So the Khan family. We're all good, right?

[jabeady]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I disagree with the use of drones. And I do think we as a country are many times irresponsible in the way we use them.

The aforesaid does not excuse Daesh, however, in the slightest.

However, as to why some irrational Muslims would support Daesh, it is because they are too angry and yes even hypocritical to care about the irrationality of such a support position. For example, the emotional appeal Daesh makes to some susceptible Muslims is the death toll on account of drones as such. So, on one hand, Daesh foments anger against deaths of innocent Muslims elsewhere in the globe. And on the other hand, Daesh themselves go out of their way and kill and have successfully killed uncountable Muslims. For example, 6 Muslims died in Paris Attacks, 1/3 of the victims in the Nice Attack were Muslims, only Muslims died in the Turkish airport attack, and so on and so forth this does not include the Muslims in Syria who opposed Daesh and are dead for their show of opposition.

However, my disgust and opposition to Daesh doesn't hinge on Muslim death tolls, rather their deliberate plans that include non-Muslim deaths. Daesh are absolutely gung-ho about killing non-Muslim civilians in other countries and even in Syria, which from my worldview is disgusting and the most heinous un-Islamic position to take. Daesh's publications are psychopathic and celebratory about such deaths. In Islam, if you even kill one innocent life, it is as if you have killed all of humanity as the Quran says, yet these extremists do not care about that.

On another site, I had the misfortune of speaking with some idiotic Daesh supporters and received death threats for trying to show them the irrationality of their position from Quran and Sunnah and fatwas (legal rulings). However, one good thing is that I have seen on that site that even the few who used to support Daesh do not any longer, and yet Abz2000 here is an exception to that rule on IB. Abz2000, however, is perhaps even more deranged than I had initially thought when I came onto IB as others like him have reformed their views due to the fact that Daesh got too extreme for even them.

The rationale behind the drones is that it's the only practical way to go after Daesh's leaders. The saying is that they're trying to cut the head off the snake. They could have sent a drone after Bin Laden but they wanted to bring back proof, his body, that he was dead.

That said, I'm conflicted about drones. They do the job, but they do seem unnecessarily lethal and indiscriminate. It's pretty much the same, but not as bad, as the bombing campaigns of WW2. Think Hamburg or Dresden or London or Tokyo. Modern historians now think the bombing campaigns didn't really accomplish very much. In fact, indiscriminately bombing civilian populations has been shown to increase their will to resist.

Here in the US, many/most people own guns and either hunt or target shoot (I own several older - style guns and I target shoot). Gun safety is a major topic, and one of the primary safety rules is to hold your fire until you have positively identified your target. I can only hope that drone pilots and their commanders follow the same rules.

 

[Serinity]

Your way of thinking and mine seem to be fairly close. I have always felt that the only way to win a war is to go after them with irresistible force and absolutely crush them. Unfortunately, I'm not the President.

The problem nowadays is that the US is tired, after 15 years of war. I know, the Middle East is just as tired, but it doesn't have the options of either just quitting or fighting at a distance. The US has those options, and a lot of people see no reason for a ground war. It really gets complicated when you realize that Donald Trump would be the President most likely to send in troops, but God only knows what else he'd do; I read a news story the other day, wondering how long it would take Trump to launch a nuclear weapon.

Regarding Shariah v Democracy, the only thing that matters to me is that the citizens can at least tolerate it. When the Soviet Union broke up, Russia initially tried to institute American style democracy; it didn't take long, though, for the present system to take hold, resembling a marriage of Czarist Russia and the Supreme Soviet. The saying that Russia needs a czar seems to be true.

We also seem to forget that American democracy didn't just appear one day, it was the result of at least 200 years of philosophical thought and British neglect. What we see in America today is the result of another two centuries of growth.

My point is, political and legal systems are like plants. They grow naturally over time, and only in certain settings. You could transplant a Scotch Pine tree to Tunisia just as "easily" as you could impose American democracy on Iran, or Shariah on China.

BTW, you might be interested in this story. Or, just Google Dearborn Muslims for other articles: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/02/dearborn-mi-where-muslims-are-americans.html

Idk why, but I like your aura for some reason! :/ LOL. may Allah :swt: guide you. Ameen.

Tbh, I do not know much about Shariah, So I can not talk about its legal rulings.

But I honestly just want the best for mankind. I am no near a good person. But I like like-minded people. As for war. None truly wants war.

But what I do know is that Shariah strives to uphold Law, Order, and security.

I hate murderers, and people who instigate disorder and insecurity. Regardless of religion.

Aside from the fact that I haven't read that link yet. I, after ironically watching horror stories on Youtube, want a society with TOP notch security. I, as a Muslim, want Shariah, which means justice for all.

My ignorance when it comes to Shariah Laws, is such, I can not make any comments, except that I know to be Just and fair, to all.

War is something I don't like. The only time War can be justified is to rid off people who impede the spread of Islam - dawah from entering. I.e. when someone is like "I won't let you guys have this community hear about Islam ever" or something .

Or when injustices or oppression is happening.

may Allah :swt: forgive me if I said anything wrong. Ameen.

 

[jabeady]

Idk why, but I like your aura for some reason! :/ LOL. may Allah :swt: guide you. Ameen.

Tbh, I do not know much about Shariah, So I can not talk about its legal rulings.

But I honestly just want the best for mankind. I am no near a good person. But I like like-minded people. As for war. None truly wants war.

But what I do know is that Shariah strives to uphold Law, Order, and security.

I hate murderers, and people who instigate disorder and insecurity. Regardless of religion.

Aside from the fact that I haven't read that link yet. I, after ironically watching horror stories on Youtube, want a society with TOP notch security. I, as a Muslim, want Shariah, which means justice for all.

My ignorance when it comes to Shariah Laws, is such, I can not make any comments, except that I know to be Just and fair, to all.

War is something I don't like. The only time War can be justified is to rid off people who impede the spread of Islam - dawah from entering. I.e. when someone is like "I won't let you guys have this community hear about Islam ever" or something .

Or when injustices or oppression is happening.

may Allah :swt: forgive me if I said anything wrong. Ameen.

You like my aura? Thank you.

I don't know much about Shariah, either. It does have the reputation of being unusually oppressive, harsh and strict. Even so, like I said earlier, I can well imagine there are places and people where it would be the only "natural" form of government.

OTOH, as an atheist, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a place ruled by Shariah: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

 

[Aaqib]

.........

 

[Aaqib]

You like my aura? Thank you.

I don't know much about Shariah, either. It does have the reputation of being unusually oppressive, harsh and strict. Even so, like I said earlier, I can well imagine there are places and people where it would be the only "natural" form of government.

OTOH, as an atheist, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a place ruled by Shariah: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

Please jabeady, you don't actually think those places which hold athiesm to death is real sharia, do you?

 

[jabeady]

Please jabeady, you don't actually think those places which hold athiesm to death is real sharia, do you?

I don't know. Google Shariah Atheist and a lot of articles appear. OTOH, I am quite ready to believe that Shariah in one place is not the same as Shariah in another.

From the cited article:

The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

 

[Abz2000]

You like my aura? Thank you.

I don't know much about Shariah, either. It does have the reputation of being unusually oppressive, harsh and strict. Even so, like I said earlier, I can well imagine there are places and people where it would be the only "natural" form of government.

OTOH, as an atheist, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a place ruled by Shariah: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

Salams oh Muslims, and may Allah guide those whom he wills to guide, just got back from watching some recent zakir naik shows and found a whole load of comments thrown apparently at a void so i'll comment on the last one.
Lol dude God knows where you'd go then coz out of all things that are possible for God, you somehow chose one of the very few He's incapable of granting, i don't think He's capable of throwing you out of His dominion since everything is His dominion, the sun, the moon, the stars, mars, mercury to pluto, the trees, the law of gravity and aging, are all governed by the shariah of Allah, pitiful position since even commiting suicide won't help, poor bugger.

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنَ النَّاسِ وَكَثِيرٌ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِ الْعَذَابُ وَمَن يُهِنِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّكْرِمٍ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء {18*022:018*Khan: See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can honour him. Verily! Allah does what He wills.
Quran 22:18

It's better that we aim to be servants of God than unwilling slaves since servants get a decent payoff at the end of the day, and the way He's shown is the best way when you make a comparitive unbiased study.

Some people are amazing, first they tell me to go back to my own country despite having only a british passport, i leave and find a country whose people at least accept me as their own (despite the government being a puppet) then they want to leave God's dominion and put the sun and moon on standby or even switch them off! Hell knows what they'll demand next......


.... 11In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,*
12And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Deuteronomy 34

 

[Aaqib]

I don't know. Google Shariah Atheist and a lot of articles appear. OTOH, I am quite ready to believe that Shariah in one place is not the same as Shariah in another.

From the cited article:

The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

I read that non muslims can live in a muslim ruled country peacefully, those countries might just simply have there own version of Sharia.

 

[Aaqib]

Well idk about athiests cuz no one in the prophet :saw: days were athiests, i think.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I do not agree with the use of drones primarily because of the reasons on which you have touched. While it is a convenient and expedient way, it is also indiscriminate and we end up taking civilian lives alongside. I do not believe we can ethically afford to follow the Machiavellian formula of the end justifying the means as it dishonors us as human beings.

Not only does drones in this case increases the will to resist but it leaves a vacuum for the next type of Daesh-type organization to rise. Eric H, one of our nicest Christian members, once said that hatred begets hatred and we need to instead expend our energies on constructive solutions. I agree with him.

It is not that I think our drone commanders and pilots are not careful but that I think militarily they are told they cannot afford the luxury of second-guessing in attacking the target and that target often does comprise of civilian deaths because that's largely unavoidable. Read Nearly 90 Percent Of People Killed In Recent Drone Strikes Were Not The Target. And also read U.S. Dropped 23,144 Bombs on Muslim-Majority Countries in 2015.

The rationale behind the drones is that it's the only practical way to go after Daesh's leaders. The saying is that they're trying to cut the head off the snake. They could have sent a drone after Bin Laden but they wanted to bring back proof, his body, that he was dead.

That said, I'm conflicted about drones. They do the job, but they do seem unnecessarily lethal and indiscriminate. It's pretty much the same, but not as bad, as the bombing campaigns of WW2. Think Hamburg or Dresden or London or Tokyo. Modern historians now think the bombing campaigns didn't really accomplish very much. In fact, indiscriminately bombing civilian populations has been shown to increase their will to resist.

Here in the US, many/most people own guns and either hunt or target shoot (I own several older - style guns and I target shoot). Gun safety is a major topic, and one of the primary safety rules is to hold your fire until you have positively identified your target. I can only hope that drone pilots and their commanders follow the same rules.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I used to be an atheist and I can tell you that a lot of the propositions spouted about shariah (Islamic Law) are based in ignorance, half-truths, or distortions. I did discuss shariah in a post tangentially called "What Makes A Person a Muslim?" but for a wider understanding about shariah, I'd refer you to the treatise written by an Islamic scholar called Understanding Islamic Law.

Secondly, no, you won't die if you go to Saudi Arabia as an atheist; I'm sure when they speak of atheism in this context, they're referring to Muslim citizens apostatizing in those countries and adopting atheism. While these specific nation-states enumerated in the article are not a theocratic state (except for Saudi Arabia), they're not secular nation-states either; they're in-between types and therefore they conflate apostatizing with becoming traitors to the nation-states.

You like my aura? Thank you.

I don't know much about Shariah, either. It does have the reputation of being unusually oppressive, harsh and strict. Even so, like I said earlier, I can well imagine there are places and people where it would be the only "natural" form of government.

OTOH, as an atheist, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a place ruled by Shariah: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

 

[Serinity]

Apostasy Law applies on muslims who apostasise from Islam. There is a process to that. It is either a 3-day or a 30-day, Idk which. After which one is executed, if one doesn't return.

Allah :swt: forbade oppression for Himself, so how can His Law be oppressive? It isn't.

Apostasy Law doesn't apply on non muslims, to my knowledge.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@jabeady

I'm sorry for Abz2000 being obnoxious with you. Feel free to ignore him; I do...well, mostly anyway.​

 

[islamirama]

I don't understand.. how is it kufr?

how is it not? you are joining the enemies of Islam to Kill Muslims. These enemies of Islam have killed 20 million Muslim, 12 million with their illegal wars and occupations and 4 million with their drone attacks and how knows how many with their sanctions and how many under reported or unaccounted for.


If you still don't understand and can't comprehend it then visit the link below to read the answer .

The scholars of Islam have stated that it is not permitted to support the kaafirs against the Muslims, and that that is kufr (disbelief) and riddah (apostasy), because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

https://islamqa.info/en/33691

It's protecting your country, ISIS are muslims who are extreme/promote violence... C'mon, just because they're muslim, we can't attack them?! That's ludicrous. The USA isn't an enemy of Islam, how? What do you mean by "enemy of Islam"?

Assuming you mean the western nation you call "your" country, which is why think its ok to join them. First of all, ISIS is not attacking your country, nor is it invading it so stop crying wolf.

Secondly, ISIS are not Muslims, not even extremist Muslims. They are a western intelligence created terror group to kill Muslims and clear out the sham area, especially the Euphrates river. I know this is over your head, sigh if only the older timers were around.

Thirdly, US is the enemy of Islam. What other nation has killed more Muslims in recent times? the previous president killed 12 million and the current president killed 4 million, what more do you want them to say they are not the enemies of Islam? how ignorantly blind can you be? or are you just trying to justify your daddy being a kuffar army boy?

Seriously, I don't understand this at all.

No, you don't. Just stop trying to defend your daddy and his kuffar army for the holocaust of Muslims.

 

[jabeady]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@jabeady

I'm sorry for Abz2000 being obnoxious with you. Feel free to ignore him; I do...well, mostly anyway.​

[emoji28] [emoji28] [emoji28]

 

[jabeady]

Thirdly, US is the enemy of Islam. What other nation has killed more Muslims in recent times?

Umm... Syria? Russia?

previous president killed 12 million and the current president killed 4 million

Is there a reason we should believe these numbers?

 

[jabeady]

Apostasy Law doesn't apply on non muslims, to my knowledge.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

Well, someone in the Muslim world might want to clear up that little misunderstanding.

Just a thought.

 

[Serinity]

Well, someone in the Muslim world might want to clear up that little misunderstanding.

Just a thought.

How?

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

how is it not? you are joining the enemies of Islam to Kill Muslims. These enemies of Islam have killed 20 million Muslim, 12 million with their illegal wars and occupations and 4 million with their drone attacks and how knows how many with their sanctions and how many under reported or unaccounted for.

Again, you keep assuming that United States is an enemy of Islam as they have killed Muslims. The two are separate things and not the same. AT ALL. During the time of Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), Muslims were killed simply for following Islam. However, United States is not killing Muslims today because they are following Islam, rather because 9/11 instigated the entire fiasco. You may believe in some conspiracy theory of 9/11 being an inside job, but recent documents from the 9/11 investigation show clearly that the hijackers were Muslim and wanted to end the support for Israel. You do realize that as many as 60 American Muslims died in 9/11 Attack on U.S. soil?

If you still don't understand and can't comprehend it then visit the link below to read the answer.

Again, the premise is hinged on the assumption that United States is directly at war with Islam.

Assuming you mean the western nation you call "your" country, which is why think its ok to join them. First of all, ISIS is not attacking your country, nor is it invading it so stop crying wolf.

What Kool-aid have you been drinking? You do realize that Daesh has deliberately in their publications and via the Internet asked deranged Muslims to answer their call to attack the West. While Daesh did not itself commit any attacks on U.S. soil, indirectly Daesh-inspired attacks did occur with San Bernarndino Attack and Orlando shooting.

Secondly, ISIS are not Muslims, not even extremist Muslims. They are a western intelligence created terror group to kill Muslims and clear out the sham area, especially the Euphrates river. I know this is over your head, sigh if only the older timers were around.

Again, you tout a conspiracy theory and accept that conspiracy theory to be true when it hasn't been established at all.

Thirdly, US is the enemy of Islam. What other nation has killed more Muslims in recent times? the previous president killed 12 million and the current president killed 4 million, what more do you want them to say they are not the enemies of Islam? how ignorantly blind can you be? or are you just trying to justify your daddy being a kuffar army boy?

Again, you keep harping on the premise that U.S. is the enemy of Islam. Stop bullying him with phrases like "daddy being a kuffar army boy."

No, you don't. Just stop trying to defend your daddy and his kuffar army for the holocaust of Muslims.

He has every right to defend his father against your words.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

 

[jabeady]

How?

Dunno. But when atheists are worried about losing their lives if they travel to a Muslim nation, because of a confusion between atheism and apostasy, it doesn't help Islam's image.