
I didn't say shura = democratic elections. I simply said democracy is compatible with Islamic beliefs.

Absolute RUBBISH. Democracy is NOT compatible with Islam, it is a pagan anathema, and even its creators abandoned it as an unworkable system . The qur'an quite clearly states that there will be fitnah and oppression on earth and a great mischief and corruption if there is more than one khalifa in the whole Muslim world. (Sura 8. Al-Anfal part 10, 73.)
 
:sl:

There is no such thing as secular Islam. I think some of the brothers are under the illusion that Islam needs to change with the changing of time. Let me remind everyone that our primary sources for everything, including our most intimate, to personal, to formal affairs, are first and foremost and will always be the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). We cannot change our "interpretation" to suit our needs based on our times, we are not Christians and we did not make the straight path, Allah(swt) did.

Second, Islamic states always exerted the Sharia as the state law. In fact, the whole basis for a need of "modernized" Islam (according to some people), stems from the aversion of sharia from the so called Islamic states.

The first thing Muslims need is an Islamic state in which the sharia is implemented. THEN we can talk about consensus and what not, but our most prominent and severe problem is the lack of an Islamic state.
 
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:sl:

Thanks for your responses, brothers, sisters.

Insha Allah, I'll be back with my answer. But for this time I must explain I am not secularist even I am an anti-secularism. And if I have an opinion like that, that's because I have a dream, Muslims would live under Sharia.
 

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