Sharia law - do you really want it?

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Gossamer skye said:
excellent and very comprehensive thread on alleged intolerance.. and Islam and Apostasy.. for those interested in the real facts!

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/4738-islam-apostasy.html

:w:
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I will get back to you on this later when I have read you refs but one assumes that you are of the view that Professor Charfi, an expert on Islamic law does not know his facts. Instead you point to a source that states amonst other things the absurd notion "there are no apostate because if they left Islam they were never Muslims in the first place" - well if that is the best of facts you can bring to the argument I prefer to accept Professor Chafi's explanation. Goethe once said: Fools and clever people are both harmless. It is the half-crazy and the half-wise who are dangerous.
 
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Sharia law - do you really want it?

YES. Only Allah (Subhana WaTa'ala) know whats best for mankind as a whole.

FiAmaaniAllah
 
Hugo said:
I will get back to you on this later when I have read you refs but one assumes that you are of the view that Professor Charfi, an expert on Islamic law does not know his facts. Instead you point to a source that states amonst other things the absurd notion "there are no apostate because if they left Islam they were never Muslims in the first place" - well if that is the best of facts you can bring to the argument I prefer to accept Professor Chafi's explanation. Goethe once said: Fools and clever people are both harmless. It is the half-crazy and the half-wise who are dangerous.
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I will not touch upon all the facets already discussed in the link provided and a million others, but will state this much.
Islam isn't just a religion it is a complete political system. When/if an apostate wishes to denounce his/her faith (and I'll not dwell into OT laws) and prove you a hypocrite all around], but when someone leaves their religion, they usually do it in peace and no one cares they go on to live their lives.. there are many non-practicing folks in the world.. an apostate who is an enemy of the state and wishes to overthrow the govt. (this case being shari'a state) is then tried as any other traitor.. The fact that there is no Islamic state in the world explains why no one cares for an apostate of your alleged concerned over them... I have no idea whom 'prof sharfi' given your previous scholar ibn kalb from wiki, I'd say your sources are as shady and under-educated as you are? Anyone who wishes to learn proper Islam can do so, all they need is but a proper history book and proper teaching..

a traitor in the united states modern day is treated by the death penalty:

713330046798E805-1.jpg



clip_image002_007.jpg


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked...senberg-during-their-1951-trial-for-espionage


amazingly enough, if you knew one thing about Islamic history, you'd have seen apostates pardoned by the prophet himself.
I'll not dwell on whom you deem a scholar or not, you've already proven yourself an undereducated hypocrite.. you should also read up on apostasy laws on the OT might just make an Odin worshiper out of you ...

by the way thanks so much for the Goethe quote, you saved me a perfect apophthegm to describe your person as always kudos!~

all the best
 
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Gossamer skye said:
but when someone leaves their religion, they usually do it in peace and no one cares they go on to live their lives.. there are many non-practicing folks in the world..
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What about converts from Islam to another religion who openly practice?
 
Whatsthepoint said:
What about converts from Islam to another religion who openly practice?
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Funny you should ask, my sis in law a 'former Lutheran' has a dead beat mother, who has leeched off my bro for yrs. She told my bro. she is Muslim about five yrs ago and complained of her children and her husband who abandoned her, so he of course out charity given to those who are closest first, paid for her rent in a lovely complex by the ocean, food, medical care, visits, mind you her own son didn't even call and ambulance for her when she had her stroke. and her other son was stealing her social security checks.

Anyhow, because of the bad economy my brother's company had to file chapter 11 and he of course cut down on some of her lavish expenses though still food,shelter, medical care, so she decided to apostate.
My sis in law was distraught really, even my sis in law's other slightly decent brother was disgusted with the old lady (though he isn't a Muslim), when she went back to the church she managed a few checks from them by donations and they were all so happy to have her back hallelujah and 'praise the lawd'.. anyhow my brother told my sis in law in those exact words.. 'lahoum fi dounia ma3roof' which means to treat her in this world with respect as one would naturally give a mother..

anyhow the donations from the church ceased and two months ago, she calls my bro. to tell him she is a Muslim again..

I don't know what you personally think of such a woman, I am rather glad the christians have her, but nowhere did my ultra conservative ultra religious bearded bro. say let's have her head...

I hope that answers your Q?
 
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Gossamer skye said:
Funny you should ask, my sis in law a 'former Lutheran' has a dead beat mother, who has leeched off my bro for yrs. She told my bro. she is Muslim about five yrs ago and complained of her children and her husband who abandoned her, so he of course out charity given to those who are closest first, paid for her rent in a lovely complex by the ocean, food, medical care, visits, mind you her own son didn't even call and ambulance for her when she had her stroke. and her other son was stealing her social security checks.

Anyhow, because of the bad economy my brother's company had to file chapter 11 and he of course cut down on some of her lavish expenses though still food,shelter, medical care, so she decided to apostate.
My sis in law was distraught really, even my sis in law's other slightly decent brother was disgusted with the old lady (though he isn't a Muslim), when she went back to the church she managed a few checks from them by donations and they were all so happy to have her back hallelujah and 'praise the lawd'.. anyhow my brother told my sis in law in those exact words.. 'lahoum fi dounia ma3roof' which means to treat her in this world with respect as one would naturally give a mother..

anyhow the donations from the church ceased and two months ago, she calls my bro. to tell him she is a Muslim again..

I don't know what you personally think of such a woman, I am rather glad the christians have her, but nowhere did my ultra conservative ultra religious bearded bro. say let's have her head...

I hope that answers your Q?
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It doesn't.
 
Whatsthepoint said:
It doesn't.
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well there is really nothing I can do about that.. here is an apostate who now practices Christianity.. nothing has become of her for leaving Islam.. what more do you need?
 
Whatsthepoint said:
The US is not an islamic state.
A fatwa.
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indeed and no other place currently is either (which is actually a point the fellow upstairs fails to understand?).. plus I have already enclosed a long thread on what the conditions are for execution and why, and showed how it is very similar to western law when it comes to treason!


all the best
 
Gossamer skye said:
excellent and very comprehensive thread on alleged intolerance.. and Islam and Apostasy.. for those interested in the real facts!

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/4738-islam-apostasy.html

:w:
Click to expand...

Greetings respected Sky,

I have read through the link you provided and whereas I don’t want to open up old wounds I have copied below a couple of clips from that thread which I believe summaries the arguments for executing apostates. I have read them before and the argument about apostasy being akin to treason. That argument (I suggest) hinges on the existences of a ‘Muslim state’ which is mentioned in the clip below. The trouble I have with that is that whereas I could live with the suggestion that there was a form of ‘Muslim state’ in and around Mecca/Madina whilst a Caliph existed, that ended (I suggest) with the end of the Caliph. There was an interesting article posted earlier in this thread which suggested that such a state has never existed and will never exist . . . .http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2009/04/islamic-state-muslims-prophet. Would you agree with me that, as there is no Islamic/Muslim state there is no base upon which to argue that apostates can be executed for treason?


Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be. . . . .

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

Apostasy is defined as a Muslim making a statement or performing an action that takes him out of the fold of Islam. The punishment prescribed for it in the Sunnah is execution, and it came as a remedy for a problem that existed at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This problem was that a group of people would publicly enter into Islam together then leave Islam together in order to cause doubt and uncertainty in the hearts of the believers. The Qur’ân relates this event to us:
A group from the People of the Scripture said: ‘Believe in what came down upon those who believe at the beginning of the day, then disbelieve at the end of the day, so perhaps they might return from faith.
Thus, the prescribed punishment for apostasy was instituted so that apostasy could not be used as a means of causing doubt in Islam.

At the same time, the apostate is given time to repent, so if he has a misconception or is in doubt about something, then his cause of doubt can be removed and the truth clarified to him. He is encouraged to repent for three days.
 
Thinker said:
Greetings respected Sky,

I have read through the link you provided and whereas I don’t want to open up old wounds I have copied below a couple of clips from that thread which I believe summaries the arguments for executing apostates. I have read them before and the argument about apostasy being akin to treason. That argument (I suggest) hinges on the existences of a ‘Muslim state’ which is mentioned in the clip below. The trouble I have with that is that whereas I could live with the suggestion that there was a form of ‘Muslim state’ in and around Mecca/Madina whilst a Caliph existed, that ended (I suggest) with the end of the Caliph. There was an interesting article posted earlier in this thread which suggested that such a state has never existed and will never exist . . . .http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2009/04/islamic-state-muslims-prophet. Would you agree with me that, as there is no Islamic/Muslim state there is no base upon which to argue that apostates can be executed for treason?

.
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I disagree that such a state never existed it did in fact run exactly according to this prophecy with the exception of the very last portion:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]
​
however, technically there was an Islamic state until its dissolution with the last of the Ottomans, even if they may or may not have governed exactly by abiding to its laws.. but certainly there was a khilafah rashida and when the Hadith insha'Allah is fulfilled it will again return.

I skimmed over the fellow's articles save for the parts that mattered.. and I think the current state the umma is in is creating a schism, which is also a prophecy of the end dividing those who are truly Muslim from those who are wishy-washy -- I am not saying this fellow is, I don't know enough about him, but from the little I have read, he wants the easy way out!

all the best
 
Gossamer skye said:
lol.. how exactly does one practice publicly?

you go into the streets with a microphone? :D
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I know non-muslims can't preach their faith to others, so that would a apply to a muslim apostate.
But can a former Muslim who converted to sikhism start wearing a turban or a giant cross or something? Or do his or her prayers in public?
 
I know of Muslims from Egypt who were an 'Ankh'
ankh.jpg
-- an ornament doens't mean faith..and most christian holidays and symbols have pagan roots in them-- other than that I can tell your questions will soon border beyond my expertise.. I really couldn't tell you.. to me a public profession is like those organizations that plan to overthrow the govt. by whatever means...
 
Greetings,

Hugo said:
I quote:

Apostasy a crime?

"astonishing though it may seem, the ulema had no foundation in the Koran for their invention of this attack on the Freedom of conscience.. indeed, not only does no verse of the Koran suggest even indirectly that there should a crime or penalty; indeed the Holy Book states the exact opposite.
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It is important to note that when deriving evidence in Islam, we must look at the Qur'an and Hadeeth together, never exclusively. It is a major failing to solely rely on the Qur'an.

Professor Charfi goes on to say that there is nothing in the hadith except one incident involving a boy of 12 who is reputed to have heard the prophet say 'kill them' about apostate.
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Another important rule in understanding Islamic law is that the ambiguous (if that is an appropriate word) information is understood in light of the clear - not the other way round. Thus, I wonder how Professor Charfi would understand the following explicit Hadeeth (from the link given by sister Skye),

"Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud)

This proves to me that Apostasy is NOT a part of Islam and indicates that Sharia by its nature is therefore intolerant at least in this area.
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I think there is a misunderstanding here regarding what Shariah is. I recommend the following video which sheds light on this specific issue - it begins from 3:45 onwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1e0P4P3Rm0&feature=related

And I think the whole lecture (to be found on youtube) may very well be relevant to this thread.

Peace.
 
IHaveADream said:
Is it fair that according to sharia law, a muslim that leaves the religion should be killed.
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I think you should grant everyone here some courtesy given how much time was expanded the span of 30+ pages and read all that was written along with the links included? I mean a simple response is given already not two posts ago!


all the best
 
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