So the Khan family. We're all good, right?

[cooterhein]

Khizr and Ghazala Khan, their late son Humayan Khan. Everyone knows the situation. Go after Trump, he reacts how everyone kind of knew he would, the US finally reacts to Trump (mostly anyway) as they should. To me at least, it seems like the start of a healthy conversation. First, because sales of pocket Constitutions have gone through the roof, and second because it starts a conversation about people who are thoroughly Muslim and thoroughly American, it's not binary and these aren't things that are naturally in conflict with one another.

Now, just as far as Humayan Khan being a member of the US military. And fighting for the US in the Middle East. We're all good, right? It was brought to my attention, a few weeks ago, that there's a list of different things that disqualify someone from properly being a Muslim. One of those things involves fighting alongside infidels, especially if you're fighting with then against Muslims.

I also realize this is, perhaps, an issue that's better left for a true scholar, a true expert, if I were to look for something comprehensive and truly official. And that's okay, I don't necessarily need all of that. Maybe there's a later step where I find out about that, but right now let's just do what we can.

As a regular Muslim who may be interacting with this as it's currently in the public eye, and perhaps as it leads to further conversations about Islamic and American identities and about military service in general, what does the thought process look like or you and where do you take this sort of conversation?

The whole thing with the prohibition against fighting alongside infidels- is this a thing, at all, that gets considered? Is it even on the radar? Is there much of anything that needs to be said about it? If this is a thing, please walk me through it a little bit, if not then I'm really fine if this thread winds up not being very much about that.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hope you're doing well.

While I did miss the DNC convention speech of Khizr Khan, I caught it the next day on Yahoo! News. And I was like, "Yahoo!" (pun intended). Yet in all seriousness, I was really excited and elated at having a person speaking for us Muslims, that is, people who are both Muslim and American. To be honest, it's about Time that many get to see that Muslims are not some alien persons and share an American identity with them (whether they desire that or not, and no one has a right to judge or ostracize Muslim Americans from the conversation in regards to the direction or future of America); being "different" in terms of either religion or ethnicity doesn't disqualify a person from being an American, after all.

I can't give you an answer about fighting alongside non-Muslims in the army as that is a question for scholars. However, this fatwa (legal ruling) might provide some insight on this matter: Can a Muslim be an American Soldier.

I personally believe that Humayun Khan was a matyr Islamically as he died saving the lives of other persons under his care/supervision/command, and in the Quran, Allah compares saving the life of one person as saving all of humanity, and so he is a true hero. I recently found out that Daesh consider Humayun Khan an apostate, which further strengthens my belief that Humayun Khan was a martyr. There is no way to 100% know of course that he died a martyr, but in Islam, intentions matter and are accounted to deeds. If Humayun Khan died saving the lives of other human beings, he's a martyr. Period.

There are only a few Americans on IB as I think most members here are from U.K.; so, this thread might receive very limited responses. I'm not sure if what I've said helps you develop an insight into this matter, but if it does, I'm glad to have been of service.

 

[Abz2000]

Peace be to those who follow the true guidance and accept Muhammad as the messenger of God,

It has been enjoined upon mankind by the Creator and Master of the heavens and the earth to submit to His laws and work together in harmony towards lawful positive progress, the land in which a person is born or chooses as his or her place of domicile does not have and cannot develop arms, legs, eyes, mind, tongue etc and begin dictating to him or her what is right or wrong, nor can a huge concrete statue which sits upon many waters dictate right and wrong, idolatry is forbidden whereas submission to God is enjoined.

If after that, the people who enjoy power and authority in the land make corruption and promote infidelity therein, a person's duty is to distance themselves from participation in corruption and injustice to the best of their reasonable ability and to try to walk in the path of God as much as they can and guide their people to the truth as much as they can.

Claiming that one is from America and chooses Islam as their way of life does not necessarily make them irrational as long as they continue to work to make the Word of Allah the highest and thereby save themselves and their people from ignominy in this life and hell in eternity - and nor does it put America on an equal footing with God.

Valid examples of this situation have been shown to us in the past and a useful one to note would be the term Quraysh/Makkan.
The Prophet pbuh was born in Makkah within the tribe of Quraysh, he first referred to them as his people, but when it became clear to him that the leadership was being irrational, abusive and criminal in it's assessment of the message with which he had been sent, he took those of the believers who were willing to migrate with him and separated himself from them and worked to establish the laws of God in a land in which people were receptive to his message.
The Quraysh were then at war with God and the terms "Makkan and Quraysh" were used to refer to the main body of kufr (infidelity-rejection of the truth which God has made plain) even though there were many people who professed Islam amongst Quraysh who had not migrated due to social or financial reasons.
Anyone who thereafter came to fight against the Muslims was coming out in transgression and those of the people who claimed to profess Islam and were compelled to come out at the battle of Badr were considered to be of the enemies of God to whose families no blood money was due after their slaughter, it is reported that some came out with the infidel army with the intention of pretending to fight but not shooting at or striking Muslims, some of them were killed by Muslim arrows and their case was for God to judge.

However, there were faithful who had remained in Makkah to whom God referred in chapter 48 al Fath (the opening), and God informed the Prophet of the fact that Allah had prevented him from forcing his way immediately out of wisdom and the fact that there were believing men and women whom he (pbuh) did not know whom he would have trampled and on whose account guilt would have accrued to the Prophet pbuh. God also gave them time to consider the signs and truthfulness and justice of the message and saved them from the destruction they deserved on account of their horrible injustice and criminality, the whole peninsula also repented and submitted to God, therefore the delay proved Allah's wisdom. If a lawful justifiable strike is made against an infidel land in service of God and seeking to please Him, and people who claim to be Muslims lose their lives in the midst of such an action, their case is for God to judge, and the Prophet pbuh is reported to have denied legal responsibility for so-called Muslims who are partakers in a corrupt society which is in opposition to God, he is reported on one occasion to have paid half the blood money seemingly more out of pity than a sense of duty.

Anyway, the trump, hillary and khan theatre facade is obvious to any clear and rationally thinking mind the ploy of propping up a semblance of support or acceptance of the discredited military industrial complex in America, the projected psychology is blatantly transparent, regardless of party and ideological lines, sort of a stupid subconscious unspoken statement like: "you can be republican, democrat, Muslim, christian, jew, atheist, satanist, gay or pervert, our aunt, our uncle, our grandma, our grandpa, or all of them at the same time for that matter, regardless of whether you're male or female, but you can only be a patriotic American if you support a military buildup and war on Islam, then you'll be acceptable to society".

Ultimately wisdom is required along with a keen, truthful and sincere will to obey Allah and His Messenger and to please Allah.
playing semantics with words and trying to absolve oneself from blame by falsely manipulating the interpretations of what one finds in the Book of God or any other book will not work with God who knows the depth and culmination of our intentions better than ourselves.

The jewish leadership (which had become a puppet leadership of rome) had tried manipulating interpretations of the Word in defiance of Spirit before so God sent them a trial via a woman and her son who He made the Word, despite the letter of the text prescribing punishment, they were forced to dizzily sit down.
then a generation followed which totally neglected the letter and went with spirit, it worked upto a certain extent for a while until they too went astray by making anything they liked lawful and unlawful regardless of the letter and spirit and the law.

Now you have the letter and spirit harmonized in the guidance of God which is Islam guiding you unto all truth, follow it and you'll be successful.

 

[sister herb]

Anyways, at the least this brother was more martyr than those whose attack against civilians and claim they take part to jihad. This I mean those daesh guys.

 

[Abz2000]

The people of 'ad and thamud, the people of lut, the people of al aika, and the people of Nuh must've been criminals without doubt, and if anyone accuses God of injustice, they should look to themselves for a statement of kufr, riddah and hypocrisy.

http://www.asia-pacificresearch.com...lear-attack-on-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/5539926

The people of hiroshima and nagasaki however were wronged by unjust oppressors who and who's allies deserve the wrath of God which is approaching them.
only repentance to God and it's acceptance will justify their forgiveness.

There is however some confusion in the media reports as to the nature of the nuclear bombs stored and deployed at Incirlik. They are B61 gravity bombs [of the bunker buster type] with nuclear warheads, *with an explosive capacity of up to 170 kilotons (up to 12 times a Hiroshima bomb).The accuracy of the numbers of bombs quoted in the media reports remains to be acertained. Some of the bombs were decommissioned. Some of them may have been*replaced*with a more recent version *including the B61-11.*It should be*emphasized*that in the last few years, the Pentagon has developed a more advanced version of the B61, namely the B61-12, which is slated to replace the older versions currently stored and deployed in Western Europe including Turkey.
Nuclear weapons are on the table: A trillion dollar nuclear weapons is now being contemplated by the Pentagon.*

http://www.globalresearch.ca/europe-s-five-undeclared-nuclear-weapons-states/17550


They've already shown God through the bombing of Baghdad how they believe those people who hold and use weapons of mass destruction guaranteed to target and kill civilians should be handled:

And the fact that they continue to hold such monstrous weapons shows that they haven't learned anything and are awaiting a verdict from God.

 

[MisterK]

Sadly, I live in a state that will almost certainly go to Trump no matter what. That said, if this speech, and the resulting aftermath, brought about even one person changing their views on Islam, or Muslims in general (in the US or otherwise), then I would think it was a success in PR. And since it seems it has done just that in some regard, the whole thing was well played.

 

[keiv]

I don't agree with Muslims joining the US military. I can't see why a Muslim would want to do that. If you want to help / protect people, join law enforcement, go into the medical field, become a firefighter, do volunteer work, etc... You don't need to strap a rifle around your neck and stand alongside kafirs to fight against other Muslims.

 

[Aaqib]

I don't agree with Muslims joining the US military. I can't see why a Muslim would want to do that. If you want to help / protect people, join law enforcement, go into the medical field, become a firefighter, do volunteer work, etc... You don't need to strap a rifle around your neck and stand alongside kafirs to fight against other Muslims.

By other muslims do you mean ISIS? When is a situation that a soldier will be commanded to fight innocent Muslims? My dad is in the military, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Abz2000]

By other muslims do you mean ISIS? When is a situation that a soldier will be commanded to fight innocent Muslims? My dad is in the military, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Like in fallujah, abu ghraib and guantanamo, 90% released without charge so far and others yet held with no charges brought against them.

 

[jabeady]

I don't agree with Muslims joining the US military. I can't see why a Muslim would want to do that. If you want to help / protect people, join law enforcement, go into the medical field, become a firefighter, do volunteer work, etc... You don't need to strap a rifle around your neck and stand alongside kafirs to fight against other Muslims.

Which begs the question: Is Isis/Daesh a Muslim organization? It's been my impression that most Muslims consider them to practice, at best, a perverted form of Islam. For that matter, Isis/Daesh makes war on other Muslims; why would it be wrong to ally yourself with us pagans to fight against them? Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend?

 

[Abz2000]

And here:




http://s248.photobucket.com/user/abz2000123/media/fallujah.jpg.html?sort=3&o=70

 

[Abz2000]

Which begs the question: Is Isis/Daesh a Muslim organization? It's been my impression that most Muslims consider them to practice, at best, a perverted form of Islam. For that matter, Isis/Daesh makes war on other Muslims; why would it be wrong to ally yourself with us pagans to fight against them? Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend?

Apparently "isis" did not exist until the kuffar began a long drawn out campaign of bloodshed around the planet over which God gave them temporary authority as a test for mankind so that they will have a chance to consider where we were all going wrong and return to the Law of Allah in humility, do not be arrogant against God, your arrogance will breed evil consequences for those who are arrogant towards God, you have been shown grace on multiple occasions and are constantly returning to oppression of Muslims and bloodshed around the planet, it is better that we all repent to God and beseech Him in humility rather than continue to go bankrupt whilst acting as mouthpieces for the kafir military industrial complex and blowing all our money on destructive weapons whilst the rothschilds prepare themselves for the kingdom of satan with the world's people on it's knees.
If indeed "isis" is fake and you are heartbroken and eager to go around the planet to fight, accept that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, establish Islam according to the best of your ability in your own families, then we can look further. You have proved to have a penchance for lying and creating false international sensations about any Muslim who picks up a weapon in order to defend themself, and you have also been caught lying on numerous occasions about the groups you call ""isis" and "alqaeda" and have helped to confuse the situation even more by arming them and bombing them simultaneously.

Be very careful as patience and friendliness is running short, you haven't a clue what someone is capable of even incarcerated or killed.
I seek to serve Him who created me and bestowed whatever He saw just to bestow.
Let us stop seeking to create more trouble and filthiness and humble ourselves before it's too late, we are under careful scrutiny........
and have been for a long time:

 

[jabeady]

...your arrogance will breed evil consequences for those who are arrogant towards God, you have been shown grace on multiple occasions and are constantly returning to oppression of Muslims and bloodshed around the planet, it is better that we all repent to God and beseech Him in humility rather than continue to go bankrupt whilst acting as mouthpieces for the kafir military industrial complex and blowing all our money on destructive weapons whilst the rothschilds prepare themselves for the kingdom of satan with the world's people on it's knees.
If indeed "isis" is fake and you are heartbroken and eager to go around the planet to fight, accept that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, establish Islam according to the best of your ability in your own families, then we can look further. You have proved to have a penchance for lying and creating false international sensations about any Muslim who picks up a weapon in order to defend themself, and you have also been caught lying on numerous occasions about the groups you call ""isis" and "alqaeda" and have helped to confuse the situation even more by arming them and bombing them simultaneously.

Be very careful as patience and friendliness is running short, you haven't a clue what someone is capable of even incarcerated or killed.
I seek to serve Him who created me and bestowed whatever He saw just to bestow.
Let us stop seeking to create more trouble and filthiness and humble ourselves before it's too late, we are under careful scrutiny........
and have been for a long time:

I don't have any hard numbers, but it's my impression that Daesh has killed thousands more Muslims than they have any other group. Quite nastily, too, beheading, burning alive and such. Yet, if I understand you correctly, you consider Daesh to be the good guys. Do you really sympathize with Daesh? Please tell me if you do, so I can leave this conversation immediately.

 

[islamirama]

The khan family's message and appearance was good PR for the Democrats and for American Muslims. Their "sacrifice" however wasn't all that "islamically" worthy. It's not that Muslims are not allowed to fight along side non-Muslims but rather they are not allowed to join the enemies of Islam. America is a clearly an open enemy of Islam. I could go back to 1924 but I'll just go back to Bush Sr. administration and start from there.

America put sanctions on Iraq for allegedly making "chemical weapons" or whatever excuse they came up with at that time, when in fact the whole purpose was to weaken Iraq since it had one of the largest armies in the world and a Muslim army at that. Those sanctions were for 10 years. In that time frame, no food, medicine or anything was allowed in. Their so called food for oil program was a sham as well. Because of lack of water, hospitals were being clean with petroleum. In that time, about 500,000 children under the age of 5 starved to death and the US Secretary of State, war criminal Albright, said on national TV that it was "worth" it to keep America "safe" from big bad Saddam. The 500k children under 5 is a UN estimate, the numbers may have been much higher, and that is not including the children above the age of 5 or the poor, the elderly, and the sick. In Addition to the sanctions and no fly zones, US continued to fly over and drop bombs over there.

Next up is Bush Jr. who waged an illegal war and occupation of Iraq based on Weapons of Mass Deception. In that 10 year occupation, the Americans and their allies committed a holocaust of 12 million Muslims. That's not including the thousands mass murdered in Afghanistan. In addition, they committed numerous war crimes, such as killing civilians for support, torture, rape, and burning of bodies.

Next up is Obama, who waged his drone war on Pakistan, yemen and other Muslim nations. His drone war killed over 4 million Muslims in the Muslim world, another holocaust. This is not including the toppling of Gaddafi and the mayhem done to his country and people.

All in all, the so called war on terror was a war of terror and a war on Islam. And this western war of America and it's allies resulted in a modern day holocaust of 20 Million Muslims. (I'm rounding up from 12+4 to all the unaccounted or under reported ones).

Do you think any other group would tolerate a holocaust of their people to that magnitude? And we are the "terrorists", who is the biggest terrorist in the world? who kills by the millions?

So his "sacrifice" was just another life wasted in the war mongering nation, given up for the greed of the corporations. His life and the rest of the troops that were sent there to die was all for nothing, they were the victims of illegal wars and greed and nothing else. And many among them enjoyed the killing, torture and rape of innocents. Ask Obama why he won't release the photos of thousands of Muslim women in being raped by US soldiers.

As for the "infidel" world. Historically that very word was used by European Christians to mean anyone not Christian, especially Muslims. Slowly the west started using that word as something the Muslims use against Non-Muslims. It was not our word to start with and has nothing to do with us. We don't say 'infidels', say kuffar (non-believer).

I personally believe that Humayun Khan was a matyr Islamically as he died saving the lives of other persons under his care/supervision/command, and in the Quran, Allah compares saving the life of one person as saving all of humanity, and so he is a true hero. I recently found out that Daesh consider Humayun Khan an apostate, which further strengthens my belief that Humayun Khan was a martyr. There is no way to 100% know of course that he died a martyr, but in Islam, intentions matter and are accounted to deeds. If Humayun Khan died saving the lives of other human beings, he's a martyr. Period.

What you personally believe and what Islam says are two different things. What the Daesh thinks or not is not the criteria either to decide what he was.He was not a matyr. He was in the camp of the enemy, he went to occupy a Muslim land. He engaged in killing Muslims alongside his kuffar comrades. And he saved lives of his kuffar comrades so they can go killing more Muslims.

Abu Hurairah reported that Allah's Messenger (saws) said:"He who is killed fighting for Allah's Cause is a martyr, he who dies in the Cause of Allah is a martyr, he who dies in an epidemic is a martyr, he who dies from a stomach disease is a martyr, and the one who dies of drowning is (also) a martyr."
Narrated by Muslim.

Al-Muwatta Hadith 16.36
Yahya related from Malik from Abdullah ibn Abdullah ibn Jabir ibn Atik that Atik ibn al-Harith told him that the Messenger of Allah (saws) said: What do you consider dying a martyr to be?" They said, "Death in the way of Allah." The Messenger of Allah (saws) said, "There are seven kinds of martyrs other than those killed in the Way of Allah. Someone who is killed by the plague is a martyr, someone who drowns is a martyr, someone who dies of pleurisy is a martyr, someone who dies of a disease of the belly is a martyr, someone who dies by fire is a martyr, someone who dies under a falling building is a martyr, and a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr."

Sa'id ibn Zaid reported that the Prophet (saws) said: "He who is killed while guarding his property is a martyr, he who is killed while defending himself is a martyr, he who is killed defending his religion is a martyr, and he who dies protecting his family is (also) a martyr."
Related by Ahmad and Tirmidhi.

Do you see any mention of saving lives of the killers of Muslims in there?

Rather then going by what you "personally" believe, it's best to go by what Islam says.

The scholars of Islam are unanimously agreed that whoever supports the kaafirs against the Muslims and helps them in any way is a kaafir like them as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51].

https://islamqa.info/en/33691

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I don't know about currently. However, when I first came onto IB, he did support Daesh. I had many debates with him, and from what he's said, he's put me on his ignore list. I don't know if I am still on his ignore list, however. I have had to report his posts on IB because IB has a strict policy against promotion of any type of terrorism - so, feel free to do the same.

I don't have any hard numbers, but it's my impression that Daesh has killed thousands more Muslims than they have any other group. Quite nastily, too, beheading, burning alive and such. Yet, if I understand you correctly, you consider Daesh to be the good guys. Do you really sympathize with Daesh? Please tell me if you do, so I can leave this conversation immediately.

 

[jabeady]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I don't know about currently. However, when I first came onto IB, he did support Daesh. I had many debates with him, and from what he's said, he's put me on his ignore list. I don't know if I am still on his ignore list, however. I have had to report his posts on IB because IB has a strict policy against promotion of any type of terrorism - so, feel free to do the same.

I'm pretty new here, so I don't want to report anyone. OTOH, I don't want to end up on a no-fly list, either. I read IB with the phone app, and I don't think it has access to an Ignore feature, so I guess I'll just have to use some self control.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

@islamirama

Yes, I have read what you've written, but I still disagree with you. Also, I'd like you to read the comprehensive list presented in Classification of Martyrs and see where you cannot see how Humayun Khan would be classified as a martyr. So, yes, he's a martyr even Islamically, even if you do not consider his sacrificing his own life to protect his own comrades' life as an act of "martyrdom" because he'd still fall under the list of other of martyrs from the enumerated list.

I'm also sorry, but I have in the past said I disagree with persons who say that there is a war with Islam. America has interfered in the Middle East too often for what I can only perceive as an aid to Israel. And I have disagreed with this interference alongside non-Muslim Americans many a time. However, that said, equating interference in the Middle East or elsewhere to maintain its hegemony in the world is not the same as "war on Islam." I have refuted this mentality in the past; and I am not going to go into this again as a debate.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

 

[islamirama]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

@islamirama

Yes, I have read what you've written, but I still disagree with you. Also, I'd like you to read the comprehensive list presented in Classification of Martyrs and see where you cannot see how Humayun Khan would be classified as a martyr. So, yes, he's a martyr even Islamically, even if you do not consider his sacrificing his own life to protect his own comrades' life as an act of "martyrdom" because he'd still fall under the list of other of martyrs from the enumerated list.

I'm also sorry, but I have in the past said I disagree with persons who say that there is a war with Islam. America has interfered in the Middle East too often for what I can only perceive as an aid to Israel. And I have disagreed with this interference alongside non-Muslim Americans many a time. However, that said, equating interference in the Middle East or elsewhere to maintain its hegemony in the world is not the same as "war on Islam." I have refuted this mentality in the past; and I am not going to go into this again as a debate.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

wa'alaikum as'salaam

For your matyr statement, I'll repost what I shared before. Doesn't matter what I consider, the scholars are clear on this.


The scholars of Islam are unanimously agreed that whoever supports the kaafirs against the Muslims and helps them in any way is a kaafir like them as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51].


Regarding your not at war with Muslims statement...

with it's media demonizing Islam, it's politicians attacking Islam, its presidential candidate running on campaign of banning and deporting Muslims, it's current and previous war criminal presidents slaughtering Muslims, and it's invasions, destruction and occupation of ONLY Muslim lands in the past 2-3 decades, yea it's all about keeping it's "hegemony" and power in the world....

try telling that to the 20 Million Muslims dead and counting....

 

[Aaqib]

removed

 

[jabeady]

try telling that to the 20 Million Muslims dead and counting....

I'd like to see some documentation for that number.