Sikhism

[AvarAllahNoor]

My teacher is not misguided, and he does not focus on Sikhism, he only has a short article. Here's his site. He's actually a really good guy, and I go to Islamic classes every monday evening that he runs.

He's a cretin as he's concocted this bit up!!

It is also reported that he used deceptive tactics to gain entry to the sacred city of Makkah in Arabia, the most revered site to Muslims. While there he sought to convert people to his new Hindu/Muslim blended religion. After failing in this venture, he set out to other lands, one of them being Tibet, to try to curry favour with the followers of other religions. For all of the proselytising and preaching that he took part in, he was able to gain little following other than those who were in the subcontinent or had had visited him hearing about his rumoured powers of reason and miracles. On September 22, 1539 AD, Guru Nanak died and went under the Judgement of Allah, with the rest of the pretenders and false prophets that had preceded him. It was said by his admirers that he had been ‘bewitched by the beauty of the Creation of God.’ What fitting words for those who claim prophesy after the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

HOW DARE HE CALL GURU NANAK FALSE??? He's the imbecile who shall perish for saying such a thing!!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

my gawd!!! i was bein nice to ya, and whos bein rude now? unbreakbale main tenu break kar dena eh , you said sikhs are tolerant of other faiths, and muslims aint? well right now your not being tolerant, and when partition happened why wasnt you tolerant then? when the hindus used the sikhs lol, see stop bein hypocritical, all i said is that when Guru Nanak ji came up with his verses, he talks about a criteria of muslims read my post properly you will understand what i said, because its true! and can i just ask who is guru nanak to give a criteria for to be callin yourself a muslim? and why did he do that?

He didn't 'came up with his verses' it is the Word of God! He got it directly

 

[Mohsin]

HOW DARE HE CALL GURU NANAK FALSE??? He's the imbecile who shall perish for saying such a thing!!

Can you explain how he got into mecca, as only muslims are allowed into mecca. He surely must have lied to get in, since he is no muslim. These are not the qualities of a messenger

 

[Fishman]

HOW DARE HE CALL GURU NANAK FALSE??? He's the imbecile who shall perish for saying such a thing!!

I think we can settle this debate with simple questions, one per post. first of all:
Did Guru Nanak go on Hajj?

 

[MusLiM 4 LiFe]

I think we can settle this debate with simple questions, one per post. first of all:
Did Guru Nanak go on Hajj?

yes he did..

His aim was to visit Muslim countries. He wanted to visit also, the Muslim mosques in those countries. He chose Mecca as the first such place to visit. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. It contains the most sacred Muslim mosque called the "Kaaba" or the House of God. A visit to Mecca by a Muslim is called hajj. A Muslim visitor to Mecca is called a hajji. Guru Nanak decided to go on hajj.


He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis. He took a fakir’s staff, or stick in his hand. The Guru carried a book of his sacred songs or hymns. Like the hajjis, he had with him a iota or jug. He also carried a mat like the hajjis. Dressed thus, he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did.

he also went 2 other pilgrimage places of diferent religions..[/

source[URL]

 

[Fishman]

So, he did go on Hajj. Now we ask:
Did Guru Nanak ever consider himself a Muslim?

 

[MusLiM 4 LiFe]

read this..

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/nanak/Nanak1.html

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Can you explain how he got into mecca, as only muslims are allowed into mecca. He surely must have lied to get in, since he is no muslim. These are not the qualities of a messenger

Muslims in those times happened to tolerate/accept that there were other prophets other than Mohammed. Unlike narrow minded 'muslims' of today. He was respected by ALL muslims and hindus, so you work it out!

Guru Nanak NEVER lied, so don't make such comments as anything said against Mohammed shall offend you!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I think we can settle this debate with simple questions, one per post. first of all:
Did Guru Nanak go on Hajj?

This Will Clear It Up.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

So, he did go on Hajj. Now we ask:
Did Guru Nanak ever consider himself a Muslim?

NO! He was uniting others who claimed to be muslims/hindus etc etc.

He was respected by both, but never once insisted he was muslim. His followers said he was a prophet (both muslims and hindus as i keep saying)

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Guru Nanak is recgognised to be the Prophet of all. If some narrow minded Muslims/Hindus (of today as they are blinded by falsehood) as a majority of the elders all believe it as i've spoken to many at the Gurdwara and in other places i've visited.

Guru Nanak was the most widely travelled Prophet. He not only covered the length and breadth of the Indian sub-continent but also visited the Middle East, the seat of the Muslim religion, as well as Tibet the seat of Buddhism during the 15th century. Definite historical evidence of the Guru’s visit to Tibet is not available, but this tradition is being passed on from generation to generation, despite the difficulties and hazards of the journey that existed in those times. This persistent tradition has gained strong support from the revelations made from Tibetan lamas coming into India in the recent years.


Ghoom MonastryThe Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Buddhists in Tibet, has confirmed it in his discussions with some Sikh leaders and that Tibetans revere Guru Nanak as a Buddhist saint under the name of Guru Gompka Maharaj.
An Indian official who went in late 1950s with our trade mission to Lhasa has brought with him a painting drawn on silk from a Buddhist monastery stated to be of Guru Nanak. The portrait was in the typical dress of the Tibetan saints. During my two years stay in North Bengal and Sikkim, I visited a large number of monasteries and, on making enquiries, I found quite a few lamas mentioning Guru Nanak as a saint of theirs who had gone to Tibet from India.

At a place called Ghoom, a few miles from Darjeeling, there is a Tibetan monastery where a large tanka (a painting on cloth which can be rolled up like a map) is said to be that of Guru Nanak. These facts tend to confirm the belief that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, but differences of opinion exist over the route taken by him.

One view is that his route lay through Ladakh, which was even then a Buddhist center, linked with Lhasa (capital of Tibet). The other is that Guru Nanak took a route passing through Sikkim. There is evidence in the Sikh scriptures that Guru Nanak went to kamrup (Assam). Either the state of Kamrup then included modern Sikkim or after visiting the Kamrup area Guru Nanak went on to Tibet through Sikkim.

Sikkim has two main routes through which trade between India and China has been carried down the ages, viz., Natu-la Nathang route and the Donkhyla Nonkung Passes. It was at Gangtok that a civilian contractor told me of the existence of a Gurdwara in North Sikkim in memory of Guru Nanak. I had been planning to visit North Sikkim for its scenic beauty, but the reported presence of a Gurdwara there made me too eager to carry out the plan. My two attempts to reach Chungtang did not materialize, as I could not cross Wong-slide, almost halfway, which was then very active due to the rainy season. It was on my third attempt, during winter, that I reached Chungtang, the place where Guru Nanak stayed on his way to Tibet.

Chungtang is about a 100 miles away from Gangtok and is in the interior of North Sikkim. The route which goes along Teesta river from Dikchu onward used to be a bridle path only, but a few years ago a metallic road called North Sikkim highway has been completed and now a trip to Chungtang is quite easy and comfortable. The valleys of North Sikkim are the most fertile in Sikkim, the people there are very healthy and charming and the scenic beauty is breadth catching with millions of orchids blossoming all around.

Half way at Singik one gets a most clear and enchanting view of Kanchangchunga. Chungtang is at a height of about 6500 feet above sea level. The small valley has Teesta River and Lachung Choo (a tributary of Tiesta) on the two sides; these separate the valley from densely forested hills. The smaller hills on its northwest lead to Lachung Lachen valleys and Donkhyla-Nonkung Passes entering into Tibet.

Certain maps published by Government of India show a shrine and police post in Chungtang. There are only a few houses in Chuntang. The major features are the shrine of Guru Nanak and the Sikkim police post. Local people also call the place Nanak-Tang. Due to the pucca (metallic) road having been laid, the area is now fast developing into a prosperous village with amenities like a school, dispensary, etc., coming up.


Stone mound and footprints of Guru NanakIn the middle of the small valley there is a single hard stone mound, 30 feet high and about 200 feet in circumference. The village people have risen a feet high stonewall around it to maintain the sanctity of the place. The stone mound has a cave inside, whose mouth has been walled up with stones. On the top of the mound, there are a few depressions. They are believed to be the footprints of Guru Nanak and the local people still pay homage to these marks. I saw some small coins offered at the spot on the top marked by a stone, about 2 cubic feet, although there was no priest as such for the shrine.

On the side of the mound there are crevices a few feet about the ground level through which water was trickling. The crevices were a few inches deep, suggesting that the water has been coming out of these for the past few centuries.

The story that has come down from generations, as told by the local people is that, Guru Nanak on his way to Tibet stayed here in the cave under the mound and, as the water in the river was very muddy due to the rains, he produced water from the side of the mound and since then the water keeps on coming out of the ribs of the mound. During the passage of time, earth has come down from the hills dues to rains and landslides, and has covered up the side of the mound to a sizeable extent and hence the cave, which is otherwise quite large, has been walled up. Tibetans who come there tie their religious hymns with strings taken across the mound by tall bamboos. It is a belief among Tibetans that the individual doing so gets recitation of these hymns credited to his account the number of times the cloth carrying the hymns flutters in the breeze. These are also stated to be efficacious warding off of evil spirits.

At about 20 places on the mound wild white orchids were blossoming. When I tried to pick up a small bunch of orchids, some of the local people immediately stopped me, indicating that this being a temple I could not remove these orchids. I explained to them that this was as much a temple of mine as theirs and I wanted to take away a few orchids with me as a symbol of the Guru’s blessings and grace. They were not at first convinced by my argument, but then an old man, pointing to my beard and turban, told them in their language that I was a follower of Guru Nanak and might be allowed to carry these orchids with me.


Tibet is a beautiful mountainous terrain.I stayed there till evening. The sun was slowly coming to its journey’s end and its orange rays filtered through the trees on the hilltop. The day’s warmth was still lingering in the breeze. The mild flutter of the hymns and the gushing waters of the river made a soft music for the ears. There was an aroma of serenity and ethereal bliss around the place in which I almost lost myself.

As the shadows lengthened and deepened, I moved from the place with a strange elation, which dwelt in my heart for days together. Even now when my thoughts take me back to Nanak-tang, the same strange feeling of elation grips me and urges me to go there again.

Whenever I have spoken about my visit to Chungtang, I have found that most members of my community and other admirers of Guru Nanak are not aware of it. I have, therefore, given the above account so that the lovers and devotees of Guru Nanak may make a pilgrimage to Nanak-tang where there is in the atmosphere a power of prayer that goes to your heart without your moving your lips and you drink deep of the bliss of peace that Guru Nanak had left in the place. Those with resources and the custodians of our faith may raise there a suitable shrine to the glory of Guru Nanak and for the benefit of pilgrims.

Reading about this makes my faith in Sikhism even more attal (firm)

 

[Fishman]

Non-Muslims weren't even allowed in any of Arabia at Guru Nanak's time. How could the Muslims have been any more tolerant then than they are now.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Non-Muslims weren't even allowed in any of Arabia at Guru Nanak's time. How could the Muslims have been any more tolerant then than they are now.

Hmmm, if you'd bothered to read the link i posted you'd understand as it's self-explantory.

He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis. He took a fakir’s staff, or stick in his hand. The Guru carried a book of his sacred songs or hymns. Like the hajjis, he had with him a iota or jug. He also carried a mat like the hajjis. Dressed thus, he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did. Bhai Mardana was with him. He, too, was dressed as a hajji.

This is the way Guru Ji dressed and for what he preached and, because of this he was considered to be a muslim Prophet.

 

[Fishman]

Hmmm, if you'd bothered to read the link i posted you'd understand as it's self-explantory.

He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis. He took a fakir’s staff, or stick in his hand. The Guru carried a book of his sacred songs or hymns. Like the hajjis, he had with him a iota or jug. He also carried a mat like the hajjis. Dressed thus, he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did. Bhai Mardana was with him. He, too, was dressed as a hajji.

This is the way Guru Ji dressed and for what he preached and, because of this he was considered to be a muslim Prophet.

He can't have been considered a Muslim prophet by Muslims because one of the fundimental tennants of Islam is to believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was Allah's final messenger. Not all prophets were messengers, but all messengers were prophets.

Also, Muhammad (pbuh) said that no (true) prophet or messenger would come after him, and that no (true) new faith would be born. How can Sikhism believe in Muhammad (pbuh), whilst following a religion that was formed after him? Muhammad (pbuh) also taught that pilgrimage is one of the pillars of Islam. How can Sikhism believe in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) if he taught things that Guru Nanak condemned?

That Sikhiwiki site didn't work.

 

[Mohsin]

Muslims in those times happened to tolerate/accept that there were other prophets other than Mohammed. Unlike narrow minded 'muslims' of today. He was respected by ALL muslims and hindus, so you work it out!

This is false. As fishman has said, one of our pillars of faith is to believe Muhammed is the last Prophet PBUH. This is what it says in the Qur'an also and what he said himself, so it is nothing about being less tollerant now, it is just about following the fundamentals of islam

Oh by the way what is your response to Unbreakables claims that you have an incorrect understanding of sikh doctrine

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

He can't have been considered a Muslim prophet by Muslims because one of the fundimental tennants of Islam is to believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was Allah's final messenger. Not all prophets were messengers, but all messengers were prophets.

Also, Muhammad (pbuh) said that no (true) prophet or messenger would come after him, and that no (true) new faith would be born. How can Sikhism believe in Muhammad (pbuh), whilst following a religion that was formed after him? Muhammad (pbuh) also taught that pilgrimage is one of the pillars of Islam. How can Sikhism believe in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) if he taught things that Guru Nanak condemned?

That Sikhiwiki site didn't work.

Define 'believe in Prophet Muhammad'? We respect him but no way aknowldege him to be the last of the messengers! To Sikhs other prophets are of no relevance to us. We respect them but do not follow them!

As for muslims respecting Guru Nanak ji, you'll have to ask the learned ones not the fundamentalist for their views.

Sikiwiki works fine...

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

This is false. As fishman has said, one of our pillars of faith is to believe Muhammed is the last Prophet PBUH. This is what it says in the Qur'an also and what he said himself, so it is nothing about being less tollerant now, it is just about following the fundamentals of islam

Oh by the way what is your response to Unbreakables claims that you have an incorrect understanding of sikh doctrine

Read my reply to Fishman

Where did he say that? He's referring to people who don't understand it!

I know my religion!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

If you follow the Kuran then explain this...

If the quaran is the word of Allah (god). then the insrtuctions/rules to obey are important for muslims. in the quarn it says a muslim must have no more than 4 wifes. Muhammed had at least 9. he had a few prostitutes as wifes...he claimed he was helping them out . so Allah says u only allowd 4 wives but yet mohammed had 9. therefore he is technically disobeying allah.

 

[Fishman]

If you follow the Kuran then explain this...

If the quaran is the word of Allah (god). then the insrtuctions/rules to obey are important for muslims. in the quarn it says a muslim must have no more than 4 wifes. Muhammed had at least 9. he had a few prostitutes as wifes...he claimed he was helping them out . so Allah says u only allowd 4 wives but yet mohammed had 9. therefore he is technically disobeying allah.

Since Muhammad (pbuh) was infallible, he was allowed to have more than four wives, because he definitely wouldn't have abused them. The rest of us are not infallible prophets, so we are only allowed less than four wives as a compromise.
As for the prostitutes, Muhammad was helping them out, by taking them out of their horrible profession and putting them into a good, happy household, where they wouldn't need to sell themselves anymore.

And if you respect Muhammad (pbuh), then why are you acusing him of being a hypocrite? And the issue of how Guru Nanak got into Makkah still isn't solved. But, as I said before, we can solve it logically:

Problem: was Guru Nanak a true prophet?
Fact 1. Guru Nanak was not a Muslim, and never considered himself one.
Fact 2. Entry to Makkah has been illegal for Non-Muslims ever since Muhammad took the city.
Fact 3. Guru Nanak entered Makkah.
Because it was illegal for non-Muslims to get into Makkah, then Guru Nanak must have done something deciteful to enter.
Fact 4. Sikhs consider a true prophet to be sinless.
Fact 5. Decite is a sin in Sikhism.
Fact 6. Guru Nanak comitted decite when he entered Makkah.
from this we can conclude that Guru Nanak was not a true prophet, because he did something which is deciteful, and decite is a sin in Sikhism.

Just so all of you know, there is a difference between an insult and an argument. If I were to say 'Guru Nanak was a false prophet', that would be an insult. But if I were to say 'Guru Nanak was a false prophet because of such-and-such', that is not an insult, it's an argument. If I were to make something up completely, like the Christians do with the 'Allah-Moon God' thing, that would be an insult. But I am just using what I have learnt from you, which I assume is true, unless you are lying to me, which is not likely.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Since Muhammad (pbuh) was infallible, he was allowed to have more than four wives, because he definitely wouldn't have abused them. The rest of us are not infallible prophets, so we are only allowed less than four wives as a compromise.
As for the prostitutes, Muhammad was helping them out, by taking them out of their horrible profession and putting them into a good, happy household, where they wouldn't need to sell themselves anymore.

And if you respect Muhammad (pbuh), then why are you acusing him of being a hypocrite?


Just so all of you know, there is a difference between an insult and an argument. If I were to say 'Guru Nanak was a false prophet', that would be an insult. But if I were to say 'Guru Nanak was a false prophet because of such-and-such', that is not an insult, it's an argument. If I were to make something up completely, like the Christians do with the 'Allah-Moon God' thing, that would be an insult. But I am just using what I have learnt from you, which I assume is true, unless you are lying to me, which is not likely.

Guru Nanak was not decietful. He was wearing the garbs that are thought by muslims to be of the kind muslims wear. So perhaps that is why he was 'allowed' in. BTW - Do people stand their looking at passports to allow entry into Makka - The fact remains he entered Makkah and created the miracle of the revolving Makkah!

Just because we respect a person does not make it wrong to question what he practices and what he preaches, especially if it's contradicting!

So in the case of Mohammed it's 'Do as i say not as i do'