Simple, logical arguments to prove the existence of God

[barney]

You run into this idea every now and then on these boards and I can understand where it comes from. I used to believe the opposite (for many years), that nobody truly believes in a God and that people just pretend to for the communal feelings and cultural norms. Only later did I realize people actually *DO* believe in these Gods. It scared me a little when I realized this.

I still believe a LOT, perhaps even the majority of god believers are not so sure in their beleifs. I sometimes like to test some of them. For example find somebody who believes that the end of the world is nigh, and "knows" that the rapture will come by such and such a date. Offer them $500 today for them to deed you all their stuff after that so called end of the world date they believe in so strongly. If the date is true, it'd be foolish of them not to agree. But they won't... because they don't actually truly believe what they claim to.

There is a funny group of folks who go around offering these people pet insurance, saying they'll rescue and care for their pets after they are raptured for $x today. Another great idea. Don't they want their pets cared for? Yet, suprise!, nobody goes for it. Because they are only pretending to believe.

Rapture Ready Pets would prove that not a universal Pygo.

A group of atheists charge $59 a year to insure pets will be looked after post-rapture. They state that once the trib happens they will collect the pet from any mainland US address and look after it. They affirm their members are all fully fleged atheists who will definatly be left behind post rap.

They have made a nice little earner out of it.:hmm:

 

[Skavau]

so you don't believe that the universe may have been created by a infinite intelligent being?

It might have been. There is no overly persuasive reason to believe that it was and we have no empirical evidence that it was.

Frankly, I just think atheists are allergic to the word "god".

What does that even mean?

 

[Uthman]

Just as advice to Brothers and Sisters, please don't spend ages and ages debating the existence of God with atheists. In accordance with the "Qur'anic methodology" which I spoke about here, you should spend no more than a few minutes presenting your argument and then move on to do something more worthwhile.

Let me remind you that, as far as Islam is concerned, the "issue" of the existence of a creator is really a non-issue. It's self-evident. It's a given. It's part of our Fitrah. Look around you. Look at the beauty of the universe - the magnificence of the sun as it sets, the planets, the stars. Look at your own selves and the complexity of your own bodies. As Ibn Taymiyyah once said, how does one set about proving the existence of a being, for which everything proves it's existence? The only thing that isn't intuitively obvious is the exact nature of this creator and his attributes (such as benevolence) and for that we need revelation. The final, uncorrupted revelation which was sent to the whole of mankind is the Qur'an. How do we prove that the Qur'an is a revelation from God? By demonstrating it's miraculous nature. In the process, you will also have implicitly proven the existence of God which is relevant if you happen to be presenting your argument to an atheist (as opposed to say, a theist who belongs to another religion).

Atheism has been around for a long time, but interestingly, the rise of atheism as something serious and intellectual is a more recent phenomenon than you might think. The first publication of atheistic thought in the English language was written by Percy Shelley who died as 'recently' as 1822.

No offence to any atheists or agnostics reading by the way. Feel free to reply to this post, but I'm not really interested in a debate.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The first publication of atheistic thought in the English language was written by Percy Shelley who died as 'recently' as 1822.

I'm doubtful it was the first. It may have been the first widespread and well read, and for good reason. Before around that time they used to kill people for blasphemy and burn witches and other infidels at the stake. This is sort of like when Ahmadinejad said there are no homosexuals in Iran. There are plenty. They just don't want to be slaughtered so they are in the closet.

 

[barney]

Agree with Pygo.

Although many theists are happy to die for their faith. Atheists, knowing that we have one life, are more reluctant wasting it defending their beleif, because, at the end of the day, it really dosnt matter.

Atheists are certainly more outspoken in this century, buts that due to Theism rocketing the world to its destruction, over who's invisible deity is more mighty.

 

[Musliman]

I'm doubtful it was the first. It may have been the first widespread and well read, and for good reason. Before around that time they used to kill people for blasphemy and burn witches and other infidels at the stake. This is sort of like when Ahmadinejad said there are no homosexuals in Iran. There are plenty. They just don't want to be slaughtered so they are in the closet.

LGBT people make up generally approximately 10% of any population, we cannot say they exist there and not there, or whatever, this is a general estimate

 

[Supreme]

LGBT people make up generally approximately 10% of any population, we cannot say they exist there and not there, or whatever, this is a general estimate

I can assure you, gay people make up far less than 10% of the population, They make up 1% at most, if that.

 

[Froggy]

Just as advice to Brothers and Sisters, please don't spend ages and ages debating the existence of God with atheists. In accordance with the "Qur'anic methodology" which I spoke about here, you should spend no more than a few minutes presenting your argument and then move on to do something more worthwhile.

Let me remind you that, as far as Islam is concerned, the "issue" of the existence of a creator is really a non-issue. It's self-evident. It's a given. It's part of our Fitrah. Look around you. Look at the beauty of the universe - the magnificence of the sun as it sets, the planets, the stars. Look at your own selves and the complexity of your own bodies. As Ibn Taymiyyah once said, how does one set about proving the existence of a being, for which everything proves it's existence? The only thing that isn't intuitively obvious is the exact nature of this creator and his attributes (such as benevolence) and for that we need revelation. The final, uncorrupted revelation which was sent to the whole of mankind is the Qur'an. How do we prove that the Qur'an is a revelation from God? By demonstrating it's miraculous nature. In the process, you will also have implicitly proven the existence of God which is relevant if you happen to be presenting your argument to an atheist (as opposed to say, a theist who belongs to another religion).

Atheism has been around for a long time, but interestingly, the rise of atheism as something serious and intellectual is a more recent phenomenon than you might think. The first publication of atheistic thought in the English language was written by Percy Shelley who died as 'recently' as 1822.

No offence to any atheists or agnostics reading by the way. Feel free to reply to this post, but I'm not really interested in a debate.

As science progressed, more people thought the existence can be expšlained using natural methods. Before major breakthroughs in physics and biology an atheist simply couldn't argue with a theist and propably woulnd't have a reason to argue.

 

[tango92]

a home grown African doesnt know that there is land outside the shores of his continent.

with human civilisation being so intwined with the concept and nature of God follows that this (coherent) information must have come from somewhere. in this case only God can reveal that info.

 

[Sampharo]

Just as advice to Brothers and Sisters, please don't spend ages and ages debating the existence of God with atheists. In accordance with the "Qur'anic methodology" which I spoke about here, you should spend no more than a few minutes presenting your argument and then move on to do something more worthwhile.....

Barakallahu Feek and Jazaka Khairan for this post.

It is truly an advice for brothers and sisters to take notably and understand, that it takes a really high level of self-denial, delibarate discount of overwhelming evidence, and sheer arrogance to arrive at athiesm as a belief. So if you wish to disprove an argument or too, that is fine, but there is no need to indulge their rediculously silly debates that is just too devoid of common sense and sincerity to bother.

As science progressed, more people thought the existence can be expšlained using natural methods. Before major breakthroughs in physics and biology an atheist simply couldn't argue with a theist and propably woulnd't have a reason to argue.

As a matter of fact the scientific knowledge present today have done nothing except weaken the theories athiests use to base their belief in chaotic chance existence, and prove more and more previously unexplained facts mentioned in the Quran.

Your very foundation of this debate as in to discuss if you can "prove God exist" is self-contradicting to your entire belief system that is fundamentally based on unproven theories. Athiests are more than happy to point like children at the obvious and say "there's nothing more to it" and call it a theory: "Big bang, natural selection, etc." or take hundred year old assumptions already disproven and push it hard as facts: "evolution, etc.". When challenged for proof, athiests declare "it's a hypothesis and a sound one till now".

However when God is mentioned, the coin is flipped on its back: NO to authentic witness and documentation evidence, NO to logical evidence, NO to argumentative resolutions that have no rebuttal... You only ask for philosophical evidence (an oxymoron by design) or physical evidence (again a hidden self-contradiction), and amazingly you have not a shred of the five types of evidence to support your own beliefs, which are by analysis so nonsensical, it is amazing that any of you are listened to by even the most feeble of minds.

May they one day "grow up", for it is truly a waste.

 

[Skavau]

Barakallahu Feek and Jazaka Khairan for this post.

It is truly an advice for brothers and sisters to take notably and understand, that it takes a really high level of self-denial, delibarate discount of overwhelming evidence, and sheer arrogance to arrive at athiesm as a belief. So if you wish to disprove an argument or too, that is fine, but there is no need to indulge their rediculously silly debates that is just too devoid of common sense and sincerity to bother.

Perhaps, if at any point you were to bother to look up the definition of atheism you would learn that it is not necessarily a belief. That it is generally a statement of unbelief.

You, by the way, are in the second part of this rant generalising approximately 20% of the entire planet. You have decreed all atheists as self-delusional and arrogant without a second thought. If I were to do this to Muslims I would rightly be considered at best ignorant - and atheists have even less in common that Muslims have.

For shame.

As a matter of fact the scientific knowledge present today have done nothing except weaken the theories athiests use to base their belief in chaotic chance existence, and prove more and more previously unexplained facts mentioned in the Quran.

Find me a single athiest on the planet who believes in a "chaotic chance existence".

You won't find one.

Your very foundation of this debate as in to discuss if you can "prove God exist" is self-contradicting to your entire belief system that is fundamentally based on unproven theories. Athiests are more than happy to point like children at the obvious and say "there's nothing more to it" and call it a theory: "Big bang, natural selection, etc." or take hundred year old assumptions already disproven and push it hard as facts: "evolution, etc.". When challenged for proof, athiests declare "it's a hypothesis and a sound one till now".

Atheism is not a belief system, it is at best a single belief or claim (there is no God) and at times, and for most it is simply a profession of disbelief.

Atheism has nothing to do with evolution or the origins of the universe. It has everything to do with whether you believe in a God or not.

And, please, can you tell me what "hundred year old assumptions already disproven" that atheists generally push as fact?

However when God is mentioned, the coin is flipped on its back: NO to authentic witness and documentation evidence, NO to logical evidence, NO to argumentative resolutions that have no rebuttal... You only ask for philosophical evidence (an oxymoron by design) or physical evidence (again a hidden self-contradiction), and amazingly you have not a shred of the five types of evidence to support your own beliefs, which are by analysis so nonsensical, it is amazing that any of you are listened to by even the most feeble of minds.

Atheism is not a set of beliefs.

Your insults are noted though. For shame. You mock your own "To teach, to learn" with a passive aggressive and frankly abusive handwaving away of people who disagree on a single point.

 

[Pygoscelis]

May they one day "grow up", for it is truly a waste.

Part of growing up is discarding fairy tales and fun fantasies your parents taught you, like Santa and the Easter Bunny, and God.

 

[AhlaamBella]

Part of growing up is discarding fairy tales and fun fantasies your parents taught you, like Santa and the Easter Bunny, and God.

Hardly sounds like a "simple logical argument" to me

 

[جوري]

Barakallahu Feek and Jazaka Khairan for this post.

It is truly an advice for brothers and sisters to take notably and understand, that it takes a really high level of self-denial, delibarate discount of overwhelming evidence, and sheer arrogance to arrive at athiesm as a belief. So if you wish to disprove an argument or too, that is fine, but there is no need to indulge their rediculously silly debates that is just too devoid of common sense and sincerity to bother.


.

Agreed indeed.. Atheists are capable of one vacuous comment if you have caught it once, what is the point of coming back for more? I think the sadder situation is really for them for wasting their life away on religious forums, firstly not only do they not enjoy their random meaningless lives, but they end up the butt of jokes and repeatedly for inability to carry a jointed adult conversation.. This is just a chance for them to behave like the un-evolved apes they know they are!

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

 

[Sampharo]

Perhaps, if at any point you were to bother to look up the definition of atheism you would learn that it is not necessarily a belief. That it is generally a statement of unbelief.

And the point you seem to be dodging is that their explanation of our existence is still fundamentally belief in the Big Bang, evolution, and natural selection.

However, I like very much that you prefer to declare clearly that athiests SHARE UNBELIEF and have very little shared to actually believe in.

You, by the way, are in the second part of this rant generalising approximately 20% of the entire planet.

Athiests are 7% at best, and reducing. Or were you trying to sneak in all those who write "unreligious" or simply refuse to announce their religion for fear of persecution, agnostics and those whose religions were made up and unrecognized by census bureau, and try to pass them all as athiests? For a group WITHOUT BELIEF and share very little, you were very quick to show solidarity, and still managed to display the typical lack of credibility. I am quite satisfied again.

You have decreed all atheists as self-delusional and arrogant without a second thought. If I were to do this to Muslims I would rightly be considered at best ignorant - and atheists have even less in common that Muslims have.

Muslims beliefs are fundamentally coherent and non-contradicting. A sane person might not believe in it as a whole but they will always utterly fail (as most athiests and others are failing on this forum daily) to find scientific contradictions in the Quran (so some are resorting to fabricating ones that are being exposed diligently as everyone can see)

Athiests fundamentally are contradicting themselves in every single sub category that defines their method of thinking, and are by definition practicing nothing more than attempts at casting doubt, that's all. So yes they are collectively self-dellusional (if they think that self-contradicting non-sense can be turned by argumentative force and misinformation into truth or knowledge or understanding) and arrogant (by fundamental analysis of their methods of communicating with everyone else).

Find me a single athiest on the planet who believes in a "chaotic chance existence".

Close your eyes and point to one, and he would be.

and for most it is simply a profession of disbelief.

And is that something you're actually beaming with pride over?
It doesn't matter that what you claim is disbelief, it is still fundamentally a BELIEF. You BELIEVE there is no God, and BELIEVE that everyone who does got it wrong and should be given the necessary doubts.

Why would you disagree with me then when I said, athiests are self-contradicting?!

Atheism has nothing to do with evolution or the origins of the universe.

No athiest does not subscribe and forcefully propagate evolution. You're only playing again with the whole crappy "we don't believe, we disbelieve".

Like I said before, it is amazing that you think even the feeblest of minds can fall for this rubbish.

You mock your own "To teach, to learn" with a passive aggressive and frankly abusive handwaving away of people who disagree on a single point.

There was nothing passive about my aggression. And athiests will receive respect and serious consideration the day they stop their illogical nonsense (which you as an example showed that you cannot see that "it's not belief, it's unbelief" is STILL a belief) and lack of sincerity and mockery in their arguments.

Will not hold my breath. AFter all, as you explained: "it's professional disbelief" so where would the sincerity or desire to understand anything come from.

I actually like this "professional disbelief" thing, it is amazing because it actually came from you as a definition. I would ask that people who ever think about debating athiests thinking that they are actually talking with someone who has a certain idea in mind, to be linked and directed to read this part right there, presented by an athiest in true form, so as to understand where they truly stand and learn that it is useless to debate, for they are "professional disbelievers".

I swear if I was the one who made it up, I could have been told off by the moderators for being too insulting.

Peace

 

[Musliman]

I can assure you, gay people make up far less than 10% of the population, They make up 1% at most, if that.

Are you serious ? Let's take the US as an example, this is the GLB people estimates , as you can see this ranges from 4.2% to 15.4% in one city only, furthermore it concerns openly homosexual people only, the closeted are not counted.

 

[Skavau]

And the point you seem to be dodging is that their explanation of our existence is still fundamentally belief in the Big Bang, evolution, and natural selection.

The Raelians are atheistic and do not share the beliefs on the origin of the universe that you claim all atheists agree upon.

However, I like very much that you prefer to declare clearly that athiests SHARE UNBELIEF and have very little shared to actually believe in.

I'm glad it pleases you so. Atheism is really a misnomer. It is not a 'group'. It is just a label we apply to people that do not profess belief in the existence of a God(s).

Athiests are 7% at best, and reducing.

Really? What statistics have you been reading? Almost all census or population statistics on trends in religious adherence suggest that irreligion, non-belief and atheism in general are on a consistent rise.

This is specifically true in many parts of Europe where Atheism, or at least non-religion in general could actually be a majority. I suggest you also click here.

Or were you trying to sneak in all those who write "unreligious" or simply refuse to announce their religion for fear of persecution, agnostics and those whose religions were made up and unrecognized by census bureau, and try to pass them all as athiests?

What are you talking about? Are you living in a parellel universe?

The population of the USA, I think until very recently had labelled atheists as their least trusted minority. In some states where fundamentalism and evangelism are very popular it can be extremely unhealthy to come out and state that you are an atheist (likewise with wicca). If there is any persecution going on preventing people from revealing their beliefs, it is against atheists and not for their favour.

In Europe there is no such persecution problem, and as a result you have much larger figures professing non-belief. Also I should note that many agnostics are also atheist - including myself.

For a group WITHOUT BELIEF and share very little, you were very quick to show solidarity, and still managed to display the typical lack of credibility. I am quite satisfied again.

Solidarity? I am speaking to you, on behalf of no-one else about some of the bigoted comments you made.

Muslims beliefs are fundamentally coherent and non-contradicting. A sane person might not believe in it as a whole but they will always utterly fail (as most athiests and others are failing on this forum daily) to find scientific contradictions in the Quran (so some are resorting to fabricating ones that are being exposed diligently as everyone can see)

I don't believe, in my time on here, I've seen any atheist come onto the forum and fabricate Islamic scripture. I have however, seen many Muslims on here make aggressive and underhanded insulting comments and threads directly at atheists. This is not a trait unique to this forum, or even remotely as bad as I have witnessed in other avenues - but there it remains.

Athiests fundamentally are contradicting themselves in every single sub category that defines their method of thinking, and are by definition practicing nothing more than attempts at casting doubt, that's all. So yes they are collectively self-dellusional (if they think that self-contradicting non-sense can be turned by argumentative force and misinformation into truth or knowledge or understanding) and arrogant (by fundamental analysis of their methods of communicating with everyone else).

This is nothing more than verbal bombasity with no substance.

And, I'm sorry (referencing the part in bold), but are you seriously suggesting that atheists communicate with people in a completely identical manner? That my methods of discussion are exactly the same as every other atheists? You realise most atheists are apathetic to religion, right? That most atheists you might meet on the street and have no idea of their persuasion?

Close your eyes and point to one, and he would be.

I'm waiting for some substance here. Please pinpoint me to a notable atheist that claims that everything is entirely random and chaotic.

And is that something you're actually beaming with pride over?

I like to remind people so often because apparently, everyone likes to forget it. They like to claim atheism is a religion, or a group of people with a series of beliefs. It is not and never was.

I don't beam it with pride, irrespectively.

It doesn't matter that what you claim is disbelief, it is still fundamentally a BELIEF. You BELIEVE there is no God, and BELIEVE that everyone who does got it wrong and should be given the necessary doubts.

No I don't.

I do not claim there is no God. I am merely unconvinced of the positive claim that a God must exist. I do not outright contend that all possible deities do not and cannot exist.

Go and observe the difference between strong and weak atheism.

No athiest does not subscribe and forcefully propagate evolution. You're only playing again with the whole crappy "we don't believe, we disbelieve".

Raelians.

The biological theory of evolution has nothing to do with atheism. To claim evolution is true has nothing to do with whether a God exists or not. The exact same is for the Big Bang. That was my point.

There are millions of theists that accept both evolution and the Big Bang.

There was nothing passive about my aggression. And athiests will receive respect and serious consideration the day they stop their illogical nonsense (which you as an example showed that you cannot see that "it's not belief, it's unbelief" is STILL a belief) and lack of sincerity and mockery in their arguments.

How is lacking a belief in any sense of the word the same as a belief? Doesn't that claim completely null the meaning of the word unbelief?

I actually like this "professional disbelief" thing, it is amazing because it actually came from you as a definition. I would ask that people who ever think about debating athiests thinking that they are actually talking with someone who has a certain idea in mind, to be linked and directed to read this part right there, presented by an athiest in true form, so as to understand where they truly stand and learn that it is useless to debate, for they are "professional disbelievers".

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Certainly nothing that I said.

 

[Danah]

Although many theists are happy to die for their faith. Atheists, knowing that we have one life, are more reluctant wasting it defending their beleif, because, at the end of the day, it really dosnt matter.

Interesting!
I am not here to debate, but this line of yours barney caught my attention.
Is it really not matter to you? You have one life, no more chance...suppose you live that whole one life and at the end you realized that all what you believed in was a lie and you are in front of God at the day of Judgment! will it still be not matter to you?

I am not expecting a long post from you, a simple yes or no with short paragraph is enough here.

 

[Musliman]

Interesting!
I am not here to debate, but this line of yours barney caught my attention.
Is it really not matter to you? You have one life, no more chance...suppose you live that whole one life and at the end you realized that all what you believed in was a lie and you are in front of God at the day of Judgment! will it still be not matter to you?

I am not expecting a long post from you, a simple yes or no with short paragraph is enough here.

Exactly, each individual on earth has only one chance, imagine that day, you'll be in front of Allah, the Supreme and the Greatest and you'll find out that truth came beside you and you decided to ignore it. Al hamdoulillah, Allah is very merciful, he can forgive anything except Asshirk, you ought to take it into consideration, and may Allah guide you

 

[Supreme]

Are you serious ? Let's take the US as an example, this is the GLB people estimates , as you can see this ranges from 4.2% to 15.4% in one city only, furthermore it concerns openly homosexual people only, the closeted are not counted.

One city is far too unreliable. It could be a heavily gay city, like Brighton, or it could have very few gay people in. Nevertheless, the gene for homosexuality is naturally rare- if it weren't, procreation would be a very ineffient task indeed.