Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

[Chechnya]

I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.

Your entitled to your opinion. Something tells me you dont know the first thing about him.

Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra

Obsession? :uuh:

No. He did admire him in his younger days whilst living in the communist Soviet state - when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.

 

[north_malaysian]

when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.

He's a convert?

 

[Chechnya]

Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.

 

[north_malaysian]

Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.

Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?

 

[Chechnya]

Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?

I dont think in any nation does everyone practise - Chechnya is probably like any other nation - some do, some dont.

Of course the war has increased the amount of people turning back to Islam.

 

[blunderbus]

Your Hero...From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

"Presumably, the attackers chose this particular day for maximum impact, knowing they could involve a greater number of children."

"Immediately after having gathered all the hostages in the gym, the attackers set about killing about twenty of the adult male hostages, reportedly the strongest in the group.[5][6] The attackers forced other hostages to throw their bodies out of the building and set some children to wash the blood off the floor."

"On day two, many of the young children started to succumb to being denied food and water and being forced to stand up for long periods in the tightly packed and hot gym. Many fainted and the parents feared they would start to die. Occasionally, the terrorists took out some of the unconscious children, and poured water on their heads before returning them to the gym. Reportedly, some resorted to drinking their own urine"

"...However, sexual impropriety allegedly did take place in the form of rape of several of the young children and adolescent girls whose cries and screams could be heard echo through the school according to some survivors.[11] This claim however is controversial, another hostage reports that there were so many shouts and screams that one could not possible distinguish one from others. Surviving hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reports that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them, and return them a few hours later.[12]"

"As the day and night wore on, the combination of stress and sleep deprivation—and possibly drug withdrawal[16])—made the terrorists increasingly hysterical and unpredictable. The crying of the children irritated them, and on several occasions children and their mothers were threatened that if they didn't stop crying they'd be shot"

"On September 17, 2004, Shamil Basayev issued a statement claiming responsibility for Beslan school siege,[27][28] saying his Riyadus-Salikhin "martyr battalion" had carried out this and other attacks, and further, that the attackers were in heaven and the killed hostages in hell."

What a great guy he was.

 

[blunderbus]

Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?

 

[Chechnya]

I know he is responsible for the deliberate cold blooded murder of young schoolchildren.

Something tells me you don't care about the deaths of innocents if they are not Muslims. The fact that you would consider such a man a hero says a lot about you.

Something tells me you believe everything bad you hear about Muslims regardless of whther it makes sense or not.

No. He is not responsible for the "deliberate" murder of children. Everything that happened in the school shows that the hostage-takers had no intention of blowing up the place - when the Russians stopped negotiating with them, did they blow up the place? No. That was never the plan. They did nothing they just waited until someone came to their senses and talked to them.

As for who killed most of the children - even Russian parents have come out and said that some of the "terrorists" helped them get out once the firefight started and many have also confimed their kids were shot at from the Russian side.

That brings us to the main point - why did they do it in the first place?

The answer is simple. Russias refusal to observe international law and its cold blooded murder of a 25% of Chechen citizens including about 30,000 children - where is your sympathy and condemnation for the murder oftens of thousands of Chechn children? Why talk about Beslan and not talk about what led to Beslan?

Having said all that - it still doesnt justify what happened in Beslan - it was a massive mistake.

Shamil Basayev recognised his role in it by offering to either go on trial after the war ended or handing himself over immediately to the Russians if the war was stopped.

So he offered to pay the price for what he did and not run away - even if the price was a death sentence.

Now, how man non-muslim leaders - who have murdered thousands of more children than i Beslan - will EVER make such an offer?

Will Bush offer to pay for the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghans? Will Olmert offer to pay for the dead Lebanese? Will Putin offer to pay for the hundreds of thousands of dead Chechens?

Something tells me, no.

Shamil basayev made a massive mistake - but unlike any other leader he offered to hand himself over and pay the ulimate price for it.

Your Hero...From Wikipedia

A friendly word of advice: dont use wikpedia as a source, you can find all sorts of rubbish, lies and half-truths.

If you are serious about finding out about Basayev and Chechnya in general then you i'll refer you to the many western journalists who covered the Chechen war from both sides and have met all the players in the war many times including Basayev.

Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?

Shamil Basayev also saved a hundred thousand lives in the first war ny defeating the rampaging russians and forcing them out of the country. Even the Americans were in love with him.
Shamil Basayev is a hero to some, maybe not to others (like your good self) - it all depends if you have any knowledege of him.
No-one supports Beslan but that doenst mean you dont support Basayev. An example: When the great Muslim leader Khalid bin Waleed (ra) committed a wrong action during war, the Prophet (saw) said " I am free of what Khalid did" - meaning he didnt support that action, condemned IT but not the person himself since Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) had learnt the wrongness of what he did.
Similarly most people dont support Beslan and are happy Shamil basayev recognised his massive error, offered to go on trial for it and pay in full - but dont distance themselves from his fight, only his wrong actions.

As for him being a "hero", just read about his military actions, bravery, skill against a vastly superior enemy - some even glorified by the American military for whom he became essential reading - to see why this is so. A flawed hero no doubt - mainly because of his inability to control his temper (unlike Aslan Maskhadov who was always cool) as he watched his people being wiped out - and that led him to extreme measures as Beslan.

Sorry for going on a bit. If you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask.

Salam

 

[Keltoi]

The terrorists didn't plan to blow up the building, but they rigged the gym with explosives anyway? There is no justification for what happened in Beslan. As much as I might sympathize with what has happened in Chechnya, the deliberate murder of hundreds of children puts these "martyrs" in the same category as those they believe are oppressing them. They are murderers, pure and simple. What happened in Beslan pretty much put an end to any international sympathy for the Chechens, and now Russia will have an easier time doing whatever it feels necessary.

 

[Keltoi]

You condemned Beslan and then stated it was the "international community's" fault that is happened. While I agree that more pressure should have been put on Putin to alter the conduct of the conflict, that in no way excuses or justifies the evil that occurred in Beslan. I understand that you aren't condoning what happened, but in a way you are justifying an evil act by pointing to the evil acts of another. I remember you comparing Shamil Basayev to William Wallace, who while much more brutal than the movie Braveheart would lead one to believe, would have never resorted to the slaughter of hundreds of children.

 

[Keltoi]

You must also admit that while Shamil Basayev is popular among the Islamic fighters in Chechnya, the civilian population feels trapped between Russian forces and the Islamic fighters. There isn't widespread Chechen support for these Islamic fighters either. Human Rights Watch has documented cases where Islamic fighters have launched attacks from civilian areas(sound familiar?), and refused to leave civilian towns when the people have asked them to do so.

 

[Hawa]

NOTHING justifies Beslan, get it? Anyone who had a hand in planning it or carrying it out is a monster.

agreed. That includes the murdering pillaging Russians and each and every one of us who remains silent while people are pushed to commit such horrendous acts. Now before you start your usual muslims are murderers speech I want to go on the records and say; yes we are!
Muslims are human after all, it seems silly for you to expect us to be killed and just sit there grinning from ear to ear. Its pathetic how you keep pinpointing muslims actions and never anyone elses..and its downright sick how you overlook the pains of muslims the world over and still have the nerve to question our actions.
Quite frankly I dont give a hoot about the Beslan children, and to put it bluntly neither do you. Im being honest..I could care less about them, after watching and reading world news for the past few hours..I couldnt care less about anything.
The only time I hear people mention massacres is when they want to point the finger at others, yes, Beslan happened, now what? why dont you try and get to the root of the problem? I believe Chechnya mentioned thousands of Chechen children were murdered. Did that stir you? do you give a damm? (purposefully misspelt)
answer anyone?
Im sick of everyone expecting muslims to "behave" while we're being slaughtered day in and day out. Wake up people, we live in a jungle as long as you harm a certain people, best believe they will harm you and yours.

It's simple, I want to know if the Muslim posters on this board consider Basayev a hero like Chechnya does. Is his opinion the norm or the minority?

hero? nope..
human? definately.

 

[Muezzin]

Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Any more will lead to severe infractions and this thread is currently on the verge of being locked.

 

[blunderbus]

"it seems silly for you to expect us to be killed and just sit there grinning from ear to ear."
As I stated before, I do not expect that. (Have I criticized the Chechen resistance as a whole? No I have not.) I have critized the idea that a person who has admitted to slaughtering over a hundred small children is someone who should be looked too as a hero.

"Now before you start your usual muslims are murderers speech"
Most Muslims are not murderers, but Basayev is.

"The only time I hear people mention massacres is when they want to point the finger at others, yes, Beslan happened, now what?"
I didn't bring it up. The thread is about the idolization of the man who is responsible for Beslan.

 

[blunderbus]

Most Muslims are not murderers, but Basayev WAS. (typo)

 

[Chechnya]

No doubt you wanted the genocide of the Chechn nation to continue - Basayev stopped it - when all the world turned away and left them to die. Gotta love the fella! :thankyou:

 

[blunderbus]

Maybe one day when you have children of your own then you will understand.

Maybe they will give you the humanity to realize that someone who deliberately slaughters the precious little ones is never to be idolized.

I hope one day you will learn to appreciate all innocent human life. This isn't about Muslim vs non Muslim, it's a shame you can't see that.

I got this from the thread "Posting in the World Affairs Section - 05-16-2006"

"No praise of, condoning of, or calls for violence or other unislamic behaviour will be tolerated whatsover on the forum."

I would like a clarification. Was Mr. Basayev's behavior "islamic"? It certainly was violent. Isn't calling someone a "hero" condoning their acts?

I'm still waiting to hear from the administrators. Was mr. Basayev's behaviour "islamic" or not. I would really like to know. Does the "religion of peace" condone the butchering of hundreds of little children?

I couldn't get the admin's interested so I looked it up myself.
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=2437&ln=eng&txt=killing children

"...is absolutely not permitted to mutilate the dead; nor to kill a child;"

"Only a criminal with a heart harder than a stone which has no mercy, does not know Allaah, and does not believe in the hereafter would do such acts. It is not even possible for a sane person to believe that such a person is a Muslim. This is a fact that can't be hidden even if the person is disguised in Muslim clothing and grows a beard."

So Shamil Basayev was NOT a great hero to the Muslim world. He wasn't even a true Muslim. He didn't know Allah and he didn't believe in the hereafter. He was a CRIMINAL in EVERY sense of the word!

Am I missing something? Tell me if I am.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I'm still waiting to hear from the administrators. Was mr. Basayev's behaviour "islamic" or not. I would really like to know. Does the "religion of peace" condone the butchering of hundreds of little children?

:rollseyes

You forget the sanctions on Iraq.

 

[blunderbus]

You didn't answer my question.

Was Basayev's behavior islamic? And if it isn't why do you allow praise for him on the board? Isn't that a violation of the posted rules?

Why is it so difficult to find one single Muslim on this board who will condemn an admitted mass child murderer?

You want to attack me or change the topic, ANYTHING to avoid dealing with the subject.

I would have thought that Basayev's behavior was un-islamic, but considering the attitude on this board I'm beginning to wonder.

 

[blunderbus]

I've completely run out of patience.

I have no more patience for the barbarity and lack of humanity shown by SOME of the posters.

I have no more patience for the administrators who will not enforce their own rules.

I came to this board to learn about Islam and I have. I wont be posting or coming here anymore.

I truly pray that none of your precious little children are ever in the hands of someone like Basayev, even though I know you wont return the favor for my little ones.