Silence, acceptance and approval

[Muhammad]

Hello MTAFFI,

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with this, and I think a lot of people are looking at Islam and what it teaches. I often see posts on here about Islams popularity growing, I myself have picked up the Quran to try and gain a better understanding. That said, since the root of the problem is within the Muslim community the solution must start there.

It is good to hear that you have started reading the Qur'an - I pray that you will find in it the answers you are looking for. I agree that the Muslim community do have a big role to play and there is always room for improvement in finding more ways to speak out effectively.

The problem is it seems that these only get released after something happens, what about the in between, when there arent bombs going off?

I am sure there are many articles and cases of condemning injustice even in between events, but they reach the headlines more easily when an event happens and people look for a response. At other times, it could be that they aren't sought out as much.

They certainly present themselves to be knowledgable, otherwise how do you think that they manage to recruit even with the imams, as you say, condemning it all the time.

I think the type of people that join them are those of the same mindset - they have had little grounding in the teachings of Islam and have perhaps been misled by various sources and their own misunderstanding. Often, enthusiasm plays a large role in young minds, where they will put passions and emotions before reason.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/35483-dublin-imam-takes-fanatics.html

Here is the thread

I can understand where you are coming from now, but I think it comes down to how different people perceive the same thing. As steve put it, "well I Imagen that the reason people reacted like this was not because he denounced violence, but rather because they assumed that he denounced strictness in religion under the guise of denouncing violence".

Good talking with you, this proves to be very thought provoking and helpful

It has been good talking with you too .

Peace.

 

[Woodrow]

It is difficult for non-Muslims to see that Muslims around the world are constantly speaking out against terrorism. Simply, because they have not been taught where to look.

Go to any Mosque of your choosing for Friday Jummah and the overwhelming odds are you will hear the Imam denouncing terrorism.

Look into the archives of nearly any Muslim's PC and you will find videos such as this:

http://media.putfile.com/Islam-denounces-terrorism-Video-med-sizewmv

Which in turn we as individuals pass on to our Brothers and Sisters. Unlike many religions we place responsibility onto the individual, as Muslims it is our duty to teach our Brothers and Sister if we see them acting in a manner we see as being un-Islamic.

Many Muslims are acting against Terrorism as Individuals. But, the only way you will see this is by taking time to get to know the Muslims in your community and learn what they are doing.

Yes, there are frequent large scale demonstrations by Muslims against terrorism. But, keep in mind we often do not have access into areas where Terrorists are. We also have language barriers from nation to nation. there is little point in having any massive anti-terrorism rally here in the US as it is not likely many American Muslims would be Terrorists. So such a rally would not reach those it needs to reach.

Millions of Imams world wide speak against terrorism daily, but to hear them you would need to visit the Mosque. Oddly, people seem to have difficulty in ever seeing what goes on in the majority of the world"s Mosques. But, let one Imam in any isolated Mosque in any tiny corner of the world speak in favor of terrorism and it will be on World News before the Imam even finishes speaking.

The terrorists are not known to the majority of the world's Muslims we have no idea where or how to contact them, then You do. we do not know who is a terrorist until after he is caught.

I know you will say just look in the paper, why don't we send people to Palestine and talk to them. Actually, Muslims do go to Palestine to speak against Terrorism. but it is difficult as a Muslim can not get a Visa to enter Israel. It is almost impossible for a Muslim to get into Palestine.

So where are the anti-Terrorism activists in Islam. We are no further than the Muslim closest to you. What do we do to denounce it? We continuously pass the word to all of our Brothers and Sisters when ever we can.

Sometimes I think the non-Muslim world Believes we have a big world wide center from which terrorism is spread out to all of the Muslims world wide. Sorry, that does not exist or else I did not make the mailing list. Now the next question that we get asked "As a Muslim, what are you going to do about Iran?" My answer is: "As a White person what are you going to do about Iran, they are your White Brethren?" I have no more chance of reaching a single person or organization in Iran then you do. Besides that I do not speak a word of Farsi and would be unable to speak to most Iranians.

Besides, it is only some of Iran's policies I oppose. I favor them living the life they choose as long as they do not wrongfully attack other people.

 

[MTAFFI]

Hello MTAFFI,

Thank you for your reply.

I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time. I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?

 

[Woodrow]

I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time.I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?

I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site,

I will not talk publicly about any member. I will just say that we do not air our disagreements publicly.

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?

Engage in conversations such as this one on sites like this one. All of us to just help each other see that it is an error to attribute the wrong of some people to all members of the group.

 

[noodles]

I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time. I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?

I believe part of the problem is that many people here hold grudges against other people because of their views. I'd even go further and say that they enjoy themselves when other people who seem to be getting bashed on the other side. Hence, the silence. I agree that everyone has a difference of opinion but some individuals don't know the concept of 'let go'. I regret to inform you that our beloved prophet taught us to be sincere in our arguments and us muslims have lost all that.

The silence on this board also stems from generalization. (Once again I dont mean to group anyone here) Many people relate Jihad and Terrorism to have the same definition. In a similar manner many members regard any opposition against Islam to be related to the US [More so the west]. What I'm trying to convey is that this is a clear sign of frustration of having to constantly repeat something.

If both parties have stopped criticizing each other's belief [likely never to happen] then it would be the beginning of a spectacular era. The whole end of times issue plays a major role in this too. Muslims believe Mahdi (a.s) will come and Jews believe their Mosiach to descend and likewise, Christians expect Jesus to descend from the heavens. In a concrete manner, all three parties are preparing for an unevitable battle. Anyway, that is an issue for another thread.

 

[MTAFFI]

I believe part of the problem is that many people here hold grudges against other people because of their views. I'd even go further and say that they enjoy themselves when other people who seem to be getting bashed on the other side. Hence, the silence. I agree that everyone has a difference of opinion but some individuals don't know the concept of 'let go'. I regret to inform you that our beloved prophet taught us to be sincere in our arguments and us muslims have lost all that.

The silence on this board also stems from generalization. (Once again I dont mean to group anyone here) Many people relate Jihad and Terrorism to have the same definition. In a similar manner many members regard any opposition against Islam to be related to the US [More so the west]. What I'm trying to convey is that this is a clear sign of frustration of having to constantly repeat something.

If both parties have stopped criticizing each other's belief [likely never to happen] then it would be the beginning of a spectacular era. The whole end of times issue plays a major role in this too. Muslims believe Mahdi (a.s) will come and Jews believe their Mosiach to descend and likewise, Christians expect Jesus to descend from the heavens. In a concrete manner, all three parties are preparing for an unevitable battle. Anyway, that is an issue for another thread.

I think that you could be right in some aspects, I think that grudges with between certain people could create a silence, but when a Muslim sees another Muslim condoning or brushing off the violence that we are talking about, do they not have an obligation to intervene and set the record straight? I think it would be really helpful, I know whenever I see violence of any type, no matter who posts it, I will condemn it and speak out against it for what is right, without that, in my eyes, the line between right and wrong will slowly disappear. I know everytime that there is a discussion on here about civilian death or suicide attacks there will typically be at least 1 muslim to come forward and say it is wrong, this usually in turn makes me think that not everyone is a certain way and really helps me to cool out and take a different view of the situation (not agree with the others side) and realize it is ignorance and stupidity talking, not Islam.

 

[wilberhum]

Maybe there is some hope.

Mass rally against Pakistan mosque http...eres/6F687535-A61D-441D-AC8C-E5B25000F1BF.htm

Tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets of Karachi to show their opposition to a radical mosque which has begun an anti-vice campaign in the capital, Islamabad.
Mazhar Hussain, a Karachi police official, said about 100,000 people had attended the rally, with many protesters chanting, "No to extremism".
Lal Masjid announced earlier this month that a court had been set up to deliver justice according to Sharia Islamic law. Clerics at the mosque threaten to retaliate with suicide bombers if the government tried to suppress the movement.

It is really scary that Clerics would use suicide bombers. :raging:

 

[Abu Zakariya]

I think it is really ignorant to say that anything isn't being done.

Except for the fatwas against terrorism, there are some that are involved in actually stopping terrorists and showing potential terrorists that they are wrong. One example is Shayhk al-Ubaykan who is involved in reforming those that were arrested for being potential terrorists.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:

(Q) How does one evaluate ideological modification of wanted suspects, some of whom are imprisoned, and how is this process of thought-purification conducted?

(A) The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.

And these are the scholars. As for outcry among regular Muslims, there have been many demonstrations (which is sometimes what I've heard non-Muslims calling for), where hundreds of thousands of Muslims have gathered to demonstrate against terrorism.

 

[Muhammad]

I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

People do sometimes step out of line, but I have seen many times that these views are opposed. Muslims do disagree when Islam is being portrayed inaccurately and you are right that they are obliged to do so.

Incidentally, today I came across some booklets that were being distributed for free, entitled: 'Islam, A Religion of Terror?'. And this was being done in light of recent local and world events, covering topics such as Jihad, the media, suicide bombings and extremism. It was quite reassuring to see that Muslims are still working on clearing up misconceptions and building bridges, and that everyone is working in their own way. Quite a good timing considering we were talking about it in this thread!

Peace.

 

[MTAFFI]

I think it is really ignorant to say that anything isn't being done.

No one said that

Except for the fatwas against terrorism, there are some that are involved in actually stopping terrorists and showing potential terrorists that they are wrong. One example is Shayhk al-Ubaykan who is involved in reforming those that were arrested for being potential terrorists.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:

(Q) How does one evaluate ideological modification of wanted suspects, some of whom are imprisoned, and how is this process of thought-purification conducted?

(A) The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.

And these are the scholars. As for outcry among regular Muslims, there have been many demonstrations (which is sometimes what I've heard non-Muslims calling for), where hundreds of thousands of Muslims have gathered to demonstrate against terrorism.

Do you feel the Muslim community is doing enough, if so why? If not why?

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Do you feel the Muslim community is doing enough, if so why? If not why?

Basically all Muslims I know, especially the ones in leadership positions, have spoken out against terrorism and tried to explain how it isn't Islamically correct.

Of course there are people with the extreme opinions, but they are obscure and we need to reach out to them and convince them to stop. As you see, in Saudi Arabia the scholars are involved in reforming the people with these extreme opinions and the scholars and Muslim leaders are trying to educate the Muslims in general. But, because there are still Muslims that have these opinions I would say no, we aren't doing enough. Enough isn't being done until we see a stop to the various suicide bombings killing innocent civilians etcetera. Then we will have done enough.

 

[MTAFFI]

But, because there are still Muslims that have these opinions I would say no, we aren't doing enough. Enough isn't being done until we see a stop to the various suicide bombings killing innocent civilians etcetera. Then we will have done enough.

So the real questions should be, what can Muslims do more? Also what can non Muslims do to help the Muslims with this? I realize that nothing huge will probably come of this, since we are just posting on a forum on a website, but I just like to gather this type of information for intelligent conversation and for my own personal reasons

 

[Abu Zakariya]

I would say that Muslims should refer to the mainstream scholars that are accepted by the Muslim community and they should point to their fatwas against terrorism so that they know the Islamic position on this issue.

Also, I might mention that Shaykh al-Ubaykan said in one of his fatwas (which you can read here), that Muslims should cooperate with the police to stop potential acts of terrorism. Read the fatwa because he gives a few guidelines to Muslims what they can do.

As for what non-Muslims can do, I would say that since a lot of these Muslims with extreme opinions acquire these opinions in the first place because of a feeling that Muslims are opressed in the world and that the West is against them, you could show them that you are a good person and don't have anything against Muslims so that he can see for himself how it is. That way, he can see that everything isn't black and white and that all non-Muslims aren't the enemies of Muslims.

 

[Muezzin]

There does need to be less of a condescending attitude towards genuine Muslim grievances, too. Take Lebanon for example - the (stereo)typical non-Muslim reaction? Something to the effect of: 'Silly Lebanese, they shouldn't have started it, they deserve what they get and Israel is completely justified'

Or when British servicemen were caught beating up Iraqi children on camera? 'Silly kids, they shouldn't have provoked them, the soldiers' actions are justified' - that sort of reaction is evident in certain posts on this forum, and disturbs me. To me, it's just the same as Muslims denying the existence of certain terrorist groups who kill based on some twisted interpretation of Islam. One extreme is the 'crazy militant Muslim' and the other is the 'crazy far right Westerner', and both tend to either flatly deny, or justify wrongdoing.

So, yes, Muslims do need to continue publically condemning atrocities committed by so-called 'Islamic' terrorists, as well as continue to privately teach the Muslim community that such actions are wrong and have no basis in Islam. At the same time, there needs to be genuine understanding of legitimate Muslim grievances, not offhand sarcastic remarks to the effect of 'peh, they deserved it'. I mean, I'm pretty a dang laidback kinda guy, so if caustic remarks like that deeply offend me, imagine how crazy militants react.

 

[Keltoi]

There does need to be less of a condescending attitude towards genuine Muslim grievances, too. Take Lebanon for example - the (stereo)typical non-Muslim reaction? Something to the effect of: 'Silly Lebanese, they shouldn't have started it, they deserve what they get and Israel is completely justified'

Or when British servicemen were caught beating up Iraqi children on camera? 'Silly kids, they shouldn't have provoked them, the soldiers' actions are justified' - that sort of reaction is evident in certain posts on this forum, and disturbs me. To me, it's just the same as Muslims denying the existence of certain terrorist groups who kill based on some twisted interpretation of Islam. One extreme is the 'crazy militant Muslim' and the other is the 'crazy far right Westerner', and both tend to either flatly deny, or justify wrongdoing.

So, yes, Muslims do need to continue publically condemning atrocities committed by so-called 'Islamic' terrorists, as well as continue to privately teach the Muslim community that such actions are wrong and have no basis in Islam. At the same time, there needs to be genuine understanding of legitimate Muslim grievances, not offhand sarcastic remarks to the effect of 'peh, they deserved it'. I mean, I'm pretty a dang laidback kinda guy, so if caustic remarks like that deeply offend me, imagine how crazy militants react.

On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.

 

[MTAFFI]

On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.

I have to agree with you Keltoi, I have done the same thing numerous times myself. I will try to be better about that, I will be interested to see the different reactions that may be recieved.

 

[Woodrow]

In my opinion what non-Muslims can do to help is recognize it is not a Muslim problem per say. the causes of the problem go beyond the religion. The problem is the conditions in the mid-eastern countries. It is true that in the Mid-East the majority of the people are Muslim. but the fact they are Muslim is not the cause of terrorism. The problem would exist if the conditions were the same and the people were of any religion.

The majority of the Muslims identified as terrorists come from the mid- East. But, it is only a small minority of the worlds Muslims that are from the Mid-East. It would be far better to label them as Mid_Eastern Terrorist and not as Islamic terrorists if labels are to be made. But, in my opinion terrorist are just that terrorists, with no qualifying adjective.

A Muslim terrorist from Saudi Arabia is no different then a Anglo-Saxon terrorist in the USA who blows up abortion clinics. It is not because he calls himself a Christian that causes him to do it, it is because he is a terrorist.

Instead of asking what can the Muslims do to stop Muslims from committing acts, the question should be what can people do to stop people from being terrorists.

But, as Muslims we are doing things to reach our Brothers and sisters. Only problem is we can only reach those who are sincere Muslims and who practice Islam as it is to be practiced. For that matter if all Muslims practiced Islam there would be no Muslim terrorists. Now, can we do More? Of course we can, more can always be done. The question is what can we do that would be effective?

I believe an important step that all people can help with is to first drop the labels. Stop referring to them as Muslim Terrorists and call them what they are TERRORISTS.

A loss of the label in itself would eliminate some misguided wannabes who are trying to seek glory. the label alone is enough to bring some wackos out of the wood work.

 

[Muezzin]

On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.

There's nothing wrong with seeing things from all sides. It's an admirable quality which requires bravery in certain circumstances since it threatens to upset the (social) status quo. But there's a difference between that and flatly denying the veracity of any side but our own. We're all guilty of such bias to some degree, especially when it comes to politics, but we can all improve too.

I have to agree with you Keltoi, I have done the same thing numerous times myself. I will try to be better about that, I will be interested to see the different reactions that may be recieved.

Thank you. It would be very much appreciated.

I try to stay as even-handed as possible when it comes to world affairs, but if I slip up, don't hesitate to tell me.

Maybe if we can all learn that understanding is not the same as approval, we wouldn't see so much conflict in this particular section for starters. I've seen Muslims denounce terrorism while saying that terrorists do nevertheless have legitimate reasons - however, the way Middle Eastern terrorists go about solving problems is not only completely un-Islamic and immoral, it's also counter-productive. Some non-Muslims misinterpret this understanding of reasons as an approval of methods. I guess that in itself is understandable, but it's still incorrect to assume just because, say, someone understands why a thief stole a guy's wallet, that that someone must be sympathising with the thief.

I mean, I can understand why people become heroin addicts, or commit suicide, but that doesn't mean I approve of their actions.

Maybe I'm overreacting. It is something I've noticed with some people, but maybe they are exceptions.

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Who are we to tell how palestinians or iraqis how they should be fighting? If we are so righteous as to judge them, then we should be there fighting with them, as long as we sit in our comfortable chairs, we should really shut up, we don't know what is it like when you wake up in the morning and your home is buldozed to the ground and you have no idea how are you gonna survive, or when you loved ones being taken away and tortured, we can only imagine.
Here is an idea - why don't all of ya righteous ones go fight in iraq or palestine, go face world sole superpower and see how it's like and then come back and rant if you'll be alive and mentally well(unlikely).

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

in Saudi Arabia the scholars are involved in reforming the people with these extreme opinions and the scholars and Muslim leaders are trying to educate the Muslims in general.

Are they also educating about their corrupt un-islamic saudi government, sitting in golden toilets, spending billions on yachts and saying -"no jihad in palestine", housing soldiers who go and rape iraqis in a neighbour muslim country? I wonder what they say, actually I don't, puppet imams and their fatwas shouldn't even bother normal muslims with some self-esteem and at least
little bit of pride.