Sikhism
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Curaezipirid
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I like the statement that Sikh is truly a reference to a specific tribe rather than a variety of Religious practise that holds itself as distincly better than other.
In fact it is my belief that for any group of persons to be manifesting adherence to Qur'an while within an identity that is external to a Muslim identity, that there must have been at the outset an established Mujahideen tradition that was somehow forced to be portrayed as other than Islam.
Yet this raises that more general and more difficult question, that as Muslims we are obliged to represent our selves as Muslims. Perhaps we should regard the stories and Religious instruction from Sikhs, when relating their belief back into Islam, as an attempt at exactly that. Is it that Sikhs are at the forefront of forging the better relations between India and Pakistan that we are able to perceive? It is clearly the case in a television documentary recently seen in Australia, that the open Peace between the two countries is factually making an opener expression by good Muslims against the pop music industry more able to be asserted in an undercurrent of Islamic Faith. The fact that all India was once Muslim can not have been any other than the cause of major improvement in Hindu practise, and I believe that such needs to be considered as a more important function that the fact that many persons went back into Hindu practise.
But all these statements open more largely the discussion of why it is that within adherence to Qur'an there are differing forms of Islam, and how is it that we can be able to differentiate between an un-Islamic form of Religious practise that has stolen from Islamic teaching to enable shirk, a form of non-Islamic Religious practise that manifests benefits due to the influence of Islam, and a form of Religious practise that is disabled from portraying full Islam yet aspires to. But this is a question that perhaps deserves a thread all of its own so I shall start one called: Why variety of Human Response to Qur'an?
Thankyou.
In fact it is my belief that for any group of persons to be manifesting adherence to Qur'an while within an identity that is external to a Muslim identity, that there must have been at the outset an established Mujahideen tradition that was somehow forced to be portrayed as other than Islam.
Yet this raises that more general and more difficult question, that as Muslims we are obliged to represent our selves as Muslims. Perhaps we should regard the stories and Religious instruction from Sikhs, when relating their belief back into Islam, as an attempt at exactly that. Is it that Sikhs are at the forefront of forging the better relations between India and Pakistan that we are able to perceive? It is clearly the case in a television documentary recently seen in Australia, that the open Peace between the two countries is factually making an opener expression by good Muslims against the pop music industry more able to be asserted in an undercurrent of Islamic Faith. The fact that all India was once Muslim can not have been any other than the cause of major improvement in Hindu practise, and I believe that such needs to be considered as a more important function that the fact that many persons went back into Hindu practise.
But all these statements open more largely the discussion of why it is that within adherence to Qur'an there are differing forms of Islam, and how is it that we can be able to differentiate between an un-Islamic form of Religious practise that has stolen from Islamic teaching to enable shirk, a form of non-Islamic Religious practise that manifests benefits due to the influence of Islam, and a form of Religious practise that is disabled from portraying full Islam yet aspires to. But this is a question that perhaps deserves a thread all of its own so I shall start one called: Why variety of Human Response to Qur'an?
Thankyou.
AvarAllahNoor
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AvarAllahNoor, did you by any chance post that horrible message on my teacher's webite? I thought that all Sikhs were peaceful people until I saw that monstrosity filled with swearing, and talking about Sikhs kicking Muslims out of India? If not, I appologise, I just thought it might of been you because of the horrible things you said about my teacher (like calling him misguided etc).
Here's the message, but I will edit out all the swearing:
Again, if it wasn't you, please don't be offended from what I have said, you don't normally talk like that at all.
Well i'm gald you noticed it's not the way i type. But no, it's not me as i wouldn't insult a faith of another that's not what God has taught us.
The best thing to do is to ignore it ,as it does not represent the Sikhs in whole. That's just an irate Sikh no doubt! - I will say your teacher is out to cause outrage as some of the comments he makes about all other faiths are inflamatory!
AvarAllahNoor
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The Mogul rule and its relationship with Sikhism
In 1520, Babur attacked India. His troops killed innocent people, took women and children captive and looted their property. Guru Nanak sahib, who had already founded Sikhism and was preaching it all over India, challenged this act of barbarity in strong words. He was arrested along with the other captives. But soon after, he was released after Babur realized his blunder.
After this, Guru Nanak Sahib founded the city of Kartarpur (now in Pakistan) and spent the rest of his life there. After the death of Guru Nanak Sahib, his successor Guru Angad Sahib took over the leadership of the Sikh community. It is believed that Guru Angad Sahib enjoyed cordial relations with the Mogul rulers. Humayun, when defeated by Sher Shah Suri, came to the Guru to obtain his blessings to regain the throne of Delhi.
The third Guru, Guru Amardas Sahib, also maintained good relations with the Moguls. Once, Akbar had to eat at the Langar (free kitchen) before he could meet the Guru. Impressed by this, Akbar offered to grant some royal property to the Langar. Though Guru Amardas Sahib refused this, he was able to get Akbar to waive the toll on non-Muslim pilgrims crossing the Yamuna and the Ganga.
During the time when Guru Arjan Sahib was the Guru, Akbar read the Guru Granth Sahib created by him and commented, "The greatest Granth of synthesis, worthy of reverence".
The good relations between the Sikhs and the Moguls ended with the death of Akbar. Akbar's son Jehangir implicated Guru Arjan Sahib, the fifth Guru, and had him executed. This changed the view of the entire Sikh community towards Muslim rule.
The sixth Guru, Guru Hargobind Sahib was arrested and imprisoned by Jehangir for three years. On his release, he requested Jehangir to free the fifty-two Hindu princes who had been arrested on charges of treachery, on his personal surety. This request was acceded to, and it earned him the respect of Jehangir. It also changed Jehangir's outlook towards Sikhism.
After the death of Jehangir, this relationship changed drastically. Jehangir's son, Shah Jahan, did not take kindly to the Sikhs and ordered the destruction of all temples and Gurudwaras under construction. This created a lot of tension among the Muslim rulers and the Sikhs. Guru Hargobind Sahib fought five battles with the Moguls, all of which he won.
The seventh Guru, Guru Har Rai Sahib tried to maintain cordial relations with the Moguls. He helped Shah Jahan’s eldest son, Dara, escape from the bloody hands of Aurangzeb during the succession battle. He also sent medicines from his Ayurvedic centre that saved Dara’s life from an incurable illness. This was a period of cordial relations between the Sikhs and the Moguls.
The period of leadership of the tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, was the one that saw the most conflicts between the Moguls and the Sikhs. The execution of Guru Tegh Bahadur had enraged the Sikhs and they formed the Khalsa army to fight these external threats. The Moguls and the Sikhs engaged in numerous battles during these periods.
Guru Gobind Singh's relations with Bahadur Shah, the next Mogul emperor, were cordial and they even held meetings together. This did not go down well with several Mogul officials who plotted to have Guru Gobind Singh assassinated.There were so many battels against the Moguls. This does not mean Sikhs and Muslims have been enemies though as there are good and bad in all races/religions. Hindus too have been at logger heads with Sikhs today and in history. Gangu Brahman being one traitor!
AvarAllahNoor
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Also my teacher told me he has recently been receiving death threats from sikhs.
Well concocting up stories to make Islam stand out isn't going to gain popularity is it? Not that i condone any violence or threats made to another! -You would be advised to tell your teacher to ammend his comments on Sikhism as they are untrue brother!
Sikhs are peaceful but, we do draw the sword as a last resort!
AvarAllahNoor
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EVERY question has been answered, it's all in the thread but you refuse to scroll through it. I'm not going to continue to go around in circles!
Fishman
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Well then, what excactly did he concoct? When you posted that bit about him going into the fire, that wasn't exactly a concoction.
"There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 385)
"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)
this two verses indicates that "Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion"
salvation meaning paradise. So what is the point of sikhism if hinduism is correct when guru nanak says that theres only 1 god so how can the hindu who belive in more then one god be true. And if the following 2 verses are correct then what is the point of the religion sikhism as islam is correct and you should therefore inshallah be a musllim
also as sikhs belive in adam peace be upon him as a prophet then you should consider this verse as in accurate ""We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473)" because its indicate that person who has not been born without a mother is a god so is this indicating the same with prophet adam peace be upon him!?!?!!!!!
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AvarAllahNoor
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"There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 385)
"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)
this two verses indicates that "Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion"
salvation meaning paradise. So what is the point of sikhism if hinduism is correct when guru nanak says that theres only 1 god so how can the hindu who belive in more then one god be true. And if the following 2 verses are correct then what is the point of the religion sikhism as islam is correct and you should therefore inshallah be a musllim
Ok how do i convert? :rollseyes I'd never accept Islam or any other as my religion!
Hindus worship idols muslims fast etc they have no meaning to God so Sikhism was created by God!
AvarAllahNoor
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Well then, what excactly did he concoct? When you posted that bit about him going into the fire, that wasn't exactly a concoction.
Fire? When
AvarAllahNoor
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also as sikhs belive in adam peace be upon him as a prophet then you should consider this verse as in accurate ""We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473
This verse was provided by Guru Nanak for the benefit of Hindus who practice the ritual of sati - Cremating the wife alive if her husband dies. This shows the equality Guru ji show's amongst men and women and how they should be treated by men!
AvarAllahNoor
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lol you still havent answered this properly read it again
""There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 385)
"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)
this two verses indicates that "Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion"
salvation meaning paradise. So what is the point of sikhism if hinduism is correct when guru nanak says that theres only 1 god so how can the hindu who belive in more then one god be true. And if the following 2 verses are correct then what is the point of the religion sikhism as islam is correct and you should therefore inshallah be a musllim"
and your answer is "Ok how do i convert? I'd never accept Islam or any other as my religion!
Hindus worship idols muslims fast etc they have no meaning to God so Sikhism was created by God!" now your going against what your granth is telling you that islam is the right religion as is the way for salvation so why be a sikh then if islam can get you to salvation heck i could then make my own religion and get to salvation.
but further more you and me had a little debate and you and i said this:
"Originally Posted by imran_c
if sikhism was created by god what was before sikhism then explain that
God give me strength!
Other religions. - Who made them?"
your going against the verse i posted but ill answer your question inshallah :
"He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.
chapter 42 verse 13
""There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 385)
"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)
this two verses indicates that "Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion"
salvation meaning paradise. So what is the point of sikhism if hinduism is correct when guru nanak says that theres only 1 god so how can the hindu who belive in more then one god be true. And if the following 2 verses are correct then what is the point of the religion sikhism as islam is correct and you should therefore inshallah be a musllim"
and your answer is "Ok how do i convert? I'd never accept Islam or any other as my religion!
Hindus worship idols muslims fast etc they have no meaning to God so Sikhism was created by God!" now your going against what your granth is telling you that islam is the right religion as is the way for salvation so why be a sikh then if islam can get you to salvation heck i could then make my own religion and get to salvation.
but further more you and me had a little debate and you and i said this:
"Originally Posted by imran_c
if sikhism was created by god what was before sikhism then explain that
God give me strength!
Other religions. - Who made them?"
your going against the verse i posted but ill answer your question inshallah :
"He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.
chapter 42 verse 13
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Fishman
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You convert by believing in 'there is no god but God and Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger of God', then saying it in Arabic. Then you take a full shower.
I agree that idols are nothing, but fasting is meaningful. It increases your faith, helps train you to be restraintful, helps you be kind to others and helps you understand more the position of those who don't have enough food and are hungry all the time. And since you are doing something (or not doing something in the case of fasting) for the sake of Allah, then you are doing an act of worship.
but avarnoor please go back tomy post and read it carefully.
AvarAllahNoor
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You convert by believing in 'there is no god but God and Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger of God', then saying it in Arabic. Then you take a full shower.
I agree that idols are nothing, but fasting is meaningful. It increases your faith, helps train you to be restraintful, helps you be kind to others and helps you understand more the position of those who don't have enough food and are hungry all the time. And since you are doing something (or not doing something in the case of fasting) for the sake of Allah, then you are doing an act of worship.
Sikhism is based on the one God, so i don't need to convert in-order to be accepted by God!
"I observe neither Hindu fasting nor the ritual of the Muslim Ramadan month; Him I serve who at the last shall save. The Lord of universe of the Hindus, Gosain and Allah to me are one; From Hindus and Muslims have I broken free. I perform neither Kaaba pilgrimage nor at bathing spots worship; One sole Lord I serve, and no other. I perform neither the Hindu worship nor the Muslim prayer; To the Sole Formless Lord in my heart I bow. We neither are Hindus nor Muslims; Our body and life belong to the One Supreme Being who alone is both Ram and Allah for us." Guru Arjan, Guru Granth Sahib, Raga Bhairon page 1136