Sinning

[Umar001]

I agree, it coule be either of the two

And if we look at it from the context of the rest of the scripture it is more likely to be an exclamation of surprise.

If a child saw its mother who the child thought to be dead it is possible the child would say Oh My G-d.

most people would agree that they have said similar things, to base Jesus to be G-d on something that is likely to be someone's surpise statement is like saying, I am blapheming if I say Oh My God Lord have mercy when someone brings me bad news.

It sounds like hopeful wishing, i think its noticeable that a preconditioned mind needs to be there in order to accept this is Thomas asserting divinity

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

If a child saw its mother who the child thought to be dead it is possible the child would say Oh My G-d.

I depends on the child, it is also possible that Thomas was not surprised, he had been told by his close friends jesus was alive, so he wouldnt have beens as surprised if know one else had told him.

I also believe that Thomas would not have said My lord "AND" my God if he was surprised, it doesnt sound to me like a suprise, My Lord alone or My God alone i agree sounds more of a surprise reaction, but to me, the AND is the key word.

I believe the OT and the NT was all writen by annointed men of God under the influence of the holy spirit. And i believe Thomas's words in his reaction was put there for a reason, i dnt think his reaction was of surprise, but of joy for seeing his Lord and God again.

You also cant assume people reacted in surprise bcak then, with the same words as we do. But what we do know is that is they used Lord and God when talking to him.

Peace

 

[Umar001]

I depends on the child, it is also possible that Thomas was not surprised, he had been told by his close friends jesus was alive, so he wouldnt have beens as surprised if know one else had told him.

Ok, lets break it down, you agree that we cant know for sure if this was suprise or not.

So we should look into the context, he believe Jesus to be dead, the people told them he wasnt but he didnt believe them hence the name doubting Thomas. So he would be suprised, because he didn't believe them.

And since the disciple Peter the Rock, actually when asked by Jesus as to who he thought Jesus was never said G-d, we can kinda see that at least he didnt believe Jesus to be G-d, Peter the Rock.

It kinda fits that Thomas was suprised. Moving on..

I also believe that Thomas would not have said My lord "AND" my God if he was surprised, it doesnt sound to me like a suprise, My Lord alone or My God alone i agree sounds more of a surprise reaction, but to me, the AND is the key word.

You also cant assume people reacted in surprise bcak then, with the same words as we do.

So if we cant be totally sure then, the and isn't that much of an importance, could jus be a different style.

I believe the OT and the NT was all writen by annointed men of God under the influence of the holy spirit. And i believe Thomas's words in his reaction was put there for a reason, i dnt think his reaction was of surprise, but of joy for seeing his Lord and God again.

Ok, nice thought though it doesnt seem to go with the context of scripture.

If it is possible bro, name me the authors who you believe to be annointed men of G-d. I would like to read into their lives and see if they lived upto that title.

But what we do know is that is they used Lord and God when talking to him.

A couple of other men were called lord to.
Who called Jesus G-d when talking to him?


The thing that just amazes me is that, Jesus' divinity is claimed from an instance in which most people would be in a state of suprise and would have said the same thing to any other human being.

Thats the proof for Jesus being G-d?

And yet when other disciples were asked by Jesus himself at a time of calmness and where no confusion in words could occour they didnt say he was G-d.

Anyhow, Peace be upon ya and your house hold.

Eesa

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

we can kinda see that at least he didnt believe Jesus to be G-d, Peter the Rock.

Jesus asked who do the people say i am, i think paul replied some say your a prohpet, and Jesus said who do you think i am, paul replied the messiah. No not God, i dont know the exact meaning of messiah.

It kinda fits that Thomas was suprised. Moving on..

People take it the way they want it i guess.

Ok, nice thought though it doesnt seem to go with the context of scripture.

Could u explain? ok so the scriptures tells us thomas needed to see Jesus to believe he was risen, but it still does not mean his reply was of surprise, there cud have been a surprise reaction, then these words to him acknowledging his Lord.

Like i said, for me its the AND, say it to yourself as if u were surprised, my lord and my God, it sounds to me more of an acknowlegdment rather than of surprise, and even if he did say it as a surprise, why would the words be there to confuse people?

Your right in saying if i thought some1 to be dead and seen them i would be surprised and probubly frightened, but in Gods presence there is no fear, this is another reason i think it was not surprise, i think u wud agree if Gid himself appeared to us, we would fall down from his glory and say My God or My Lord. or even My Lord and My God

 

[Umar001]

How about, cos we going off topic, make a thread post your views and why you believe that this verse of Thomas' proves Jesus is G-d and so on, but speak with the fellow Christians also before you post, take your time, I will take my time too, lol i normally do sorry about that, nd I will post what I see it as and why and then we view each others points ask any relevant questions and see how it goes, what we like of each others point we take and what we disagree on we leave behind.

Peace be upon ya

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

ok mate, awsome

God bless

 

[bint_muhammed]

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.



You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

look your getting this wrong our God isnt going to send us anyone to die fro us so our sins are forgiven, however he has sent us prophets so they can guide us on the right path! when we sin and are truly sorry for it (and Allah will know) he will forgive us only if we repent however if we dont we will be punished! Allah punishing someone for sinning, isnt wrong as he's our creater and has given us many chances in this world to put our wrongs right! sometimes you have to cruel to be kind!
hope it makes sense
peace!

 

[Woodrow]

One of the greatest difficulties we have in understanding the Bible is that the words are now in fairly modern English. Just using the words god and lord in that posting about Thomas. We are using what seems to be the closest English definition. But, to be more accurate we would have to go back to the Original Aramaic and understand what was meant and translated into God and Lord. Sadly I do not have any Aramaic text of that particular book. However, possibly some one here does. I do have the Greek text, but that is not the same. Reading the Greek Text in John 20-24 I am coming across something quite different. Perhaps I am reading the wrong verse or my Greek isn't very good.

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Hey i dont know how to post a new thread so i will post this here and yous can maybe move it? I asked some Questions and found...


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

 

[Woodrow]

Hey i dont know how to post a new thread so i will post this here and yous can maybe move it? I asked some Questions and found...


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

"Only God could take on the sins of the world" I believe we can agree on that sentence.

I also think we can agree that God(swt) is omnipotent and can do all things with just a thought. He only needs to will it and it is done.

 

[Crescent]

Dont you guys think that we are going off topic.

But personally, I believe there isnt concrete evidence in the Bible that states Jesus was the son of God.

Peace.

 

[rubiesand]

But, to be more accurate we would have to go back to the Original Aramaic and understand what was meant and translated into God and Lord. Sadly I do not have any Aramaic text of that particular book. However, possibly some one here does. I do have the Greek text, but that is not the same.

Yes, but wouldn't an Aramaic Gospel have been translated from the Greek? So one can never go back to the original Aramaic since the oldest Gospels are in Greek?

 

[Woodrow]

Yes, but wouldn't an Aramaic Gospel have been translated from the Greek? So one can never go back to the original Aramaic since the oldest Gospels are in Greek?

The oldest known intact gospels are in Greek. But, that was not the original language.

Nope the original Gospels were in Aramaic. It was Paul who brought them to Greece and they were translated into Greek from the Aramaic. Very few remnants of the original Aramaic exist. What is interesting is one Gospel that was not translated into Greek at that time "The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

Woodrow do u know exactly when this gospel was written? i dont know my slef? but when i went to find out some1 told me hundreds of years after barnabus died? is there factual on this?

But personally, I believe there isnt concrete evidence in the Bible that states Jesus was the son of God.

Dude didnt u read what i said?

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

I dont know what you guys think if this, it basically tell when the gospel was written, and that most academics believe it to be fraud, and some believe it to be early biblical but edtied to suit muslims. here is the adress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

God bless

 

[Paul Williams]

I believe he is so righteous he cant be in the presence of sin, and the blood of Jesus washes that sin away.

Salam to you.

Where is God? He is everywhere, so he must be in the presence of sin!

Also, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth (who according to Marks gospel said to the rich young man who called him 'good teacher' - "why do you call me good, there is only One who is good"), this same Jesus you claim to be God Almighty and thus cannot be in the presence of sin - he is clearly portrayed as mixing with 'sinners' and prostitutes and tax collectors!

Bilal

 

[iLL_LeaT]

Sorry what i mean is, i think God HAS to punish evil, and he loves us to much to punish us, so he sent Jesus to take it. And yes i believe God forgives any sin throught Jesus. Exept speaking against the holy spirit of course as that says thats the only unforgivable sin.

I have a question, who is the creator of evil?

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a chose to pick between right and wrong. And God himself created that chose. So did God create evil?

Please don’t say Lucifer created evil, it’s very cliché. And the story says God crated Lucifer even though he is all knowing. Moreover, Lucifer is known as being created in the middle ages by the Catholic Church.

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Where is God? He is everywhere, so he must be in the presence of sin!

Also, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth (who according to Marks gospel said to the rich young man who called him 'good teacher' - "why do you call me good, there is only One who is good"), this same Jesus you claim to be God Almighty and thus cannot be in the presence of sin - he is clearly portrayed as mixing with 'sinners' and prostitutes and tax collectors!

Yes mate i meant to correct that 2day, forgive me for being ignorant to this subject, i was quoting what i had been told b4 without checking but heres what i found out about it.

I have a question, who is the creator of evil?

The Bible nowhere says that God cannot be in the presence of sin. God is omnipresent - present everywhere at all times. God is always therefore in the presence of sin.

At first it might seem that if God created all things then evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.



Perhaps a further illustration will help. If I were to ask the average person "does cold exist?" - his/her answer would likely be yes. However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

Look at the example of Job in Job chapters 1-2. Satan wanted to destroy Job, and God allowed Satan to do everything but kill Job. God allowed this to happen to prove to Satan that Job was righteous because he loved God, not because God had blessed him so richly. God is sovereign and ultimately in control of everything that happens. Satan cannot do anything unless he has God's "permission." God did not create evil, but He allows evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their "programming." God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether we wanted to serve Him or not.

 

[Woodrow]

I dont know what you guys think if this, it basically tell when the gospel was written, and that most academics believe it to be fraud, and some believe it to be early biblical but edtied to suit muslims. here is the adress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

God bless

What is interesting is I've had Christian Ministers tell me that Mohammad copied the Qur'an from the Barnabas Gospel. I believe that was a common refutation of Mohammad at one time. I first heard of it in comparative religion classes a long time ago.

I think the best source we may be able to find will be in looking into the History of the Coptic Christians as I am certain that they have retained the Coptic Gospel although they may consider it to be uninspired. I will look further and see what else I can find.

 

[Paul Williams]

Yes mate i meant to correct that 2day, forgive me for being ignorant to this subject, i was quoting what i had been told b4 without checking but heres what i found out about it.

No problems, brother. I quoted some verses from Mark's gospel in my last post: 'a young ruler comes up to Jesus and says "good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers him by saying, "why do you call me good? No-one is good except God alone. You know the commandments..." Jesus then proceeds to quote the commandments God gave to Moses.

Two questions for you:

1) You believe Jesus is God Almighty, but in this passage Jesus clearly distinguishes between himself and God.

2) The way to salvation according to Jesus in this passage lies with obeying the 10 commandments.

I would guess that your theology sits very uncomfortably with Jesus' teaching at this point. Could it be that Islam is right?

Bilal