ISDhillon
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ISDhillon
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Soldier 2000 Ji:hiding:
"Hence you promote actions such as be-heading etc- "
you failed to see the context with which that was wrtten in,
"1 - Falsify the religion- how is that consistent with the following comments you have made in another thread-"
no i was just being sarcastic but i have discussed the nature of the sikh viewpoint on justice on the thread go have a read then advise.
"What do you mean by its OK to make up religions, if the religion is false, in what way is it OK? "
truth does not have an opposite so then how can anyhthing be false just your perception is wrong, truth is divine essence ie, god and soul and naam.
"2- Imply that it’s an evil act, when you don’t even believe murder is evil"
i was trying to use words which help familiarise the audience to the nature of my assertion its called adapting to your audience.
"By accepting contradictions (Falsehood) as the truth, you violate the law of non contradiction, and you have the audacity to make comments such as “mind is what is blocking us from the truth”
By denying the law of Non contradiction, you are in no position to engage in debates with any one who has a healthy mind; you might as well stop all written, verbal communications now!"
these 2 comments show you did not understand sikhism as i described, the law of non-contradiction was used in science it was never to be used for the nature of god, i have proven this to you in the earlier response i am still waiting for you to counter-argue that, your assertion that by denying the law i am in no position to debate would be true if i considered the nature of god to be the mind but i do not, i consider god to be outside the remit of logic and rational inquiry if you are a scholar who has perhaps always held on to the infallibility of the law of non-contradiction this will be a blow to your ego and I hope you will understand your arguments flawed but if however you can proove that the law of non-contradiction can be applied to the nature of an incomprehensible god then please post here i am eagerly waiting in anticipation, you wont be able to though i am confident of that and at the same time humble.
ISDhillon
kay:
"Hence you promote actions such as be-heading etc- "
you failed to see the context with which that was wrtten in,
"1 - Falsify the religion- how is that consistent with the following comments you have made in another thread-"
no i was just being sarcastic but i have discussed the nature of the sikh viewpoint on justice on the thread go have a read then advise.
"What do you mean by its OK to make up religions, if the religion is false, in what way is it OK? "
truth does not have an opposite so then how can anyhthing be false just your perception is wrong, truth is divine essence ie, god and soul and naam.
"2- Imply that it’s an evil act, when you don’t even believe murder is evil"
i was trying to use words which help familiarise the audience to the nature of my assertion its called adapting to your audience.
"By accepting contradictions (Falsehood) as the truth, you violate the law of non contradiction, and you have the audacity to make comments such as “mind is what is blocking us from the truth”
By denying the law of Non contradiction, you are in no position to engage in debates with any one who has a healthy mind; you might as well stop all written, verbal communications now!"
these 2 comments show you did not understand sikhism as i described, the law of non-contradiction was used in science it was never to be used for the nature of god, i have proven this to you in the earlier response i am still waiting for you to counter-argue that, your assertion that by denying the law i am in no position to debate would be true if i considered the nature of god to be the mind but i do not, i consider god to be outside the remit of logic and rational inquiry if you are a scholar who has perhaps always held on to the infallibility of the law of non-contradiction this will be a blow to your ego and I hope you will understand your arguments flawed but if however you can proove that the law of non-contradiction can be applied to the nature of an incomprehensible god then please post here i am eagerly waiting in anticipation, you wont be able to though i am confident of that and at the same time humble.
ISDhillon
kay:Soldier2000
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Everything you have said so far is false!
Mohsin
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Hi ISDhillon
Thank you for the post, it's been good, but from it i have several questions that i don't understand
1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?
2) What does it mean by when it says
Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?
3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it
4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way
Thank you for the post, it's been good, but from it i have several questions that i don't understand
1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?
2) What does it mean by when it says
Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?
3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it
4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way
ISDhillon
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Satsriakal Moss ji
1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?
We believe in the existence of all of those which came to pass the reason for their purpose only god can know and we cannot question gods will.
2) What does it mean by when it says
Quote:
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.
He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.
Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.
Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?
When your religion was established there were many poor and rich people who became muslims many were inspired by the revelation many were inspired by the charismatic nature of your prophet many kings became muslims when a king became a muslim so too did all those who lived on there lands. In my personal opinion when I read that part I see it as referring to man as a sovereign being and that the god given form is as it is their is no reason to mutilate any part of the body as we are all kings. But when we come under the weight of societal laws morality no longer becomes an indicidual effort and you lose your god-given sovereignty as a human being who is born as god has intended.
3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it
The guru is not saying that your prophet did not bring people to the oneness of god he is saying that the firmness of naam was not given its due by the messenger instead the moral aspect of the revelation ruled the roost, guru nanak made attention to this part of Koran sura 24 in the Koran goes under the name of mishkatul-anwar
God is the Light of the heavens and earth.
The similitude of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp.
And the lamp is within a glass.
And the glass, as it were a pearly star.
This lamp is lit from a blessed tree.
An olive neither of the east nor of the west;
Almost this oil would shine though no
fire touched it.
Light upon Light, God guideth whom He will to His Light,
And He speaketh in parables to men, for He knoweth all things.
The light which guides man is naam but these parts of the revelation have been given no consideration by muslims. In Sufism they have extracted many concepts similar to Sikhism from the Koran to understand the path of naam I think they refer to naam as Ism-e-A’zam’ and the satguru is referred to as Kamil-murshid. This is some more info I got of the web about islam and self realisation: Creation comprises of 1. Nasut (Material region) 2. Malkut or Musalli (Astral) [Ruler: Khuda] 3. Jabrut (Causal) [Ruler: Allah] 4. Lahut, Hahut & Hutalhut (two Supra-causal regions with an intermediate region) [Rulers: Rabb & Anahu] & 5. Haq (Truth) [Ruler: al-Haqq]. Likewise, their practices comprises of: 1. ‘Zikr’ (remembrance), 2. ‘Tasawwur’ (concentration) & 3. ‘Shughal’ (inner listening) covering stages of: 1. ‘Shari’a’: rules for external conduct, 2. ‘Tariqat’: path of purity and remembrance leading to contact with Kalma at the ‘Nuqta-e-Suwaida’ (Third Eye), 3. ‘M’arfat’: inner path leading to communion with the Lord & 4. ‘Haqiqat’: "fana-fil-Sheikh" (merger with Murshid) or self-realization leading to "fana-fil-Allah" (merger with the Lord).
4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way
the simple reason is that people went astray from the core message and at that time god did what he did in my personal opinion out of mercy because life was a living torment prior to guru nanaks coming, I cannot know the will of god I can only accept it otherwise my questions will never stop. I will show you again how the guru suggests muslims have strayed from dharma:
(Ang 140)
imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
mihur museeth sidhuk musulaa huk hulaal kuraan
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
srm suMniq sIlu rojw hohu muslmwxu ]
surum sunnath seel rojaa hohu musulumaan
Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.
krxI kwbw scu pIru klmw krm invwj ]
kurunee kaabaa such peer kulumaa kurum nivaaj
Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. qsbI sw iqsu BwvsI nwnk rKY lwj ]1]
thusubee saa this bhaavusee naanuk rukhai laaj
Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor.
Guru Nanak Dev Jee has made it crystal clear in this Shabad to become a pure Muslim or a pure minded being; virtuous living is of highly importance.
(Ang 141)
pMij invwjw vKq pMij pMjw pMjy nwau ]
punj nivaajaa vukhuth punj punjaa punjae naao
There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
pihlw scu hlwl duie qIjw KYr Kudwie ]
pehilaa such hulaal dhue theejaa khair khudhaae
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
cauQI nIAiq rwis mnu pMjvI isPiq snwie ]
chouthee neeath raas mun punjuvee sifath sunaae
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
krxI klmw AwiK kY qw muslmwxu sdwie ]
kurunee kulumaa aakh kai thaa musulumaan sudhaae
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
nwnk jyqy kUiVAwr kUVY kUVI pwie ]3]
naanuk jaethae koorriaar koorrai koorree paae
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood.
ISDhillon
1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?
We believe in the existence of all of those which came to pass the reason for their purpose only god can know and we cannot question gods will.
2) What does it mean by when it says
Quote:
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.
He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.
Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.
Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?
When your religion was established there were many poor and rich people who became muslims many were inspired by the revelation many were inspired by the charismatic nature of your prophet many kings became muslims when a king became a muslim so too did all those who lived on there lands. In my personal opinion when I read that part I see it as referring to man as a sovereign being and that the god given form is as it is their is no reason to mutilate any part of the body as we are all kings. But when we come under the weight of societal laws morality no longer becomes an indicidual effort and you lose your god-given sovereignty as a human being who is born as god has intended.
3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it
The guru is not saying that your prophet did not bring people to the oneness of god he is saying that the firmness of naam was not given its due by the messenger instead the moral aspect of the revelation ruled the roost, guru nanak made attention to this part of Koran sura 24 in the Koran goes under the name of mishkatul-anwar
God is the Light of the heavens and earth.
The similitude of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp.
And the lamp is within a glass.
And the glass, as it were a pearly star.
This lamp is lit from a blessed tree.
An olive neither of the east nor of the west;
Almost this oil would shine though no
fire touched it.
Light upon Light, God guideth whom He will to His Light,
And He speaketh in parables to men, for He knoweth all things.
The light which guides man is naam but these parts of the revelation have been given no consideration by muslims. In Sufism they have extracted many concepts similar to Sikhism from the Koran to understand the path of naam I think they refer to naam as Ism-e-A’zam’ and the satguru is referred to as Kamil-murshid. This is some more info I got of the web about islam and self realisation: Creation comprises of 1. Nasut (Material region) 2. Malkut or Musalli (Astral) [Ruler: Khuda] 3. Jabrut (Causal) [Ruler: Allah] 4. Lahut, Hahut & Hutalhut (two Supra-causal regions with an intermediate region) [Rulers: Rabb & Anahu] & 5. Haq (Truth) [Ruler: al-Haqq]. Likewise, their practices comprises of: 1. ‘Zikr’ (remembrance), 2. ‘Tasawwur’ (concentration) & 3. ‘Shughal’ (inner listening) covering stages of: 1. ‘Shari’a’: rules for external conduct, 2. ‘Tariqat’: path of purity and remembrance leading to contact with Kalma at the ‘Nuqta-e-Suwaida’ (Third Eye), 3. ‘M’arfat’: inner path leading to communion with the Lord & 4. ‘Haqiqat’: "fana-fil-Sheikh" (merger with Murshid) or self-realization leading to "fana-fil-Allah" (merger with the Lord).
4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way
the simple reason is that people went astray from the core message and at that time god did what he did in my personal opinion out of mercy because life was a living torment prior to guru nanaks coming, I cannot know the will of god I can only accept it otherwise my questions will never stop. I will show you again how the guru suggests muslims have strayed from dharma:
(Ang 140)
imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
mihur museeth sidhuk musulaa huk hulaal kuraan
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
srm suMniq sIlu rojw hohu muslmwxu ]
surum sunnath seel rojaa hohu musulumaan
Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.
krxI kwbw scu pIru klmw krm invwj ]
kurunee kaabaa such peer kulumaa kurum nivaaj
Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. qsbI sw iqsu BwvsI nwnk rKY lwj ]1]
thusubee saa this bhaavusee naanuk rukhai laaj
Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor.
Guru Nanak Dev Jee has made it crystal clear in this Shabad to become a pure Muslim or a pure minded being; virtuous living is of highly importance.
(Ang 141)
pMij invwjw vKq pMij pMjw pMjy nwau ]
punj nivaajaa vukhuth punj punjaa punjae naao
There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
pihlw scu hlwl duie qIjw KYr Kudwie ]
pehilaa such hulaal dhue theejaa khair khudhaae
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
cauQI nIAiq rwis mnu pMjvI isPiq snwie ]
chouthee neeath raas mun punjuvee sifath sunaae
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
krxI klmw AwiK kY qw muslmwxu sdwie ]
kurunee kulumaa aakh kai thaa musulumaan sudhaae
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
nwnk jyqy kUiVAwr kUVY kUVI pwie ]3]
naanuk jaethae koorriaar koorrai koorree paae
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood.
ISDhillon
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
:salaam: to my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Over the years I have read many threads like this, on many Islamic forums, where they claim to actively, wanting to learn, but it’s really quite the opposite. (Most are run by immature minded kids who “think” they know what they are talking about, but in fact are just repeating somebody else’s words”)
Hence I put forward my offer to any Good Muslim brother or sister.
If you genuinely want to "learn" about Sikhism, then please ask questions and accept the answers.
Sikhism is a completely different to Islam, this is a fact, as is Islam different to Sikhism.
We have no problem with Islam or its teachings, if you are a Muslim, then by all means all power to you my brothers and sisters.
Why spend your time here speaking filth from your mouth, clearly when that mouth which Allah has given to you should be used to speak of his praises?
Why spend your minds energy to think of ways to put people down, when you should be putting that mind to use by concentrating on Allah and how to serve Allah better?
BUT, if you want to slander, then please keep on your side of the grass, for if you step over you will fall back without your head intact. (Metaphorically speaking that its. ;o) )
It is extremely EASY to sit behind a PC and talk filth. Why not we meet in person to talk about how great Allah is?
So if there is anybody who wishes to learn, then please go ahead, ask, respect and accept, otherwise we can come down to your level as well. As the Americans say, “bring it on”.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
Take care brothers and sisters, as I always do, I shall do Ardas that Allah may bless you with wisdom and may you become Khalis Muslims.
eace:
Unbreakable.
:salaam: to my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Over the years I have read many threads like this, on many Islamic forums, where they claim to actively, wanting to learn, but it’s really quite the opposite. (Most are run by immature minded kids who “think” they know what they are talking about, but in fact are just repeating somebody else’s words”)
Hence I put forward my offer to any Good Muslim brother or sister.
If you genuinely want to "learn" about Sikhism, then please ask questions and accept the answers.
Sikhism is a completely different to Islam, this is a fact, as is Islam different to Sikhism.
We have no problem with Islam or its teachings, if you are a Muslim, then by all means all power to you my brothers and sisters.
Why spend your time here speaking filth from your mouth, clearly when that mouth which Allah has given to you should be used to speak of his praises?
Why spend your minds energy to think of ways to put people down, when you should be putting that mind to use by concentrating on Allah and how to serve Allah better?
BUT, if you want to slander, then please keep on your side of the grass, for if you step over you will fall back without your head intact. (Metaphorically speaking that its. ;o) )
It is extremely EASY to sit behind a PC and talk filth. Why not we meet in person to talk about how great Allah is?
So if there is anybody who wishes to learn, then please go ahead, ask, respect and accept, otherwise we can come down to your level as well. As the Americans say, “bring it on”.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
Take care brothers and sisters, as I always do, I shall do Ardas that Allah may bless you with wisdom and may you become Khalis Muslims.
eace:Unbreakable.
Mohsin
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broWe do like to sing praises of allah, but we also like bringing people to the true path of Allah in our eyes. You obviously dont think this is true so fair enough, but since this is an islamic forum, and we want to spread the teachings of islam to others, and since these other sikh bros came onto this forum, they are bound to be given da'wah
Salam alaicom
in the Quran, we are taught Prophets (as) were sent to all people in all times
irfan - tawasuf is one of the teachings in the Quran and Sunna, ISDhillon quoted a verse in the Quran that pertains to these teachings
"Who knows himself, knows God" "Seek knowledge even if you have to go to China, for it is knowledge of the self", etc, was a one of the messages conveyed by Mohammad (saw)
The holy spirit could have two interpetations, I have a different interpetation, it acknowledges that Jibrael (as) is it but in the degree of Angelic realm, but he is not the definition of it, the spirit of command in the infallible humans is higher then the Angelic realm, it is a spiritual realm beyond theirs including Jibrael (as) and the Quran refers to this as "they ask you about the spirit, say it is the command of my lord and you have been given only little knowledge of it" (suratal Isra)
my suggesting to shiekhs is not to take what some less-informed muslims and scholars have to say about the teachings of Islam, but see the books of great arifs like Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani and Khomeini and they will point you to some overlooked verses of the Quran and hadiths
Sikhs to me seem that they however only want to focuss on this aspect of the message of the Prophets (as) and ignore all other aspects of life, such as social and political aspects
The Quran and the Sunna deal with all aspects, and deal with them in a detail way that nothing can be added or nothing can be missing, their is nothing beyond the first 6 verses of suratal hadeed and suratal tawheed/ikhlass according to report from Imam Sajad (as)
57:1-2
Whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares the glory of Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
He is the First and the Last and the Outward and Inward, and He is Cognizant of all things.
The verse 57:2 is a teaching of the Quran, however it is not the only teaching, the parable of light of the Quran in the chapter of light is the goal of shariah and the social and political aspects of the message, which is perhaps why some of the social laws dealing with fornication and the law of hijaab is found in the chapter of light along with the parable of light, and the strict social rulings are the introduced in the begining of the chapter
To say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't focuss on this aspect in detail is not a totally unfair statement, however it is not totally accurate and in a way is unfair
while the deep teachings of marifatal nafs and mystical aspects of Quran were not taught to all people, they were taught to some of his special companions like Salman Farsi (as) and in full detail to his holy family, more particullarily Ali (as)
He (saw) then said "I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is it's gate, so who wants the knowledge and wisdom, should come by it's gate", and all spiritual lines of spiriutal teachings (sufi and irfan lines) with exception of one go back to Ali (as)
However, Islam has come for all levels of mankind and deals with all levels and aspects of mankind, which include social and political aspects of society
Sikhhs perhaps do not understand the link of politics and social aspects with the spiritual aspects, this is where we differ, if you read supplication arafa of the grandson of Mohammad (saw), Imam Hussain (as), and the whole event of aushura, perhaps you will begin to see the link
To get a taste of some of the spiritual aspects in our religion, I will post some supplications from his holy family (as)
http://al-islam.org/sahifa/dua80.html
The whispered prayer of the knowers
In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate
1 My God,
tongues fall short of attaining
praise of Thee proper to Thy majesty,
intellects are incapable of grasping
the core of Thy beauty,
eyes fail before gazing
upon the glories of Thy face,
and Thou hast assigned to Thy creatures
no way to know Thee
save incapacity to know Thee!
2 My God,
place us among those
within the gardens of whose breasts
the trees of yearning for Thee have taken firm root
and the assemblies of whose hearts
have been seized by the ardour of Thy love!
They seek shelter
in the nests of meditation,
feed upon the gardens
of nearness and disclosure,
drink from the pools of love
with the cup of gentle favour,
and enter into the watering-places
of warm affection.
The covering has been lifted
from their eyes,318
the darkness of disquiet has been dispelled
from their beliefs and their innermost minds,
the contention of doubt has been negated
from their hearts and their secret thoughts,
their breasts have expanded
through the verification of true knowledge,
their aspirations have ascended
through precedent good fortune in renunciation,
their drinking is sweet
from the spring of devotion to good works,
their secret thoughts are delicious
in the sitting-place of intimacy,
their minds are secure
in the place of terror,
their souls are serene
through the return to the Lord of lords,319
their spirits have reached certitude
through triumph and prosperity,
their eyes have been gladdened
through gazing upon their Beloved,
their settling place has been settled
through reaching the request and attaining the expectation,
and their commerce has profited
through the sale of this world for the next!
3 My God,
how agreeable for hearts are
the thoughts inspiring Thy remembrance,
how sweet
travelling to Thee through imagination
upon the roads of the unseen worlds,
how pleasant
the taste of Thy love,
how delightful
the drink of Thy nearness!
So give us refuge from Thy casting out and Thy sending far,
and place us among
the most elect of Thy knowers,
the most righteous of Thy servants,
the most truthful of Thy obeyers,
the most sincere of Thy worshipers!
O All-mighty, O Majestic,
O Generous, O Endower!
By Thy mercy and kindness,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!
http://al-islam.org/sahifa/dua77.html
The Whispered Prayer of the Lovers
In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate
1 My God,
who can have tasted the sweetness of Thy love,
then wanted another in place of Thee?
Who can have become intimate with Thy nearness,
then sought removal from Thee?
2 My God, place us with him
whom Thou hast
chosen for Thy nearness and Thy friendship,
purified through Thy affection and Thy love,
given yearning for the meeting with Thee,
made pleased with Thy decree,
granted gazing upon Thy face,
shown the favour of Thy good pleasure,
given refuge from separation from Thee and Thy loathing,
settled in a sure sitting place in Thy neighbourhood,
singled out for true knowledge of Thee,
made worthy for worship of Thee,
whose heart Thou hast captivated with Thy will,
whom Thou hast picked for contemplating Thee,
whose look Thou hast made empty for Thee,
whose breast Thou hast freed for Thy love,
whom Thou hast made
desirous of what is with Thee,
inspired with Thy remembrance,
allotted thanksgiving to Thee,
occupied with obeying Thee,
turned into one of Thy righteous creatures,
chosen for whispered prayer to Thee,
and from whom Thou hast cut off all things
which cut him off from Thee!
3 O God,
place us among those
whose habit is rejoicing in Thee and yearning for Thee,
whose time is spent in sighing and moaning!
Their foreheads are bowed down before Thy mightiness,
their eyes wakeful in Thy service,
their tears flowing in dread of Thee,
their hearts fixed upon Thy love,
their cores shaken with awe of Thee.
O He
the lights of whose holiness
induce wonder in the eyes of His lovers,
the glories of whose face
arouse the longing of the hearts of His knowers!
O Furthest Wish of the hearts of the yearners!
O Utmost Limit of the hopes of the lovers!
I ask from Thee love for Thee,
love for those who love Thee,
love for every work which will join me to Thy nearness,
and that Thou makest Thyself more beloved to me
than anything other than Thee
and makest
my love for Thee
lead to Thy good pleasure,
and my yearning for Thee
protect against disobeying Thee!
Oblige me by allowing me to gaze upon Thee,
gaze upon me with the eye of affection and tenderness,
turn not Thy face away from me,
and make me one of the people of happiness with Thee
and favoured position!
O Responder,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!
However, we muslims are looking for guidance for all mankind and believe in a revelation that deals with all aspects of mankind
The Quran is also a book brought down to all lower and dark realms and extending to all high spiritual realms, so it extends to all yet it's true treasure are only for the truly purifed, and Mohammad (saw) initially recieved it at certain level through Jibrael (as) (at a very high level) and then was revealed aspects of it beyond Angelic realms in his sacred night journey, while at the same time, it was brought down in reduced degrees of it's glory till it reach the state it is now, which all of mankind, including dark souls like me, can benefit from, yet at the same time having all the higher teachings yet within it for all the friends of God to strive for by mediating on the noble verses, as for Mohammad (saw) he reached the most closest position to God that is not imaginable by the likes of me, and saying he only had indirect relationship to God through Jibrael (as) is not accurate at all, the holy spirit in the Prophets (as) and Successors (as) eventually reach a state higher then Angelic realms although the initial holy spirit was through Jibrael (as), and The Quran has many sciences that are unknown to us but are known to the sacred man who's heart recieved it and his pure holy family who's hearts to were able to recieve it's complete teachings through Mohammad (pbuh)
peace
in the Quran, we are taught Prophets (as) were sent to all people in all times
irfan - tawasuf is one of the teachings in the Quran and Sunna, ISDhillon quoted a verse in the Quran that pertains to these teachings
"Who knows himself, knows God" "Seek knowledge even if you have to go to China, for it is knowledge of the self", etc, was a one of the messages conveyed by Mohammad (saw)
The holy spirit could have two interpetations, I have a different interpetation, it acknowledges that Jibrael (as) is it but in the degree of Angelic realm, but he is not the definition of it, the spirit of command in the infallible humans is higher then the Angelic realm, it is a spiritual realm beyond theirs including Jibrael (as) and the Quran refers to this as "they ask you about the spirit, say it is the command of my lord and you have been given only little knowledge of it" (suratal Isra)
my suggesting to shiekhs is not to take what some less-informed muslims and scholars have to say about the teachings of Islam, but see the books of great arifs like Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani and Khomeini and they will point you to some overlooked verses of the Quran and hadiths
Sikhs to me seem that they however only want to focuss on this aspect of the message of the Prophets (as) and ignore all other aspects of life, such as social and political aspects
The Quran and the Sunna deal with all aspects, and deal with them in a detail way that nothing can be added or nothing can be missing, their is nothing beyond the first 6 verses of suratal hadeed and suratal tawheed/ikhlass according to report from Imam Sajad (as)
57:1-2
Whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares the glory of Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
He is the First and the Last and the Outward and Inward, and He is Cognizant of all things.
The verse 57:2 is a teaching of the Quran, however it is not the only teaching, the parable of light of the Quran in the chapter of light is the goal of shariah and the social and political aspects of the message, which is perhaps why some of the social laws dealing with fornication and the law of hijaab is found in the chapter of light along with the parable of light, and the strict social rulings are the introduced in the begining of the chapter
To say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't focuss on this aspect in detail is not a totally unfair statement, however it is not totally accurate and in a way is unfair
while the deep teachings of marifatal nafs and mystical aspects of Quran were not taught to all people, they were taught to some of his special companions like Salman Farsi (as) and in full detail to his holy family, more particullarily Ali (as)
He (saw) then said "I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is it's gate, so who wants the knowledge and wisdom, should come by it's gate", and all spiritual lines of spiriutal teachings (sufi and irfan lines) with exception of one go back to Ali (as)
However, Islam has come for all levels of mankind and deals with all levels and aspects of mankind, which include social and political aspects of society
Sikhhs perhaps do not understand the link of politics and social aspects with the spiritual aspects, this is where we differ, if you read supplication arafa of the grandson of Mohammad (saw), Imam Hussain (as), and the whole event of aushura, perhaps you will begin to see the link
To get a taste of some of the spiritual aspects in our religion, I will post some supplications from his holy family (as)
http://al-islam.org/sahifa/dua80.html
The whispered prayer of the knowers
In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate
1 My God,
tongues fall short of attaining
praise of Thee proper to Thy majesty,
intellects are incapable of grasping
the core of Thy beauty,
eyes fail before gazing
upon the glories of Thy face,
and Thou hast assigned to Thy creatures
no way to know Thee
save incapacity to know Thee!
2 My God,
place us among those
within the gardens of whose breasts
the trees of yearning for Thee have taken firm root
and the assemblies of whose hearts
have been seized by the ardour of Thy love!
They seek shelter
in the nests of meditation,
feed upon the gardens
of nearness and disclosure,
drink from the pools of love
with the cup of gentle favour,
and enter into the watering-places
of warm affection.
The covering has been lifted
from their eyes,318
the darkness of disquiet has been dispelled
from their beliefs and their innermost minds,
the contention of doubt has been negated
from their hearts and their secret thoughts,
their breasts have expanded
through the verification of true knowledge,
their aspirations have ascended
through precedent good fortune in renunciation,
their drinking is sweet
from the spring of devotion to good works,
their secret thoughts are delicious
in the sitting-place of intimacy,
their minds are secure
in the place of terror,
their souls are serene
through the return to the Lord of lords,319
their spirits have reached certitude
through triumph and prosperity,
their eyes have been gladdened
through gazing upon their Beloved,
their settling place has been settled
through reaching the request and attaining the expectation,
and their commerce has profited
through the sale of this world for the next!
3 My God,
how agreeable for hearts are
the thoughts inspiring Thy remembrance,
how sweet
travelling to Thee through imagination
upon the roads of the unseen worlds,
how pleasant
the taste of Thy love,
how delightful
the drink of Thy nearness!
So give us refuge from Thy casting out and Thy sending far,
and place us among
the most elect of Thy knowers,
the most righteous of Thy servants,
the most truthful of Thy obeyers,
the most sincere of Thy worshipers!
O All-mighty, O Majestic,
O Generous, O Endower!
By Thy mercy and kindness,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!
http://al-islam.org/sahifa/dua77.html
The Whispered Prayer of the Lovers
In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate
1 My God,
who can have tasted the sweetness of Thy love,
then wanted another in place of Thee?
Who can have become intimate with Thy nearness,
then sought removal from Thee?
2 My God, place us with him
whom Thou hast
chosen for Thy nearness and Thy friendship,
purified through Thy affection and Thy love,
given yearning for the meeting with Thee,
made pleased with Thy decree,
granted gazing upon Thy face,
shown the favour of Thy good pleasure,
given refuge from separation from Thee and Thy loathing,
settled in a sure sitting place in Thy neighbourhood,
singled out for true knowledge of Thee,
made worthy for worship of Thee,
whose heart Thou hast captivated with Thy will,
whom Thou hast picked for contemplating Thee,
whose look Thou hast made empty for Thee,
whose breast Thou hast freed for Thy love,
whom Thou hast made
desirous of what is with Thee,
inspired with Thy remembrance,
allotted thanksgiving to Thee,
occupied with obeying Thee,
turned into one of Thy righteous creatures,
chosen for whispered prayer to Thee,
and from whom Thou hast cut off all things
which cut him off from Thee!
3 O God,
place us among those
whose habit is rejoicing in Thee and yearning for Thee,
whose time is spent in sighing and moaning!
Their foreheads are bowed down before Thy mightiness,
their eyes wakeful in Thy service,
their tears flowing in dread of Thee,
their hearts fixed upon Thy love,
their cores shaken with awe of Thee.
O He
the lights of whose holiness
induce wonder in the eyes of His lovers,
the glories of whose face
arouse the longing of the hearts of His knowers!
O Furthest Wish of the hearts of the yearners!
O Utmost Limit of the hopes of the lovers!
I ask from Thee love for Thee,
love for those who love Thee,
love for every work which will join me to Thy nearness,
and that Thou makest Thyself more beloved to me
than anything other than Thee
and makest
my love for Thee
lead to Thy good pleasure,
and my yearning for Thee
protect against disobeying Thee!
Oblige me by allowing me to gaze upon Thee,
gaze upon me with the eye of affection and tenderness,
turn not Thy face away from me,
and make me one of the people of happiness with Thee
and favoured position!
O Responder,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!
However, we muslims are looking for guidance for all mankind and believe in a revelation that deals with all aspects of mankind
The Quran is also a book brought down to all lower and dark realms and extending to all high spiritual realms, so it extends to all yet it's true treasure are only for the truly purifed, and Mohammad (saw) initially recieved it at certain level through Jibrael (as) (at a very high level) and then was revealed aspects of it beyond Angelic realms in his sacred night journey, while at the same time, it was brought down in reduced degrees of it's glory till it reach the state it is now, which all of mankind, including dark souls like me, can benefit from, yet at the same time having all the higher teachings yet within it for all the friends of God to strive for by mediating on the noble verses, as for Mohammad (saw) he reached the most closest position to God that is not imaginable by the likes of me, and saying he only had indirect relationship to God through Jibrael (as) is not accurate at all, the holy spirit in the Prophets (as) and Successors (as) eventually reach a state higher then Angelic realms although the initial holy spirit was through Jibrael (as), and The Quran has many sciences that are unknown to us but are known to the sacred man who's heart recieved it and his pure holy family who's hearts to were able to recieve it's complete teachings through Mohammad (pbuh)
peace
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ISDhillon
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Satsriakal Link Ji,
I enjoyed reading your post thankyou for your valued contribution,I do however disagree with you on the political and social aspects, in sikhism we believe that only after you have treaded the spiritual path will man be able to conduct himself in social and political arenas the way god has intended, because spiritual path awakens mans own moral conscious the problem with islam is some people are not spiritually enlightened yet are punished, how can you punish someone who is ignorant of the truth within as far as sikhism is concerned you punish the innocent ones because they are asleep to the spirit life. This is why Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji instituted the concept of miri-piri which was that the sikhs have temporal and spiritual authority however the flag of piri (spiritual path) flyers higher than the flag of miri (temporal power) and this is also the reason why the 2 swords cross one another on the khanda, because the sword of miri defeneds the sword of piri, ie, we have to uphold the right of all people to acheive self-realisation even if they are criminals, we can only punish those who are committed to taking the right to live from others because life is an opportunity to tread on the spiritual path. Infact sikhism is the only religion on earth which deals with the the changing reality in modern and post-modern society because collective authority is bestowed upon the corporate body politic known as khalsa and to this day we have never been defeated by any oppressors throughout history in fact we have gained respect from all our enemies even the moghuls, bahadar shah actually saw the light of allah in Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and as a gift gave the 10th guru Hazrat Ali's (the prophets son -in-law") sword as a token of his esteem I have seen this at anandpur sahib, this was an incredibly great act of reverence to the sikh guru from the then mughal emporor.
Anyhow I have since now not come back to this forum because as moss quite rightly has pointed out above that members originally were invited to this site because of proposed allegations against sikhi, after successive failure of dawaah the conversation ended and I hope whilst you may not believe in sikhism you will take away something positive from this discussion I know I can be strong-willed but that is because I know I have found a path which does not create any doubt in my mind and I hope you have all found that path in Islam.
Thanks
ISDhillon:thankyou:
I enjoyed reading your post thankyou for your valued contribution,I do however disagree with you on the political and social aspects, in sikhism we believe that only after you have treaded the spiritual path will man be able to conduct himself in social and political arenas the way god has intended, because spiritual path awakens mans own moral conscious the problem with islam is some people are not spiritually enlightened yet are punished, how can you punish someone who is ignorant of the truth within as far as sikhism is concerned you punish the innocent ones because they are asleep to the spirit life. This is why Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji instituted the concept of miri-piri which was that the sikhs have temporal and spiritual authority however the flag of piri (spiritual path) flyers higher than the flag of miri (temporal power) and this is also the reason why the 2 swords cross one another on the khanda, because the sword of miri defeneds the sword of piri, ie, we have to uphold the right of all people to acheive self-realisation even if they are criminals, we can only punish those who are committed to taking the right to live from others because life is an opportunity to tread on the spiritual path. Infact sikhism is the only religion on earth which deals with the the changing reality in modern and post-modern society because collective authority is bestowed upon the corporate body politic known as khalsa and to this day we have never been defeated by any oppressors throughout history in fact we have gained respect from all our enemies even the moghuls, bahadar shah actually saw the light of allah in Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and as a gift gave the 10th guru Hazrat Ali's (the prophets son -in-law") sword as a token of his esteem I have seen this at anandpur sahib, this was an incredibly great act of reverence to the sikh guru from the then mughal emporor.
Anyhow I have since now not come back to this forum because as moss quite rightly has pointed out above that members originally were invited to this site because of proposed allegations against sikhi, after successive failure of dawaah the conversation ended and I hope whilst you may not believe in sikhism you will take away something positive from this discussion I know I can be strong-willed but that is because I know I have found a path which does not create any doubt in my mind and I hope you have all found that path in Islam.
Thanks
ISDhillon:thankyou:
chacha_jalebi
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oooo kiddhaaa dillionnn puttar
can i ask u 1 question, i dunno if its true or not matey,
wasnt guru nanak ji a muslim before? n didnt he go on hajj?
can i ask u 1 question, i dunno if its true or not matey,
wasnt guru nanak ji a muslim before? n didnt he go on hajj?
ISDhillon
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Satsriakal Chachajalebi Ji,
I like your name
No Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not a muslim I have addressed these allegations in the previous posts please read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and see what Sri Guru Nnank Dev Ji says about the path of Islam and you will get yur answer, Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually stated after he received divine ordinance from god that their is no muslim or hindu the ahmeddiya community have spread alot of viscious rumours about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji all of which centre around a cloak that he recieved from a qazi when he went on his udasi (holy preaching) to mecca he did not go on hajj he went all over the world to many pilgrim station but renounced such practices as manmat (mental appeasement). Anyway the cloak is in a gurdwara call dera baba nanal and because the cloak has arabic writing on it the ahmeddiyas say he was a muslim it has been revoked by all sikh and non-sikh scholars but many islamic websites continue to repat these lies because Islam as a doctrine is unwilling to acknowledge anything after the demise of their prophet.
I hope that helps and please the whole thread alot of these missives have already been done and dusted,
ISDhillon
I like your name
No Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not a muslim I have addressed these allegations in the previous posts please read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and see what Sri Guru Nnank Dev Ji says about the path of Islam and you will get yur answer, Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually stated after he received divine ordinance from god that their is no muslim or hindu the ahmeddiya community have spread alot of viscious rumours about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji all of which centre around a cloak that he recieved from a qazi when he went on his udasi (holy preaching) to mecca he did not go on hajj he went all over the world to many pilgrim station but renounced such practices as manmat (mental appeasement). Anyway the cloak is in a gurdwara call dera baba nanal and because the cloak has arabic writing on it the ahmeddiyas say he was a muslim it has been revoked by all sikh and non-sikh scholars but many islamic websites continue to repat these lies because Islam as a doctrine is unwilling to acknowledge anything after the demise of their prophet.
I hope that helps and please the whole thread alot of these missives have already been done and dusted,
ISDhillon
chacha_jalebi
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okie dokie ji puttar, so me does have sum knowlegde of sikhism, cos i used 2 go skool n hav bare sikh mateys!!
i hav heard sum sikhs say inshallah, n stuff wer does dat cum from? or is dat jus a 1 off tin? 4 get ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it
i hav heard sum sikhs say inshallah, n stuff wer does dat cum from? or is dat jus a 1 off tin? 4 get ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it
ISDhillon
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"i hav heard sum sikhs say inshallah, n stuff wer does dat cum from? or is dat jus a 1 off tin? 4 get ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it [/QUOTE]"
I dont know why they say inshallah but as faras I am aware inshallah means godwilling and anyone can say that, its like sometimes i say "oh my god" but that doesnt mean i am christian.
Anyway what does "ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it " mean? I didnt understand this perhaps i am not that cool and down with the lingo innit wicked safe massive lol:giggling:
ISDhillon
[/QUOTE]"I dont know why they say inshallah but as faras I am aware inshallah means godwilling and anyone can say that, its like sometimes i say "oh my god" but that doesnt mean i am christian.
Anyway what does "ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it " mean? I didnt understand this perhaps i am not that cool and down with the lingo innit wicked safe massive lol:giggling:
ISDhillon
chacha_jalebi
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lol inshallah means, Allah willin, lik up2 Allah (swt),
i was meant 2 say Ahmadiyyas r lik jus beggin 4 acceptance n stuff so no point in gettin involved wit em!! or listenin 2 em!!
so so so so, in sikhism wat is guru nanak jis position? lik is he a scholar? god? messenger?
i was meant 2 say Ahmadiyyas r lik jus beggin 4 acceptance n stuff so no point in gettin involved wit em!! or listenin 2 em!!
so so so so, in sikhism wat is guru nanak jis position? lik is he a scholar? god? messenger?
chacha_jalebi
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okie dokiee
matey, i have heard dat guru nanak ji disappeared, but he has a grave in pakistan? now wots dat bout?
matey y dnt u visit d ova sections of d website, its gud u no!! lik d basics of islam n stuff, hmmm im askin u questions bout ur religion u ask me aswell lol
matey, i have heard dat guru nanak ji disappeared, but he has a grave in pakistan? now wots dat bout?
matey y dnt u visit d ova sections of d website, its gud u no!! lik d basics of islam n stuff, hmmm im askin u questions bout ur religion u ask me aswell lol
salama
chk this out
ISDhillon why ru spreading lies???
chk this out
ISDhillon 05-04-2006 12:42 AM
How to silence a muslim?
Well folks I have just finished having a long debate with muslims who were challenging sikhi and they have been defeated:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...4-sikhism.html
Noone responded back so I take it that they have conceeded defeat and its just ego and jealousy left now:u): . Anyways just thought i would post the link here so that people can give jawaab when muslims get too proudy proudy. I have also been debating offline with the yahoo islam-sikhism site but they have never got back to me cos they know their wrong and they wont put my views in their comments section either but I have decided that internet is free and we cant stop everyone from writing crap because some people love crap:whisling: .
ISDhillon:wah:
ISDhillon why ru spreading lies???
chacha_jalebi
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DILLION PUTTAR oh:
oh:
ISDhillon
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What lies I am telling you to your face I have answered all the questions did you think this would in some way expose me if so how?, read the pages from the beginning where mir aziz started the debate how many lies did you write about my religion and not one single person has been able to refute them instead after I left the site another member started her own mental appeasement exercise which was allowed to go on for a while but them was closed down cos as always her arguments were going no where have a look:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...rn-about-all-religions-divine-non-divine.html
and that is why all that is left when noone can refute the arguments is jealousy and lies!!
Please advise!
ISDhillon
ISDhillon
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Look folks you can get the uncut version here:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversial-debates/8704-how-to-silence-a-muslim.html
Theres nothing to hide if you want to find a criticism you will find it!! People have said alot worse of sikhi than we ever do of islam now thats for sure come on sonz for a trainee moderator you sure arnt doing very well are you perhaps more training is due?
ISDhillon
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversial-debates/8704-how-to-silence-a-muslim.html
Theres nothing to hide if you want to find a criticism you will find it!! People have said alot worse of sikhi than we ever do of islam now thats for sure come on sonz for a trainee moderator you sure arnt doing very well are you perhaps more training is due?
ISDhillon