Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Hugo]

Salaam

Great post.

peace

Should I be surprised at a post that insults a contributor being called 'great' - the post contained no arguments and just invective

 

[Hugo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Honestly, as a Muslim woman I dont need a kafir to tell me Islam doesn't treat me well. I'm very much happy, thank you very much! And Hugo, with all due respect, you have much to learn

Well said
__________________
People of eman don’t enjoy life quite the same way as other people–they’re always busy doing something!!May Allah increase us all in our eman, and make firm our hearts on Islam. Ameen!

Well said

You can see my response above and again I say I am surprised that an insult is regarded as 'well said'.

It is also sad to see you suggest that non-Muslims don't have faith and accept God's grace and adhere to it and that is simply blindness or prejudice or both on you part. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing just that when they said 'we are not like other men, we are better"

 

[Hugo]

Hugo Women are considered equal in the sight of God when it comes to their beliefs and good deeds, but are given Differnt roles then men and there for we are not the same as each other. Each one must fulfill their role as humans
Equal means then same we do have similarity but not the same so cant be equal
The social roles assigned by the Shariah to man and woman within the family emanate from one simple but profound reality: the two are biologically and sexually different; only the woman can bear children. Other important psychological, physical and social differences follow from this. But even if, for the sake of argument, these other genuine difference are dismissed as having been ‘socially caused’, the reality of this biological and sexual difference is impossible t deny.
The sharia basically is being demonized in the world today and this is greatly due to ignorance and what the media has done to taint the image of muslims all around.

I have written about this is post 311. Of course men and women are different biologically but that alone CANNOT define one's role in society and even to suggest that is an absurdity. In any case WHY would a biological difference imply that the word of a woman is not as valuable as that of a man - their brains and rational powers are the same are they not?

If one goes down that route one is more or less saying a male doctor is twice as good as a female one, a male teacher is twice as good as a female one and so on descending into total nonsense.

If there is any tainting being done it is Muslims that are doing it, they are the ones who are saying women are less than men in every way except childbirth.

 

[Hugo]

salaam. first of all you yourself said that no country has sharia and then you gave Iran as an example so??????

"Indeed no country in the world applies all of Sharia" - Hugo

Sharia is not based on slavery??? tell me where slavery is legalised today??? maybe the factories of big corparations - sharia isnt based on slavery or oppresion - it was applied fairly throughout times - muslims history has always been far more plural and tolerant then any many cultures - there have been times of distrest but also times when it worked far better then any other system at its time

Comment by Hugo - I did not say or even suggest that Sharia is based on slavery. All I said was Sharia allows is and it is a very large section in Sharia. This prove that Sharia is not the timeless thing and much of it must be abandoned.

You CANNOT apply Sharia fairly because it has built into it are discriminatory aspects - it does not for example treat Muslims and Christians in the same way.

sharia is based on the protection of 5 things
- The deen (way of life Islam)
- life
-property
-Honour
-Intellect

Today its thanks to many factors why sharia or democracy can not be applied in the mid east or any other country - tyrant rulers and western interference has also distorted the middle east.

Comment by Hugo - agreed but is has NEVER been any different right from the start of Islam

1 - Men and women are not the same - so the sharia caters for each gender - the non muslim can live by there own law anyway in sharia state (a millet sytem during the Ottoman empire). - Jews especially prospered in spain and the Ottoman empire historically.

Comment by Hugo - I have written on this in post 311 and elsewhere and shown it to be a weak argument. Jews and others prospered of course but they were ALWAYS dhimmies, second class citizens. If it so great why are the number of Jews in Islamic countries now such a tiny few?

2 - give examples on the property law???

Comment by Hugo - I cannot, as I said I have been told this by a respectable Islamic lawyer

3 - other religions also regulated slavery in the past I dont think any scholar or muslim believes it can happen now - on the contarary slavery is no longer needed.

Comment by Hugo - so why is it still part of Sharia?

4 - Not a big issue in sharia when you look at the big pitcure

why are you inforcing your oppressive view on other people any way - your calling sharia oppressive and un equitable - muslims think otherwise - and who are you to telling muslims to have democracy what if the muslims dont want it.

Comment by Hugo - I am not as far as I know forcing my view on anyone, I have shown Sharia to discriminatory and therefore oppressive - if you think otherwise they show that my conjectures are wrong. For example, in YOUR Islamic state would I be able to give Bibles out in the street or preach openly about my faith?

learn about Iran an ex democracy and what the US did with it - western influence itself is Partially to blame for the lack of democracy - Noam Chomsky might be a good a person to read and Robert Fisk.

peace.

Comment by Hugo - I am well aware of the History of Iran and the parts Western powers played. But have YOU read recent Islamic history, have your read about the fact that 80 pregnant women have been executed there and countless others imprisoned? Try reading "We are Iran"by Nasrin Alavi for a start (ISBN 1-84627-001-4)

 

[saba muslimah]

I must say.. ALLAhuAkber..!!!

I agreed with his point...If there applied sharia Law

Originally posted by Abd-al-latif
...restrictions are these? The restriction from traveling alone so they may be safe from a man who intends harm to them? or is it men who complain about sexual abuse?

Is that she must veil herself and conceal her beauty so she may not be bothered by men who have a deseased heart?

Or is it that the husband has higher rights over his wife? I'm sure no man will ever feel appriceated if he has a rebelious wife.

Momin Knows..!!
Islam is not hard religion & never gives difficulty at anyways...

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

1 - I completely disagree at the time the rulers were better then any rulers at the time - this is preety narrow minded view - the Muslims were tolerant during the spainish and Ottoman period also the prophetic and Rightly guided period - Just saying that it was terrible in the start without giving any evidence is non sensical - there were many positives that can be taken up.
2 - ok????? - like who i know Ahmad Thompson?
3 - Is it still part of sharia???? Nobody is talking about having slavery in the sharia now. Give me evedince for this? Or is this like the property thing.
4 - Its a grey area with different opinions - not the biggest issue to solve

Status of Dhimmi is all Exaggerated - Ther Jews and chrstains can live in there own law Respectively - Just like any nation. Dhimmi is protected people under the sharia that the state is repsonsible for - like Minorities . -

Its good that you admit you have conjuctures so what is there to refute if you dont back stuff up with evidence.

In MY Islamic state you dont have to live there -

There are 20 million coptic chirstians in Egypt - Some in Syria, Jews in Yemen and Iran - But they what are they are miniorities. If its so bad why are they still there?

 

[Zafran]

Should I be surprised at a post that insults a contributor being called 'great' - the post contained no arguments and just invective

salaam

she told you the way it is - you have much to learn

peace

 

[Hugo]

salaam - she told you the way it is - you have much to learn

peace

That of course is true as I am always ready to learn but what about you or are you infected with the bug that says everyone but a Muslim has lots to learn?

It is sadly a common tactic in this board by some members to ditch answering a question in favour of a mild insult, telling them the words really mean something else and telling them they are just ignorant or sometimes all three.

 

[Hugo]

Salaam
1 - I completely disagree at the time the rulers were better then any rulers at the time - this is preety narrow minded view - the Muslims were tolerant during the spainish and Ottoman period also the prophetic and Rightly guided period - Just saying that it was terrible in the start without giving any evidence is non sensical - there were many positives that can be taken up.

Comment by Hugo - I think you are just ignoring history and events - Muslim history I mean. May I suggest Robert Spencer's book "The truth about Muhammad", ISBN 978-1-59698-5. But if you don't like that try "The life of Muhammad" (A translation) of Ibn Ishaq's sira ISBN 0-19-636033-1. Then let's see who is narrow minded?

2 - ok????? - like who i know Ahmad Thompson?

Comment by Hugo - sorry I don't quite know what the above refers to

3 - Is it still part of sharia???? Nobody is talking about having slavery in the sharia now. Give me evedince for this? Or is this like the property thing.

Comment by Hugo - I think you will find that the accepted position is that Islam = Sharia and Sharia = Islam. If you say Sharia then you mean all of it, you cannot pick and choose.I have never heard any other ;position advocated but would welcome such a position

4 - Its a grey area with different opinions - not the biggest issue to solve

Status of Dhimmi is all Exaggerated - Ther Jews and chrstains can live in there own law Respectively - Just like any nation. Dhimmi is protected people under the sharia that the state is repsonsible for - like Minorities . -

Comment by Hugo - you have said it all here 'a protected people' but living in dhimminitude, second class, having to pay a tax for their protection. How would you feel if in the UK for example, Muslims where a 'protected people' having to pay a tax to have that status and not be full citizens of the UK and never can be - do you want me to list all the other aspects of being a dhimmi?. Try reading "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance"ISBN 978-159102249-7. I think it is becomeing claer who 'has much to learn' don you?

Its good that you admit you have conjuctures so what is there to refute if you dont back stuff up with evidence.

Comment by Hugo - I have given you plenty of evidence in the books above and I am only stating what is understood to be in Sharia and that might be regarded as common knowledge. If we need to be precise perhaps we can agree on using "The reliance of the Traveller" as translated by Keller ISBN 0-915957-72-8

In MY Islamic state you dont have to live there -

Comment by Hugo - but what is I do live there and have lived there for centuries - Jews and Christians lived in Arabia for many centuries before Mohammed - do you know what happened to them?

There are 20 million coptic chirstians in Egypt - Some in Syria, Jews in Yemen and Iran - But they what are they are miniorities. If its so bad why are they still there?

Comment by Hugo - you do seem if I may say so a be more than a little blind to history and what is going on now. The cops want to stay there because it is their own country but they are a persecuted minority, persecuted by Muslims that is - do you agree with this persecution?

 

[GreyKode]

The copts want to stay there because it is their own country but they are a persecuted minority, persecuted by Muslims that is - do you agree with this persecution?

Can you give evidence to how copts are persecuted in egypt.

 

[burdenofbeing]

these are sad accusations.
one example that could be given would be jews. there would probably be a handful of jews in the world if it weren't for ottomans, who first gave them a place to live when in the whole world they were being oppressed, then in the end let the jews migrate to palestine.

they made jerusalem a possibility, in which christians jews and muslims lived next to each other in harmony. jews and christians trusted themselves to the muslim judgement rather than each other when they were offered the alternative.

also

>Jews and Christians lived in Arabia for many centuries before Mohammed - do you know what happened to them?
they either converted, or fought against the state and lost, or migrated away or are still there.

 

[Hugo]

these are sad accusations.
one example that could be given would be jews. there would probably be a handful of jews in the world if it weren't for ottomans, who first gave them a place to live when in the whole world they were being oppressed, then in the end let the jews migrate to palestine.

they made jerusalem a possibility, in which christians jews and muslims lived next to each other in harmony. jews and christians trusted themselves to the muslim judgement rather than each other when they were offered the alternative.

also

>Jews and Christians lived in Arabia for many centuries before Mohammed - do you know what happened to them?
they either converted, or fought against the state and lost, or migrated away or are still there.

What is sad here is that you seem to know so little about history and so end up with this kind of post. One reminder will do, in Medina before the time of the prophet there we many Jewish tribes and they had lived there for centuries.

Why don't you go and find out what happened to them after the prophet, an invited visitor arrived, and stop looking at Muslim history through tinted glasses.

 

[Hugo]

Can you give evidence to how copts are persecuted in egypt.

What would you consider as evidence? Your very question suggests that you don't believe it. Go an look at an atricle by Bat Ye'or as found most easily in a book called the "Myth of Islamic Tolerance" chapter 13 ISBN 978-159102249-7 you can get it from Amazon

 

[Hugo]

Salaam

1 - I completely disagree at the time the rulers were better then any rulers at the time - this is preety narrow minded view - the Muslims were tolerant during the spainish and Ottoman period also the prophetic and Rightly guided period - Just saying that it was terrible in the start without giving any evidence is non sensical - there were many positives that can be taken up.

Comment by Hugo - the Ottoman empire was run by oppression and slavery and Jews and Christians were second class citizens. Of course there were positives but it is rather negative to be treated as second class?

2 - ok????? - like who i know Ahmad Thompson?

Sorry cannot quite recall what this is about?

3 - Is it still part of sharia???? Nobody is talking about having slavery in the sharia now. Give me evedince for this? Or is this like the property thing.

Comment by Hugo - the normal position is that Sharia = Islam and Islam = sharia so one cannot pick and choose. If we use say "reliance of the Traveller" (Al-Misri) we can see what is there. The elements we have been talking about are common knowledge but the above book can be used if you wish ISBN 0-915957-72-8

4 - Its a grey area with different opinions - not the biggest issue to solve

Status of Dhimmi is all Exaggerated - Ther Jews and chrstains can live in there own law Respectively - Just like any nation. Dhimmi is protected people under the sharia that the state is repsonsible for - like Minorities . -

Comment by Hugo - you say it all 'protected people' but they had to pay for that as you know and were second class citizens - shall I list ALL the other aspects of being a Dhimmi. Dhimmi status exited until the colonial powers forced Muslim rulers to get rid of it in the 8th Century. See "the Myth of Muslim Tolerance" Isbn 978-1591-02249-7 if you want a fuller review. Ask yourself if you would have enjoyed being Dhimmi?

Its good that you admit you have conjuctures so what is there to refute if you dont back stuff up with evidence.

Comment by Hugo - I have listed some books and stated what is I think common knowledge

In MY Islamic state you dont have to live there -

There are 20 million coptic chirstians in Egypt - Some in Syria, Jews in Yemen and Iran - But they what are they are miniorities. If its so bad why are they still there?

Comment by Hugo - they are there because that is their home but they have been persecuted. The book I mentioned above given evidence for this

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

What would you consider as evidence? Your very question suggests that you don't believe it. Go an look at an atricle by Bat Ye'or as found most easily in a book called the "Myth of Islamic Tolerance" chapter 13 ISBN 978-159102249-7 you can get it from Amazon

do you really think we care what a Kaffar has to say about islam ask a muslim anout islam or look at source Hugo . Asking us to read a book about islam by an islam hater is not very wise of you ROBERT SPENCER say "traditional Islam contains violent and supremacist elements," and that "its various schools unanimously teach warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers," and there for shows us he knows nothing about islam you want to say just is violent you are entitled to your opinion we as muslims know the truth is islam and all other are astray and we pray that Allah guides us and you all next time show real evidence/proof its like me going to a muslim and asking him about Christianity would that work hmm this people who tell you islam is bad/evil/etc dont know much about islam who are your and our worst enemy? That would be the devils, whether they are human devils (evil people), or Jinn devils (like Iblis) The Arabic word for a devil is Shaytan (similar to Satan). Satan wants us all to go to hell. He wants us to be bad on earth, even if we get rich, or do lots of wrong things that we appear to enjoy, he does not mind that. But he wants to make sure we don't go to heaven.

 

[Hugo]

do you really think we care what a Kaffar has to say about islam ask a muslim anout islam or look at source Hugo. Asking us to read a book about islam by an islam hater is not very wise of you ROBERT SPENCER say "traditional Islam contains violent and supremacist elements," and that "its various schools unanimously teach warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers," and there for shows us he knows nothing about islam you want to say just is violent you are entitled to your opinion we as muslims know the truth is islam and all other are astray and we pray that Allah guides us and you all next time show real evidence/proof

Comment by Hugo - have you read Spenser's book? Every single authentic Muslim source he uses is listed. I quoted Ibn Ishaq as well and he is not always complementary either so was he a Kaffar. You ask for evidence but then dismiss it without any consideration - blind leading the blind?

So you don't know the truth and you are afraid to explore it, preferring a only a sanitised version of it?

its like me going to a muslim and asking him about Christianity would that work hmm this people who tell you islam is bad/evil/etc dont know much about islam who are your and our worst enemy?

Comment by Hugo - if the Muslim is expert and well read in Christianity why not? Non-Muslims can be expert in Islam and to say they cannot is absurd arrogance. One example, will do - Islamic scholars use a Arabic lexicon to make sure they understand Qu'ranic words - its was written by a non-Muslim - go and find out his name?

That would be the devils, whether they are human devils (evil people), or Jinn devils (like Iblis) The Arabic word for a devil is Shaytan (similar to Satan). Satan wants us all to go to hell. He wants us to be bad on earth, even if we get rich, or do lots of wrong things that we appear to enjoy, he does not mind that. But he wants to make sure we don't go to heaven.

I am unable to follow your rambling last comments to see what it might mean?

 

[burdenofbeing]

What is sad here is that you seem to know so little about history and so end up with this kind of post. One reminder will do, in Medina before the time of the prophet there we many Jewish tribes and they had lived there for centuries.

Why don't you go and find out what happened to them after the prophet, an invited visitor arrived, and stop looking at Muslim history through tinted glasses.

I am by no means an expert in history, but my wife is an academic historian. if you have any events to speak on, just bring it on. She would probably help you. I should mention at this point that, subjectivity doesn't and history don't go well.

I assume you are talking about beni qureyza? tell me what you are talking about and I'll put my argument forward.

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

I am unable to follow your rambling last comments to see what it might mean?

the last part was me answering my on Question about who is yours and our worst enemy and ill pass on reading the book thanks i know islam is perfect hope you see it soon

 

[Hugo]

I am by no means an expert in history, but my wife is an academic historian. if you have any events to speak on, just bring it on. I should mention at this point that, subjectivity doesn't and history don't go well.

I assume you are talking about beni qureyza? tell me what you are talking about and I'll put my argument forward.

Can I suggest as a location for basic details shall we say of the non-Muslim point of view are found in Spencer's book "The truth about Muhammad' ISBN 978-1-59698 as this sets out the arguments and gives the Muslim sources. The main points are set out in Chapter 7 and 8 mainly regarding the Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir.

That is a starting point from my position - I don't think there is any doubt about the facts but there is debate about the rational used by Mohammed. I take the view that Mohammed massacred or deported these Jews and that action was reprehensible and set a tone for killing and conquering for centuries.

Many have proposed to refute this book but none have done it so let see how you wife get's on with it.

 

[جوري]

I am not aware that I said Islam does not treat you well. I said Sharia allows you to be treated badly by any modern standard.

How is she or me or any Muslim sister treated 'poorly' by modern standards.. care to elaborate?

I also strongly object to being called kafir and as you must know the term is more like an insult when used in Arabic and I have never heard my Arabic friends uses the term about anyone, least of all me.

I am Arabic and the term isn't an insult, a kaffir is someone who isn't Muslim-- I'd think calling someone a Muslim is an insult to most kaffirs just seeing how random bloggers refer to 'Obama' in a derogatory fashion always using that term--- It depends on your perspective I think!

If your only response is to insult then that is hardly a worthy arguments is it? I agree I have much to learn; presumably you don't? I have read very widely on Islamic subjects and spent a lot of time working with Muslims and I have never been treated with anything but respect and friendship and and I think I therefore I know more than most.

Reading and befriending qualifies you as knowing more than most? what is the baseline you are starting at, just so we know

Of course democratic countries have issues and difficulties but at least they are open and honest about them. I suggest you look in your own mirror and see what a mess many Islamic countries are in - do I have to name them? There is a saying in English "there are none so blind as those who do not want to see".

And if you were truly more read and knowing than most and you simply took the time to browse this forum, you'd have concluded that no one (Muslim) on this board likes the current state in any of the alleged 'Islamic countries' .. thus your preferred adage might just come back and bite you..

all the best..