So was the Torah available to Mohammed?

[Eddy]

Sahih International: All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, [O Muhammad], "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

I'm confused, Muslims in general say the Torah and Injeel is not what Christians call Torah and the gospels. So, what Torah is Allah referring to? If Allah tell Mohammed to recite it then that Torah shouldn't be corrupted, right?

 

[Ümit]

aleykum selam Eddy,

This is a Quraan verse Von surah Al Imran (surah 3, verse 93)

For how I understand this is pretty obvious:
Allah reveals the Thorah through Musa as...lets say Thorah_1.0

The Jews then go ahead and change it to Thorah_2.0
Then they come to Muhammad sas and ask him trick questions about Islam which allegedly contradicts the Thorah_2.0

however, the Thorah_2.0 never had any authority in the court of Allahs law, so if Allah speaks about the Thorah, he speaks about Thorah_1.0
So, this Quraan verse trolls them back by saying, "if you are truthfull, bring the Thorah_1.0 and read from that one"...
which they will never do, because then, it would be obvious that they were not thuthful.

If you want to get more specific:
The Jews accused Mohammad sas for making some kind of food (camel food and camel milk) lawful, which was allegedly unlawful in the Thorah_2.0

The reality however, was different. God didn't forbid the consumption of camel meat or milk. it was always lawful.
Israel (prophet Yaqub as) got sick one day, and as his sickness prolonged, he vowed to God that if he got cured, he would leave certain types of food (camels meat and camels milk)
And as he got cured, he kept his promise and did that. so it was just a prohibation to himself and himself alone.

The children of Israel (the descendants of prophet Yaqub as just copied this as their custom and after generations thought it was forbidden to consume it and therefore made a law out of it. so they wrote it in their Thorah_2.0.

And then this verse comes torefer those Jews back to Thorah_1.0 to read from it if they are truthful.

 

[Eddy]

Thans for your response.
You said "The Jews then go ahead and change it to Torah 2.0"
That is the whole point of my investigation. When was the Torah changed to what you called Torah 2.0?
Where is the evidence that it was actually changed?
You might know that Jews and Christians don't believe the Torah was ever changed at all.
They do admit that the Torah and Gospels have mistakes (human mistakes) but they believe that the Torah and Gospels were written by men with the inspiration of God, therefore it is totally posible that there are some scrible errors there.
Do you know any way that proves the Torah was corrupted or changed? How did you get to that conclusion?
When Allah tells Muhammad to recite the Torah that obviously was during Muhammad's life (between 530 and 632) so it would be safe to say that at that point the Torah was the book the Jews had in their possesion and that book was not corrupted.
So when exactly was the Torah corrupted?
and where is the evidence?
In other words, where in the Islamic scriptures say that the Torah is corrupted?

 

[Ümit]

Thans for your response.
You said "The Jews then go ahead and change it to Torah 2.0"
That is the whole point of my investigation. When was the Torah changed to what you called Torah 2.0?
Where is the evidence that it was actually changed?

I'm not an expert on the Thorah or Gospels, but I do know the very fact that when you say:
"written by men with the inspiration of God"
or
"Possibly some scribal errors in it"
It is enough proof to say that it is not the original word of God.
The word of God is flawless.
Flawless means without scribal errors, in original language, in complete form (without any addition or subtraction from it).

You might know that Jews and Christians don't believe the Torah was ever changed at all.

Yes I do. but believing does not make something actually true. They can believe all they want.

When Allah tells Muhammad to recite the Torah that obviously was during Muhammad's life (between 530 and 632) so it would be safe to say that at that point the Torah was the book the Jews had in their possesion and that book was not corrupted.

???
Where exactly did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah? Was it before Muhammad sas was illiterate or after?
Nowhere in the Quran did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah. Nor is there any narration that he sas ever read the Thorah. That is not possible.
The Quraan of course mentions the Thorah in the very verse we are discussing in this topic and in several other verses I believe, but again, in the original version as it was revealed to Musa as. Not the 2.0 Version.

So when exactly was the Torah corrupted?
and where is the evidence?
In other words, where in the Islamic scriptures say that the Torah is corrupted?

Islamic scriptures?
‘So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)

Ibn Kathir about this verse 2:78-79:

Woe unto Those Criminals among the Jews

Allah said,

﴿فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَـبَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً﴾​

(Then Waylun (woe) to those who write the book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah,'' to purchase with it a little price!).

This is another category of people among the Jews who called to misguidance with falsehood and lies about Allah, thriving on unjustly amassing people's property. `Waylun (woe)' carries meanings of destruction and perishing, and it is a well-known word in the Arabic language. Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said, "The little amount here means this life and all that it contains.''

 

[Eddy]

It was available, and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, were displeased seeing someone reading the Torah.

How do you know that?

It has been (CERTAINLY) corrupted and changed and contains falsehood.

Where is the evidence?

If the Torah or the Bible were still 100% from God, the Glorious Quran would have told us so and that we Muslims are to read them, but it doesn't.

Allah told the Prophet Muhammad to recite the Torah so by extension, every Muslim should also recite it.

I'm not an expert on the Thorah or Gospels, but I do know the very fact that when you say:
"written by men with the inspiration of God"
or
"Possibly some scribal errors in it"
It is enough proof to say that it is not the original word of God.
The word of God is flawless.
Flawless means without scribal errors, in original language, in complete form (without any addition or subtraction from it).

As I explained, the Bible was not written directly by God but by humans so your expectations are unfounded.

Where exactly did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah? Was it before Muhammad sas was illiterate or after?
Nowhere in the Quran did Allah tell Muhammad sas to recite the Thorah. Nor is there any narration that he sas ever read the Thorah. That is not possible.

Surah Ali 'Imran - 93-95 That's where Allah told Muhammad to recite the Torah.
but allah didn't mention that that Torah (version 1.0 or 2.0) was corrupted so how can you assume that?

‘So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to those for what they have earned'. (Quran 2:79)

That verse doesn't say the Torah was corrupted but it only says that some people misinterpreted the Torah and claimed that their misinterpretation was the word of Allah.

 

[Ümit]

Surah Ali 'Imran - 93-95 That's where Allah told Muhammad to recite the Torah.
but allah didn't mention that that Torah (version 1.0 or 2.0) was corrupted so how can you assume that?

Notice the quotation marks in that verse. Allah orders the prophet to say to the Jews "read from the Thorah..."
Not that he should read himself.

That verse doesn't say the Torah was corrupted but it only says that some people misinterpreted the Torah and claimed that their misinterpretation was the word of Allah.

??? really ???
To distord with your own hands means to misinterpret?