So was the Torah available to Mohammed?

[Eddy]

Sahih International: All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, [O Muhammad], "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

I'm confused, Muslims in general say the Torah and Injeel is not what Christians call Torah and the gospels. So, what Torah is Allah referring to? If Allah tell Mohammed to recite it then that Torah shouldn't be corrupted, right?

 

[Ümit]

aleykum selam Eddy,

This is a Quraan verse Von surah Al Imran (surah 3, verse 93)

For how I understand this is pretty obvious:
Allah reveals the Thorah through Musa as...lets say Thorah_1.0

The Jews then go ahead and change it to Thorah_2.0
Then they come to Muhammad sas and ask him trick questions about Islam which allegedly contradicts the Thorah_2.0

however, the Thorah_2.0 never had any authority in the court of Allahs law, so if Allah speaks about the Thorah, he speaks about Thorah_1.0
So, this Quraan verse trolls them back by saying, "if you are truthfull, bring the Thorah_1.0 and read from that one"...
which they will never do, because then, it would be obvious that they were not thuthful.

If you want to get more specific:
The Jews accused Mohammad sas for making some kind of food (camel food and camel milk) lawful, which was allegedly unlawful in the Thorah_2.0

The reality however, was different. God didn't forbid the consumption of camel meat or milk. it was always lawful.
Israel (prophet Yaqub as) got sick one day, and as his sickness prolonged, he vowed to God that if he got cured, he would leave certain types of food (camels meat and camels milk)
And as he got cured, he kept his promise and did that. so it was just a prohibation to himself and himself alone.

The children of Israel (the descendants of prophet Yaqub as just copied this as their custom and after generations thought it was forbidden to consume it and therefore made a law out of it. so they wrote it in their Thorah_2.0.

And then this verse comes torefer those Jews back to Thorah_1.0 to read from it if they are truthful.

 

[Eddy]

Thans for your response.
You said "The Jews then go ahead and change it to Torah 2.0"
That is the whole point of my investigation. When was the Torah changed to what you called Torah 2.0?
Where is the evidence that it was actually changed?
You might know that Jews and Christians don't believe the Torah was ever changed at all.
They do admit that the Torah and Gospels have mistakes (human mistakes) but they believe that the Torah and Gospels were written by men with the inspiration of God, therefore it is totally posible that there are some scrible errors there.
Do you know any way that proves the Torah was corrupted or changed? How did you get to that conclusion?
When Allah tells Muhammad to recite the Torah that obviously was during Muhammad's life (between 530 and 632) so it would be safe to say that at that point the Torah was the book the Jews had in their possesion and that book was not corrupted.
So when exactly was the Torah corrupted?
and where is the evidence?
In other words, where in the Islamic scriptures say that the Torah is corrupted?

 

[Ümit]

Thans for your response.
You said "The Jews then go ahead and change it to Torah 2.0"
That is the whole point of my investigation. When was the Torah changed to what you called Torah 2.0?
Where is the evidence that it was actually changed?

I'm not an expert on the Thorah or Gospels, but I do know the very fact that when you say:
"written by men with the inspiration of God"
or
"Possibly some scribal errors in it"
It is enough proof to say that it is not the original word of God.
The word of God is flawless.
Flawless means without scribal errors, in original language, in complete form (without any addition or subtraction from it).

You might know that Jews and Christians don't believe the Torah was ever changed at all.

Yes I do. but believing does not make something actually true. They can believe all they want.

When Allah tells Muhammad to recite the Torah that obviously was during Muhammad's life (between 530 and 632) so it would be safe to say that at that point the Torah was the book the Jews had in their possesion and that book was not corrupted.

???
Where exactly did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah? Was it before Muhammad sas was illiterate or after?
Nowhere in the Quran did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah. Nor is there any narration that he sas ever read the Thorah. That is not possible.
The Quraan of course mentions the Thorah in the very verse we are discussing in this topic and in several other verses I believe, but again, in the original version as it was revealed to Musa as. Not the 2.0 Version.

So when exactly was the Torah corrupted?
and where is the evidence?
In other words, where in the Islamic scriptures say that the Torah is corrupted?

Islamic scriptures?
‘So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)

Ibn Kathir about this verse 2:78-79:

Woe unto Those Criminals among the Jews

Allah said,

﴿فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَـبَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً﴾​

(Then Waylun (woe) to those who write the book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah,'' to purchase with it a little price!).

This is another category of people among the Jews who called to misguidance with falsehood and lies about Allah, thriving on unjustly amassing people's property. `Waylun (woe)' carries meanings of destruction and perishing, and it is a well-known word in the Arabic language. Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said, "The little amount here means this life and all that it contains.''

 

[Eddy]

It was available, and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, were displeased seeing someone reading the Torah.

How do you know that?

It has been (CERTAINLY) corrupted and changed and contains falsehood.

Where is the evidence?

If the Torah or the Bible were still 100% from God, the Glorious Quran would have told us so and that we Muslims are to read them, but it doesn't.

Allah told the Prophet Muhammad to recite the Torah so by extension, every Muslim should also recite it.

I'm not an expert on the Thorah or Gospels, but I do know the very fact that when you say:
"written by men with the inspiration of God"
or
"Possibly some scribal errors in it"
It is enough proof to say that it is not the original word of God.
The word of God is flawless.
Flawless means without scribal errors, in original language, in complete form (without any addition or subtraction from it).

As I explained, the Bible was not written directly by God but by humans so your expectations are unfounded.

Where exactly did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah? Was it before Muhammad sas was illiterate or after?
Nowhere in the Quran did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah. Nor is there any narration that he sas ever read the Thorah. That is not possible.

Surah Ali 'Imran - 93-95 That's where Allah told Muhammad to recite the Torah.
but allah didn't mention that that Torah (version 1.0 or 2.0) was corrupted so how can you assume that?

‘So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)

That verse doesn't say the Torah was corrupted but it only says that some people misinterpreted the Torah and claimed that their misinterpretation was the word of Allah.

 

[Ümit]

Surah Ali 'Imran - 93-95 That's where Allah told Muhammad to recite the Torah.
but allah didn't mention that that Torah (version 1.0 or 2.0) was corrupted so how can you assume that?

Notice the quotation marks in that verse. Allah orders the prophet to say to the Jews "read from the Thorah..."
Not that he should read himself.

That verse doesn't say the Torah was corrupted but it only says that some people misinterpreted the Torah and claimed that their misinterpretation was the word of Allah.

??? really ???
To distord with your own hands means to misinterpret?

 

[Katakinobalu]

Sahih International: All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, [O Muhammad], "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

I'm confused, Muslims in general say the Torah and Injeel is not what Christians call Torah and the gospels. So, what Torah is Allah referring to? If Allah tell Mohammed to recite it then that Torah shouldn't be corrupted, right?

Good question. Because you can check from Torah about food or any situation , if the passage from Torah doesn’t overlap to Kuran. It should be approximately. Because, first haram food come from Rab to prophet Noah, Arab says you should not eat fresh bloody meat. The ayah says from Quran, if you tell the truth go and bring the Torah original word in Kuran Tevrat .tevrat means law or code. However, it shows Torah.

 

[Katakinobalu]

9 Genesis /And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

 

[Katakinobalu]

Notice the quotation marks in that verse. Allah orders the prophet to say to the Jews "read from the Thorah..."
Not that he should read himself.

??? really ???
To distord with your own hands means to misinterpret?

No, it does not say for Jews,because Jews list too long about haram food, it says for Christian’s,(nasara) because if you check the al harams food , in the book, mean Quran you will se the surah Maide 3ayah about haram food little bit different then the normal haram ayah, for example if you feeding in the soil you can eat it’s halal, but the same animal if you kill on the air and felt down , that means haram. This not a helal. Animals they shouldn’t be fall up from somewhere to ground. For any reason. Etc.


Mâide Sûresi 3: Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked The name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.