Silence, acceptance and approval

[Muhammad]

Greetings MTAFFI,

Please note that no one here said that the fault is "soley" on Muslims.

I was referring to your statement about no Muslims speaking out against terrorism, and I was pointing out that it is an extreme to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough.

Media can exaggerate and can misrepresent, but often I find that it is fairly truthful. The news reports on events and happenings around the world, just because it doesnt put everyone in the greatest of light doesnt make it any less true.

It certainly becomes less true if there is exaggeration and misrepresentation going on.

I would find an Imam speaking out against radicals very appealing, in fact imagine if a bunch of Imams got together and took a serious stance against the current events, are you really going to tell me that it wouldnt be a media frenzy? I believe the news would be all over such a thing. It seems to me that a lot of people on this forum seem to think the media is after Muslims, I think you need to watch the news a little more carefully. The media in the US tends to be very liberal, they want to pull out of Iraq, they love to attack Bush and they often dont speak of Muslims in general but use the usual groups, al-qaeda, etc. In fact, my wishing that Muslims would speak out is not as much for the rest of the world as it is for Muslims. Why do you think these groups are able to attract young influential muslims? Obviously not enough is being said or done to keep people away from these terrorist organizations.

What I am seeing in your post is a lot of assumptions but little factual material. Imams have already gotten together, as you can note here and here, and yes, they do sometimes make it to the news. I wouldn't call it a media "frenzy", but nevertheless the news is there. So we can see that Muslims are working very hard to make announcements, public declarations and all kinds of things to effectively deliver the message that these acts of injustice are wrong according to Islam. And many, many scholars have spoken out against such things, so that young influential Muslims have plenty of guidance to lead them to the truth.

Countless ways and yet it is not shown to the world by anyone. I would also like to point out again that there are other news sources that are not american and are based in the mid east, why would these agencies not cover these imam's?

These are assumptions; we've already seen how the countless voices are shown to the world, whichever news sources are used.

How do I know it is the vast majority? Well common sense for one

What is the common sense behind the assumption that the majority of terrorist acts today are by Muslims? All I see is stereotyping here.

and by the people who commit these crimes own admissions for another. How many of these attacks are committed by any other religion? None, in fact I challenge you to find one instance in current events in regard to what we are speaking about (middle east and terrorism) where the assailants are not claiming to be Muslim and doing the work of Allah.

Not all crimes are done by Muslims and those that are do not always claim to be doing the "work of Allaah". Look at the Virginia Massacre, a very recent event; was the assailant a Muslim? It was one of the deadliest mass shootings in American history, yet this has nothing to do with Muslims. Incidentally, I haven't yet heard it being called an act of "terrorism", "radicalism" or "extremism". Perhaps these terms are only reserved for a special set of people?

I couldnt agree more, why do you think this is? Could it be because Muslims are not distinguishing themselves from these people? Maybe this is not the entire reason but it definitely has a whole whole whole lot to do with it.

What distinguishes Muslims from these people is their actions and sometimes appearance too, so people who have little knowledge or background in Islam do unIslamic things which make them stand out from practising Muslims. I think it has more to do with what the media wish to portray, because all too often a person who calls themselves a 'Muslim' on TV is seen to represent all of the Muslim population.

No, it is not actually, the declaration of a single scholar is an opinion, a declaration by a large group of scholars holding a summit would mean something.

Hundreds of scholars have spoken out, and many summits have been made (as can be noted from the links I gave you earlier), so I hope that means something.

This may be true but that doesnt stop some from labeling them as such, and you only mention apostate, what about the siding with the west or being a liberal or moderate?

The same goes for siding with the west or being labelled as liberal; Islam does not teach unjustice so there is no reason to label people as such. The only people who would do so are probably the terrorists themselves who have little understanding of Islam.

Greetings wilberhum,

I firmly believe that “Silence = approval”.

Fair enough, though silence is most certainly not the case here.

Now I often see where there are statements that Islam condemns terrorism. That is not my point. My point is they almost never are names named and the condemnation is open to interpretation.
There can be alternate definitions of what an Innocent Civilian is. Obviously we are not communication if we use different definitions.

I think the condemnations are pretty clear - they may not have named every single terrorist, but what they are referring to is quite straightforward and not much "interpretation" is necessary. Let's look at the following quotes:

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
[SIZE=-2]Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm[/SIZE]

Council of Saudi ‘Ulama', fatwa of February 2003:
"What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. ... Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions."
[SIZE=-2]The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003, http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm; also in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10[/SIZE]

Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:
"Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. ... "[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. ... Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for."
United Press International, October 18, 2001, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml

But I don’t remember any other condemnation of “A Terrorist”. I have never heard a single negative word from any Muslim for the likes of Mohamed Atta. I have never seen condemnations of any Imam that promotes violence and condones terrorism.

Yet Muslims have spoken out against similar acts of violence committed by others, such as the London Bombers. See here for eg.: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/07/ef306399-3e11-4a6a-9634-8dae6fcf8ee6.html Even so-called Imams promoting violence have been condemned outright.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?

They most certainly do not see praise of murders; rather they see the opposite. I'm not sure where you have been checking for Muslim responses, but I am quite sure they are far from being silent or praising terrorism.

Peace.

 

[Keltoi]

Sometimes I think many Muslims are afraid to give their honest feelings about many of the terrorist acts committed in the name of their religion because by doing so they might appear to be condoning political actions they don't agree with. Like the Iraq War. When I saw all the videos coming out of so-called Muslims beheading people on videotapes I thought.."This is it, Muslims will have to openly and forcefully denounce these actions now"....but I was wrong. Yes, some said "This is wrong"..then will come the "but" monkey..."but the Iraq War is wrong". I understand this line of thinking, but as a Christian, if I saw so-called Christians sawing some poor person's head off on a videotape yelling "Praise the Lord"....I would be disgusted beyond words to describe. I expected summits, meetings, protests....but there was nothing. That is the silence I think many people are referring to.

 

[جوري]

Why would we denounce the beheadings? what are your boys doing there? handing out candy? I think they deserve everything that is coming to them... Anyone who willingly, consciously and freely signs up for this war deserves what is coming to them-- I didn't hear any regrets from a woman solider that murdered a 7 years old boy... ... I am only hoping the rest can learn a lesson and stop going there... leave these people alone! enough already... people have had enough of you.. if I were living in Iraq and I lived in this much chaos and experienced this much loss. I'd make it my soul purpose to be rid my country of you, any which was possible!
What would you do in a reverse situation? if Iraqis came here imperialized you, stole your natural resources and raped your women, threw your men in jail with some dogs at them--and disseminated crap about you every day in their corporate media for 8 yrs? Pls enough hypocrisy

 

[Keltoi]

Why would we denounce the beheadings? what are your boys doing there? handing out candy? I think they deserve everything that is coming to them... Anyone who willingly, consciously and freely signs up for this war deserves what is coming to them-- I didn't hear any regrets from a woman solider that murdered a 7 years old boy... ... I am only hoping the rest can learn a lesson and stop going there... leave these people alone! enough already... people have had enough of you.. if I were living in Iraq and I lived in this much chaos and experienced this much loss. I'd make it my soul purpose to be rid my country of you, any which was possible!
What would you do in a reverse situation? if Iraqis came here imperialized you, stole your natural resources and raped your women, threw your men in jail with some dogs at them--and disseminated crap about you every day in their corporate media for 8 yrs? Pls enough hypocrisy

Thanks for proving my point. The beheading in the name of Allah takes a back seat to politics.

 

[جوري]

The beheading is in the name of justice. Don't want to lose your head.. don't go there!

peace!

 

[Keltoi]

The beheading is in the name of justice. Don't want to lose your head.. don't go there!

peace!

In the name of justice? Perhaps I might accept that if the one being murdered was a soldier, but of course it wasn't. They never are. I also notice you keep dodging the issue of these fighters for "justice" yelling "God is Great!" while they murder a non-combatant on a video tape like a cheap snuff film. Are these the people you want representing your faith?

 

[wilberhum]

Muhammad
London's Muslims Condemn Extremists
Not a single person was named as a terrorist.
That is my point

They most certainly do not see praise of murders

Going back less than a week I found:
Justification of terrorism

Chechens didnt blow up the hostages in Buddenyvosk so there was no killing of innocent people but there was tens of thousands of dead innocents in Chechnya which is why this hostage-taking was so crucial.

Another Muslim supports him

I think the chechens should do whatever it takes to liberate themselves... All is fair in Love and war!.... there is no love lost there though

Praising a murder

Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev

Thread:

Bin Laden is a Great Man, Formidable Enemy and Deserves Respect

And I just love this response:

lets not say nothing bad about no-one

Did that support my point?

One good thing i have seen about Osama

all Bin Ladens aims of the war are defensive

Prainsing hostage takers

they tried a more brutal method and that did work and they became heroes

Denial is common

There's no such thing as al Qaeda, or al Qaida, or however you want to spell it. It's a fraud perpetrated on the British and American people by the governments to scare us into submission.

Wilber

 

[snakelegs]

Sometimes I think many Muslims are afraid to give their honest feelings about many of the terrorist acts committed in the name of their religion because by doing so they might appear to be condoning political actions they don't agree with.

you have hit on something here.
many muslims experience this as a war against islam - whether or not we see it this way doesn't really matter.
i fall into this thinking also. i am so upset at what is being done in my name as an american citizen, that i often do not criticize despicable things done in response to it.
btw, i think some muslim organizations have taken a stand against terrorism. one problem is i think that muslims don't really have a central religious authority figure, or organized clergy.

 

[Keltoi]

you have hit on something here.
many muslims experience this as a war against islam - whether or not we see it this way doesn't really matter.
i fall into this thinking also. i am so upset at what is being done in my name as an american citizen, that i often do not criticize despicable things done in response to it.
btw, i think some muslim organizations have taken a stand against terrorism. one problem is i think that muslims don't really have a central religious authority figure, or organized clergy.

I've brought this issue up before, about the lack of central authority figure in Islam to make grand declarations. I'm sure that is a large reason for the perception that Muslims aren't active enough in denouncing terrorism.

 

[MTAFFI]

Greetings MTAFFI,

I was referring to your statement about no Muslims speaking out against terrorism, and I was pointing out that it is an extreme to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough.

Why would you consider "extreme" to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough? Also, I have looked back at my posts and I dont see where I said it "all" comes down to any one particular thing, also I dont see where I ever said that "no" muslims speak out, in fact, I notice that I posted that some do, just not enough.

It certainly becomes less true if there is exaggeration and misrepresentation going on.

Please show me an exaggeration with a recent event.. I am saying that there is occasional exageration or misrepresentation, but this can typically be figured out by watching more than one news station or following more than one source, which I would think most people do, otherwise how would we know of exaggeration or misrepresentation?

What I am seeing in your post is a lot of assumptions but little factual material. Imams have already gotten together, as you can note here and here, and yes, they do sometimes make it to the news. I wouldn't call it a media "frenzy", but nevertheless the news is there. So we can see that Muslims are working very hard to make announcements, public declarations and all kinds of things to effectively deliver the message that these acts of injustice are wrong according to Islam. And many, many scholars have spoken out against such things, so that young influential Muslims have plenty of guidance to lead them to the truth.

These are assumptions; we've already seen how the countless voices are shown to the world, whichever news sources are used.

It is actually funny that you chose these as your sources because they you actually proved my point. Neither of the articles are even from the last 2 years. You look for Imams and scholars speaking out against this violence and the best you get is from over two years ago. Try to look up the last hate message by any of these groups that we are speaking of, I bet you can find one as recent as within the last 24 hours. Do you see the problem here, or am I just getting carpal tunnel for no reason?

What is the common sense behind the assumption that the majority of terrorist acts today are by Muslims? All I see is stereotyping here.

It seems you may have a common case of denial, I suggest you take a look at the world around to to provide yourself with the medicine to fix this. The terrorist acts that we are talking about in Iraq, Afghanistan, the attack on the US, the attacks in Somalia all are done by so called Islamic groups. All claim to "fight" in the name of Islam, if I am wrong about this please prove it and I will apologize.

Not all crimes are done by Muslims and those that are do not always claim to be doing the "work of Allaah". Look at the Virginia Massacre, a very recent event; was the assailant a Muslim? It was one of the deadliest mass shootings in American history, yet this has nothing to do with Muslims. Incidentally, I haven't yet heard it being called an act of "terrorism", "radicalism" or "extremism". Perhaps these terms are only reserved for a special set of people?

I am not saying ALL crime are committed by muslims, and you are steering away from the original point of my post. as far as the guy in Virginia, he was a terrorist, a single terrorist, who didnt kill in the name of a religion or ethnic group, for two hours. If he suddenly has a mass following of people and they are killing in the name of Buddha (no offense to Buddhist, I honestly dont know how they worship in SK) or whatever his religion was then yes they would have a certain term reserved for them as well.

What distinguishes Muslims from these people is their actions and sometimes appearance too, so people who have little knowledge or background in Islam do unIslamic things which make them stand out from practising Muslims. I think it has more to do with what the media wish to portray, because all too often a person who calls themselves a 'Muslim' on TV is seen to represent all of the Muslim population.

Again this is my point, please show the world what a real muslim is and how they can be distinguished from these radicals. The only way to do this is to SAY OR DO something. Sitting back and holding a summit once or twice or even 10 times in two years isnt worth the time.

The same goes for siding with the west or being labelled as liberal; Islam does not teach unjustice so there is no reason to label people as such. The only people who would do so are probably the terrorists themselves who have little understanding of Islam.

That is good to hear, to bad when these people say things the only people who speak up are the once that you are saying are terrorist themselves. There was actually a thread on here a while back about a british imam being an apostate because he spoke of peace with the west and an end to terrorism, what is really sad is that many on this forum agreed with that.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yes Muslims need to speak out MORE. Why? Because unfortunately, although Muslims are speaking out, it's not enough. You have still the big fish to beat that's making a huge impact on how people view us. And that's the media. The best way a Muslim can speak out, I think, is to actually start acting like one. Action speaks louder than words. The attacks made by so called Muslims, blast such a tremendous impact that cannot be erased. I think we could make a bigger difference if it was more action than political talk.

All responsibility does not just fall onto our shoulders. Please let's not assume that. Non-Muslims have just as much responsibility as we do. Your probably wondering why. Well I'll you. It's because the media and people in politics which include non-Muslims, have a bigger impact on the world that crosses to everyones T.V. screen. So when you, as a Non-Muslim learn something about Islam that is the complete opposite of what we see, it's just as important you let people know. It's not fair that we have to be told to do more while at the same time Muslims are being pounded on, physically, mentally, and emotionally. The average Muslim does a lot, but you don't see it. Unless your the one who's being told. Just like here on the forums. You don't need to look far and wide. Just take a look at your fellow Muslims around you, ask them questions. Anyways that's my rant, if it makes sense at all. Cause I just wrote that off the top of my head in a few seconds lol.

Peace

 

[Agnostic]

A beheading in the name of anything that would listen, if one were to live under such circumstances.. No I am not dodging the point. I am disgusted by what America does in the name of anything it will make up as its slogan for the day. You have wasted enough of my time. All is fair in war! Again for the last time.. don't want to lose your head or those of your kids... don't send them there... not even to promenade and take in the scenery...


peace!

Silence= Acceptance and Approval
Some seem to take it much further

Peace ?

 

[جوري]

Silence= Acceptance and Approval
Some seem to take it much further

Peace ?

I agree... That silence would be acceptance and approval.. I don't think they should be silent or approving! 67703 Iraqis have died to date-- or does human life not mean anything to you unless it is an American life? I think the Iraqis should do whatever it takes to be rid themselves of this occupation. I am sure you'd do the same if your country were occupied!

And yes! Peace upon people who seek peace --not imperialism and stealing the wealth of other nations while killing their sons and daughters! Do people not grieve as you do? What is wrong with this picture?

 

[NoName55]

It is sickening to see how some mods fawn over kuffar, and delete any post that would be disliked by them, while kafirs have a frree hand, can desecrate any thread they wish to in any section

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I have a request, can you guys also delete posts that are not by Muslims, which are ALSO insulting. Delete mine too, i know itll happen.

Peace

 

[Muezzin]

Jazzy, I'll look through the thread inshallah and delete the relevant posts. It will also help me a great deal in general if you used the report function for specific posts.

It is sickening to see how some mods fawn over kuffar, and delete any post that would be disliked by them, while kafirs have a frree hand, can desecrate any thread they wish to in any section

If you do not approve of a post, please report it, and a mod will delete it if it is breaking the rules.

Off-topic posts in world affairs are deleted whoever posts them, Muslim or non-Muslim.

If you have any further queries, please PM me.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Wilber,

Muhammad
London's Muslims Condemn Extremists
Not a single person was named as a terrorist.
That is my point

I don't really see what difference it makes whether they call them terrorists or extremists; so long as they have condemned them, that's what matters.

Regarding your quotes that you managed to find, certain people may come to this forum with strong feelings or beliefs about particular issues. While we try our utmost to ensure that messages posted are acceptable according to Islamic standards, we cannot always catch misstatements. Our disclaimer reads: Please remember that we are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this Forum. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email or private message. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

So young, impressionable Muslims may come to this forum, but we as a forum do not promote terrorist actions. You will find much material proving this across the forum - threads that put the concept of war in Islam into perspective, and explaining how unjustice is not a teaching of Islam.

Looking at the specific quotes you mentioned, I can understand your concerns, but I didn't really see open justification of terrorism; the Chechen hostages one wasn't actually saying that killing innocent people is right. As for the Bin Laden thread - those weren't the words of the original poster but rather (supposedly) an ex-cia agent.

I would encourage you or anyone else that whenever you see a post as praising or justifying terrorism, you report that post so that it can be removed.

 

[noodles]

Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE

To work something out, it has to be the responsibility of both parties to acknowledge that they've done wrong and the willingness to accept it.

You ask any Muslim that tries his best to pray his 5 daily prayers and they will say Islam is against suicide. Any Muslim knows that. However, do the countries where the Islamic community is a minority know that? Not very likely. I find it meaningless to have to repeat myself time after time when talking to strangers on this matter. Many of these individuals have got a mindset which reads "Jihad=Suicide bombers" & "Islam=Jihad." Now I ask you, if your very own people won't find the positives in Islam, then who is to say that "Us" shouting in their ears is going to make any difference?

Yes, media is partially responsible for this lateral of thinking in people. But it is the audiences fault too for the unwillingness to accept any other way.

That said, my opinion, according to what I have heard from many of lectures and reading a handful of hadiths and from my limited Quranic knowledge, is that the people of Iraq, Somalia, afghanistan are much to blame themselves. Our beloved Prophets teachings are to have patience even in the direst of situations and what I see at times is that is exactly what these people are lacking. Not to mention tolerance. In someway I sympathize with them. When some individual (Be it American or their own kind) kills their only anchor to this world, they go mad; And the only outlet for this anger is through violence. I can be 90% sure in some what or this other, it will traumatize you and conclusively lead you to hatred towards your opposition.

Sadly, many folks don't know who their enemy is, and as a result they follow the crowd and take their respective positions and do their job.

Our beloved prophet was the best example for us and by studying his lifestyle and the people around him, we can conclude that they were the most patient of men[and women]. So much so that when the Kuffar[Non-believers] would take a Muslim woman and tie her leg to one horse and tie her other leg to the other and make both the horses run in opposite directions, ALL the while making her son watch his mother being tortured. But not once did they take revenge. They remained patient and watched the horrors taking place in front of their eyes.

Now that is what I call patience. Can you tell me you can go through that and still maintain your sanity?

As for the 'Death to America' and 'Death to Israel' chants, I can't say I blame them. With the occupation of Iraq it set itself up for all the anger. What these people needed was an outlet, and who else to blame than to the ones that will not leave their country? In some incongruous way, it all fits.

What is the solution?

Perhaps [keep in mind the optimal word is "Perhaps"] the best way would be to pull your troops home. If that is done and the 'Death to America' and 'Death to Israel' still continues, then by all means have protesters in America march out with their 'Death to Iraq' and 'Death to Iran' signs.

(Despite of the crude humor, I can't seem to think of a better solution)

You talk about scholars speaking up against militant groups, but I ask you, what is the purpose behind it? Many O people relate terrorists and Islam to be the same and if we try to prove them otherwise, it seems they consider it blasphemous.

Part of the problem is the media(Yes it sounds repititious) The term jihad is so grossly tangled with terrorism that any person who hears the term will automatically[and no joke about it] will think of terrorism. If the media does this with so much ease, why can it not do so the other way around. There are Quite a number of lecturers out there who have spoken the true meaning of Jihad. Why are they not shown on the Media?

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings MTAFFI,

Why would you consider "extreme" to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough?

Because that is not the only reason. Many Muslims have and still are speaking out, yet people have to also be willing to listen to them and be active in seeking out their views. People have to stop using the media as their only source of information about Muslims. People have to stop believing misconceptions that others spread and verify for their ownselves. People should look at the actual teachings of Islam and find out for themselves what it teaches. It's a two-way thing, not just dependent on Muslims trying to reach every doorstep.

Also, I have looked back at my posts and I dont see where I said it "all" comes down to any one particular thing, also I dont see where I ever said that "no" muslims speak out, in fact, I notice that I posted that some do, just not enough.

OK, thankyou for that clarification. I was merely pointing out that there are two extremes to the matter, not that you necessarily said it all comes down to one thing. And you did say "there are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up?", but it doesn't matter now that you have clarified your viewpoint.

Please show me an exaggeration with a recent event.. I am saying that there is occasional exageration or misrepresentation,

You admit there is occasional exaggeration or misrepresentation, that's fine.

but this can typically be figured out by watching more than one news station or following more than one source, which I would think most people do, otherwise how would we know of exaggeration or misrepresentation?

That is the question - how would you know whether something is exaggerated or misrepresented? Watching more than one news source might be a good start, although it would have to be a diverse range, rather than similar news agencies within the same country.

It is actually funny that you chose these as your sources because they you actually proved my point. Neither of the articles are even from the last 2 years.

I don't remember claiming to present recent news. I simply said that Muslims have already spoken out, and if that was two years ago then all the better for having spoken out sooner.

You look for Imams and scholars speaking out against this violence and the best you get is from over two years ago. Try to look up the last hate message by any of these groups that we are speaking of, I bet you can find one as recent as within the last 24 hours. Do you see the problem here, or am I just getting carpal tunnel for no reason?

Hate messages might always be on the release, but so are the condemnations if you wish to find them.
http://gulf-times.com/site/topics/a...=143352&version=1&template_id=57&parent_id=56
http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=2899_0_2_0_C
http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1046

It seems you may have a common case of denial, I suggest you take a look at the world around to to provide yourself with the medicine to fix this.

I was not denying anything; I was simply saying it was wrong to automatically assume things about Muslims. Facts and figures are all good and well, but claiming it is "common sense" is not.

I am not saying ALL crime are committed by muslims, and you are steering away from the original point of my post.

Well I thought it was an important point to clarify after reading your post. It is also important to bear in mind that other religious groups have also claimed to be acting in the name of their religion, as you pointed out earlier. The bottom line is that every time an act of injustice occurs, people should not automatically assume it must be a Muslim who is carrying out the commands of his religion.

Again this is my point, please show the world what a real muslim is and how they can be distinguished from these radicals. The only way to do this is to SAY OR DO something. Sitting back and holding a summit once or twice or even 10 times in two years isnt worth the time.

And how do you know that Muslims are not saying or doing something? I would agree with you that this is the right thing to do. But again your words seem to wander towards the extreme that Muslims are not doing anything. Perhaps it should be asked how many summits are required to satisfy the world? How many times must the message be repeated before it is believed? Would it really make terrorism go away?

That is good to hear, to bad when these people say things the only people who speak up are the once that you are saying are terrorist themselves.

Wouldn't it be worse if the people speaking out against the Imams were people knowledgeable in Islam?

There was actually a thread on here a while back about a british imam being an apostate because he spoke of peace with the west and an end to terrorism, what is really sad is that many on this forum agreed with that.

If I am thinking of the right thread, then that is not an accurate summary of what it was about. What angered people was not the vision to end terrorism, but the support and prayers he made for the British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Peace.

 

[MTAFFI]

Greetings MTAFFI,

Because that is not the only reason. Many Muslims have and still are speaking out, yet people have to also be willing to listen to them and be active in seeking out their views. People have to stop using the media as their only source of information about Muslims. People have to stop believing misconceptions that others spread and verify for their ownselves. People should look at the actual teachings of Islam and find out for themselves what it teaches. It's a two-way thing, not just dependent on Muslims trying to reach every doorstep.

I agree with this, and I think a lot of people are looking at Islam and what it teaches. I often see posts on here about Islams popularity growing, I myself have picked up the Quran to try and gain a better understanding. That said, since the root of the problem is within the Muslim community the solution must start there.

OK, thankyou for that clarification. I was merely pointing out that there are two extremes to the matter, not that you necessarily said it all comes down to one thing. And you did say "there are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up?", but it doesn't matter now that you have clarified your viewpoint.

Thank you for clarifying yourself, I agree with this

That is the question - how would you know whether something is exaggerated or misrepresented? Watching more than one news source might be a good start, although it would have to be a diverse range, rather than similar news agencies within the same country.

I think that the internet makes available to people a far broader range of news than TV ever could offer, and I would think that more people probably use the internet to get their news than television anyways.

I don't remember claiming to present recent news. I simply said that Muslims have already spoken out, and if that was two years ago then all the better for having spoken out sooner.

It is good that they spoke out, but my point is there isnt enough speaking out.

Hate messages might always be on the release, but so are the condemnations if you wish to find them.
http://gulf-times.com/site/topics/a...=143352&version=1&template_id=57&parent_id=56
http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=2899_0_2_0_C
http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1046

Good articles, glad to see this
The problem is it seems that these only get released after something happens, what about the in between, when there arent bombs going off? Of course the Muslim council of Britain is going to issue a statement, but what have they done afterwards to stop it from happening again? Same thing with the other two posts... However this should not take away from the fact that it is good that they at least said something.

The bottom line is that every time an act of injustice occurs, people should not automatically assume it must be a Muslim who is carrying out the commands of his religion.

I agree with this, and I would hope that nobody thinks like that

And how do you know that Muslims are not saying or doing something? I would agree with you that this is the right thing to do. But again your words seem to wander towards the extreme that Muslims are not doing anything. Perhaps it should be asked how many summits are required to satisfy the world? How many times must the message be repeated before it is believed? Would it really make terrorism go away?

I dont think that there is enough being done because the violence escalates day by day. I dont know how many summits, but I think that there should be a major one, where all the major figures present themselves to the world. Words alone wont make terrorism go away but it would be a start, and once we find out what works and doesnt work, then you go on from there.

Wouldn't it be worse if the people speaking out against the Imams were people knowledgeable in Islam?

They certainly present themselves to be knowledgable, otherwise how do you think that they manage to recruit even with the imams, as you say, condemning it all the time.

If I am thinking of the right thread, then that is not an accurate summary of what it was about. What angered people was not the vision to end terrorism, but the support and prayers he made for the British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Peace.

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/35483-dublin-imam-takes-fanatics.html

Here is the thread

Good talking with you, this proves to be very thought provoking and helpful