Some positive news from Iraq

[MTAFFI]

Iraq is a mess thanks to the United States, and every time you mention it to one of these neocons, they always talk about Osama bin Laden and September 11. Guess what? Saddam was a bad guy, but he did not order his men to crash airplanes into the twin towers. Iraq was planned long ago, waaaay before 9/11. It is sad how these greedy American corporations are cashing in and pretty much looting the Iraqi people. Here's an example: Bridge is blown up. American company gets contract to rebuild. Iraqis pay for the rebuilding by selling their oil at extremely discounted prices. American company gets paid and rebuilds bridge. Now they pay some thugs to blow up some other place. Again, the American company comes in to "rebuild", and it goes on and on. This isn't the only way they are looting. Check out sites like http://www.antiwar.com and counterpunch.org, and you will see the truth.

Don't believe in the neocon propaganda pushed by people like MTAFFI. I wouldn't even be surprised if he was a paid agent here just to spread the lies. Read for yourself, the truth is out there. Even the American people are getting tired of this senseless war. God is saving a special place in hell for the neocons and their supporters, and thank God, the American people are waking up and are becoming more aware of the crimes of these crooks. Inshallah, they are thrown out of power, and a sensible government takes control in America.

Peace. eace:

Am I a neocon because I am happy about progress in Iraq? How are my posts propaganda? I love Islam, I love Allah, I love his prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but I do not love being judged by the likes of you because we do not share the same political ideas, I do not like brutal dictators, I do not like organizations that attack 2 buildings full of completely innocent people... What is funny about your perception of me is that it is totally incorrect, I dont even like the government that is in place right now, I dont like the president to much and I dont like the congress either. In my opinion it really needs an overhaul so that it can correctly address the needs of the American people rather than its own agendas. Am I still a neocon, or do you have some other word that you learned on your leftist propaganda sites counterpunch or antiwar that you can regurgitate onto this thread?

Side note: Isnt it funny how those who claim media and government propoganda often flock heavily to sites that are outright blatantly spewing propoganda, whether it be manipulated info or not, every day? TWO WORDS: SELF SERVING

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

Ricardo, i too admire the U.S.A. It is a tremendous country with great people, history and culture. In fact a knowlegeable Muslim was telling me the other day that some scholars saw about 25 years ago saw America as an example on how to treat citizens and secure the rights of people, which is today virtually non existant in the Muslim world all over. But today who needs Saddam when you have Guantanamo, Abu Grain and extraordinary rendition(kidnap)? As for Iraqis fighting to the death, that is a decision that they have to make as it is their own land. Of course if they do they will be called "terrorists", right? The Majority of them want foreign troops out, but who will listen to them eh? They voted in a prime minister who has to get permission from the Americans everytime he wants to move a battalion of troops! Whether or not the Iraqis will benefit from this invasion in the long run will be judged by history. It certainly doesn't look like that in Basra and these divisions will probably continue for a long long time. But of course we'll get plenty of good news feeds and pictures of tea with corrupt Arab Sheikhs until we reach the big one in November 2008!

 

[MTAFFI]

Ricardo, i too admire the U.S.A. It is a tremendous country with great people, history and culture. In fact a knowlegeable Muslim was telling me the other day that some scholars saw about 25 years ago saw America as an example on how to treat citizens and secure the rights of people, which is today virtually non existant in the Muslim world all over. But today who needs Saddam when you have Guantanamo, Abu Grain and extraordinary rendition(kidnap)? As for Iraqis fighting to the death, that is a decision that they have to make as it is their own land. Of course if they do they will be called "terrorists", right? The Majority of them want foreign troops out, but who will listen to them eh? They voted in a prime minister who has to get permission from the Americans everytime he wants to move a battalion of troops! Whether or not the Iraqis will benefit from this invasion in the long run will be judged by history. It certainly doesn't look like that in Basra and these divisions will probably continue for a long long time. But of course we'll get plenty of good news feeds and pictures of tea with corrupt Arab Sheikhs until we reach the big one in November 2008!

Gitmo and Abu Gharib are not something I think the US prides itself on and in my opinion it is embarrassing.

As for Iraqis fighting US troops, why would they? The US troops are there as a police force, not to harm the average Iraqi, which is probably why the ones who fight are considered terrorists because they are typically out to attack police and government organization and of course the food markets, etc.

Iraq doesnt get permission to move troops, they coordinate with the military force that has a strong presence in their country so they dont have any misconceptions over one another... How many battalions does Iraq have right now anyways?

History will be the judge, let us hope that it is in the favor of the Iraqis trying to rebuild their country today. In the grand scheme, I hope the US can be eventually looked upon as though we had good intentions, but even if the US comes out smelling like the backside of a donkey, who really cares as long as the Iraqis get out of this OK.

I dont think the good news about Iraq is because of the elections, I think it is because there are good things happening there, if it got bad tomorrow you can bet your rear end it would be all over the news, as a matter of fact it is anyway, even if it is only one suicide a day it is still reported. The media is not conservative and do not lean favorably for this war, turn on any US station but Fox and you will notice that...

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

quote:Gitmo and Abu Gharib are not something I think the US prides itself on and in my opinion it is embarrassing.

agreed

quote:As for Iraqis fighting US troops, why would they?

You would have to ask the thousands and thousands of Iraqis that did and still do so. Perhaps it could be any of the following: humilation, torture, rape, detention, bombing, national pride, religous zeal, opportunism, to get payed; take a pick?

quote:The US troops are there as a police force, not to harm the average Iraqi

So how comes the vast majority of Iraqis want the Americans to leave the country and again the vast majority regard them as occupiers?

quote:which is probably why the ones who fight are considered terrorists because they are typically out to attack police and government organization and of course the food markets, etc.

This is of course the official line given by General Petraus. Do all of the Iraqis that take arms target the "government"? Are there not Iraqi groups that don't target police etc? Are there are not Iraqi resistance groups that oppose both the American intervention and the Alqaeda network? Iraqi groups that are against targeting civilians don't exist right? They are all just lunatic Arab terrorists who refuse to be civilized. You see this is one of the main reasons the war went wrong, people thought that they could read the mind of Iraqis and expected them to all welcome the occupation with flowers and salute the generals. Any that didn't is "typically" an Arab Marzlem radical!

 

[MTAFFI]

quote:Gitmo and Abu Gharib are not something I think the US prides itself on and in my opinion it is embarrassing.

agreed

I knew it was possible!

quote:As for Iraqis fighting US troops, why would they?

You would have to ask the thousands and thousands of Iraqis that did and still do so. Perhaps it could be any of the following: humilation, torture, rape, detention, bombing, national pride, religous zeal, opportunism, to get payed; take a pick?

I would rather not pick but know the actual fact as to why an Iraqi would want to kill someone who alleviated them from a ruthless brutal dictator and only tries to provide security and help establish infrastructure. If they are rape victims or torture victims I can understand and would agree that their fight is worth while and honorable, however there certainly isnt that many of those in Iraq, while I do not ignore that they indeed exist, the number of suicide bombs and attacks on American troops would be so limited that Iraq could handle itself and the US would leave, would you not agree? Humiliation is no reason to kill, protest sure, but not kill, neither is detention, national pride, religious zeal, opportunism or to get paid, if that is an Iraqis reason to kill then yes I would consider him to be a terrorist.

quote:The US troops are there as a police force, not to harm the average Iraqi

So how comes the vast majority of Iraqis want the Americans to leave the country and again the vast majority regard them as occupiers?

I think many Iraqis believe if the US presence is not there then the presence of the terrorist networks will also leave, however given the new level of cooperation from the Iraqis, I think they realize that this is not the case and that the US presence will leave much sooner if they help them rid the land of these "opportunists"

quote:which is probably why the ones who fight are considered terrorists because they are typically out to attack police and government organization and of course the food markets, etc.

This is of course the official line given by General Petraus. Do all of the Iraqis that take arms target the "government"?

I dont think "all" no..

Are there not Iraqi groups that don't target police etc?

I am sure that there must be, but their numbers must be small given the number of American troops casualites and the duration of this war so far

Are there are not Iraqi resistance groups that oppose both the American intervention and the Alqaeda network?

Absolutely

Iraqi groups that are against targeting civilians don't exist right?

Yes there must be, however again given the number of civilian casualties in Iraq compared to US forces and Iraqi police forces I have to say that number doesnt look favorably upon this particular group

They are all just lunatic Arab terrorists who refuse to be civilized. You see this is one of the main reasons the war went wrong, people thought that they could read the mind of Iraqis and expected them to all welcome the occupation with flowers and salute the generals. Any that didn't is "typically" an Arab Marzlem radical!

I dont believe this at all, I think it was expected that the Iraqis would behave civilized while this jerk was hung up to dry, but they didnt and the fact is, it was a grave miscalculation. One the US will not soon forget, sadly it has taken a much higher toll on the Iraqis and an even high toll on the american reputation.

 

[Jayda]

What would you have me do? Respond without defending what is being done there today? It is a mess and it needs to be cleaned up, if we dont who will? Flower power accomplishes nothing, if we leave the terrorist will regroup and take Iraq for everything it is worth and those poor people will have endured everything from then until present for nothing and our national security will be at an even higher risk.. What is your proposal, short of inventing a time machine to stop it all from happening.. Do you leave the troops for protection or withdrawl them and condemn the Iraqis to an almost certain destruction

so we have to fight the war... because we are fighting the war?

Where did I give the impression I was a Christian? Or a better question might even be when, if it is more than say 30 or so days ago, I wouldnt have been giving the wrong impression. As for being an apostate, in my mind I have been a muslim my whole life I just wasnt given the information until recently... but yes in the general sense I am an apostate of Catholicism

si... that's true (bold). it's better you make these things known though...

 

[MTAFFI]

so we have to fight the war... because we are fighting the war?

You answer my questions with a question... very clever. In a sense though yes, when we entered Iraq to topple their government we had and have a responsibility to restore the countries better half to at the very least a functioning society. I answered yours now you answer mine from the previous post:

What would you have me do? Respond without defending what is being done there today? It is a mess and it needs to be cleaned up, if we dont who will? Flower power accomplishes nothing, if we leave the terrorist will regroup and take Iraq for everything it is worth and those poor people will have endured everything from then until present for nothing and our national security will be at an even higher risk.. What is your proposal, short of inventing a time machine to stop it all from happening.. Do you leave the troops for protection or withdrawl them and condemn the Iraqis to an almost certain destruction

si... that's true (bold). it's better you make these things known though...

I agree, although I fear now that because of my political views some of the Muslims on this site will try to condemn me or call me an apostate etc. and in the interest of trying to keep them from a sin I left it undisclosed

 

[KelleyD]

Kelley, I don't think Alqaeda is largely due to the American foreign policy. !

Really? I was under the impression that we encouraged and enhanced Alqaeda all during the 80's to "be all they could be" so they could push the Russians back. But if they were largely in existence before then, then I stand corrected.

They have an ideology which they seek to impose on all Muslims regardless of whether they are under occupation or not!

So they were blowing things up before American banksters came in during the 60s and bought out large oil refineries (tricked the Arabs, really, by loaning them huge sums of money and then recalling their loans--taking the refineraries instead of the loan and created EXXon Mobile, Amaco, SOHIO, etc...) and before we came in during the 80's and 90's and set up bases?

They set off bombs in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Pakistan and various other places. The group led by Zarqawi was trying to blow up Kurdish secular parties and labeling them as "apostates". !

Yes. But isn't the reason they are doing these things because the royals and the politicians of those countries are in bed with the West and they are afraid the people are going right along with them? Isn't this violence still about American presence in a land where it is not wanted? I know the majority of Muslims are non-violent but don't the majority of Muslims int hat area also want America to pull out and go back home? And if so, then aren't the goals the same for peaceful Muslims and Alqaeda Muslims? The difference is the methodology. Peace versus violence to achieve your goals. And if that is the case, then this is where the Quaran, and governments said to be back by the Quaran play a leading role. Does it advocate peace when you are attacked or does it advocate defending yourself? And if not, how long must you be bombed before allowed to fight back? One year? Ten years? Twenty? While all the innocent are dying, who in the government is fighting for them? Anyone? MiddleEastern countries, like America, seem to both have two classes. The really rich and the really poor. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one is going to do it for you. These are just my thoughts--please feel free to correct me where I may be wrong. I'm not advocating violence. I'm just trying to understand it.

The propagators of the war lumped all of the Iraqis as "Alqaeda", which is largely an isolated and unpopular group. They also never mention the vast majority of Iraqis want foreign troops out, but as Gates said they will stay there for years and decades. So Alqaeda is a scare card and boogey man to invade Muslim states and place them in the hands of local colonial governors!

Agreed and well said.

 

[KelleyD]

Thank Allah for an intelligent, educated, strong voice of reason. Please don't let ignorant personal attacks and propaganda filled rebuttals discourage from posting.

Thanks. I appreciate your post. I was afraid I might be getting banned. It's not my intention to incite anyone. I am just speaking the truth as I see it.

 

[KelleyD]

For some people, blaming the U.S. for everything has become pop culture.

Not "blame" so much as "expose".

 

[KelleyD]

You make a lot of good points and to be honest I can sympathize with many of them and then there are others I could provide fine rebuttal to, but I do not wish to derail the topic which is "positive news from Iraq" not the "history of conflict between the US and the middle east"(although I am sure that may be a great thread ), not trying to be a wise guy just dont want this thread closed just yet. I can say though that obviously there are two sides to each story, the US and any other country group or person in this world is always going to be looking out for its own best interests, it is the way to survival. For every conflict you mentioned there are rights for both Muslims and Americans to be angry (or at least the situations that involve the US) If you would like please PM me, you seem to be a very logical person and I would be glad to discuss any of these conflicts with you, or better yet start a thread with your post! I am sure neither of our views would change much but I am sure it could be some very healthy discussion and who knows we and other may learn something new. eace:

Well, I did get a bit carried away. I didn't mean to derail the topic. When I think about what good may be coming out of Iraq, I have to also weigh the loss both sides have sustained and ask if it has been worth it....and if it has, for whom? Certainly, Saddam was a bad character, but is Bush much better? I don't know how much of what your report is real national building or propoganda so we can justify to the American people the 11 trillion (as of today's date) that we have spent on this "war of terror" in a country where the majority of the people have nothing to do with Alqueda.

Thanks for your suggestion. I thought as a limited member I couldn't start threads or pm. I'll check it out and if I can I will start a new thread.

 

[Cognescenti]

But still doesn't change the issue or fact that they armed, helped and effectively turned a blind eye to several of Saddam's massacres.

Look, for once and for all. The US did not arm Iraq. They overwhelmingly had Russian weapons, some Chinese rifles and Scuds, a few North Korean missiles and few few French jets and antiship missiles.

The US did not supply Iraq with chemical weapons. He used 50-80 year old technology. He made them himself with the childhood chemistry kit his parents gave him. To our knowledge he never used biological weapons but he did manufacture them in significant quantities although he was perhaps was not able to weaponize the anthrax spores (or else he would likely have used them on the Iranians). He may have purchased some Anthrax culture from an American company (just like any veterinary school in the world might do) but this was a bacterial culture not a bioweapon.

The US did supply Iraq with intelligence on the Iranians during the Iran Iraq War. They also supplied Iran with intelligence on the Iraqis when it looked like the Iranians were losing. Nasty business that Iran/Iraq War.

I have clearly stated that American policy is not to blame for all the going ons in that country.Thus, it is not about blaming the U.S.A for everything.

Wow, Omar! Now we are getting somewhere

If Blair and Bush claimed that they bring democracy, peace and justice to Iraq and they miserably fail, then we have to scrutinize them.

Let's see, Rumsfeld...gone. Blair...gone...Bush...out in 12 months...there..are you happy?

..Iraqi [sic] is essentially a failed state under the grip of rival militias.

This is largely true with the exception of the Kurds. So, do you want the US to leave abruptly, or not? This is the real world. There is no "redo" button.

 

[Keltoi]

Not "blame" so much as "expose".

Yeah, lots of internet journalists out there too

 

[Jayda]

You answer my questions with a question... very clever. In a sense though yes, when we entered Iraq to topple their government we had and have a responsibility to restore the countries better half to at the very least a functioning society. I answered yours now you answer mine from the previous post:

What would you have me do? Respond without defending what is being done there today? It is a mess and it needs to be cleaned up, if we dont who will? Flower power accomplishes nothing, if we leave the terrorist will regroup and take Iraq for everything it is worth and those poor people will have endured everything from then until present for nothing and our national security will be at an even higher risk.. What is your proposal, short of inventing a time machine to stop it all from happening.. Do you leave the troops for protection or withdrawl them and condemn the Iraqis to an almost certain destruction

si, as time goes by you will learn cleverness is a hallmark of women sexual dimorphism promises that we will never be physically stronger than you, ergo we must rely on other strengths. my point was a simple challenge of the logic of colin powell's pottery barn argument, which was at the time considered a defeatest copout and (in a rather bizarre turn of events) is now the single reason we remain in iraq harassing civilians and attracting the attention of every whackjob with an agenda.

i would have you admit that we have failed in iraq, rather than have you celebrate what amounts accomplishing the satisfactory. yay! we have kind of established order in certain regions of iraq!! oh joy! it only took four years of bloodshed you cannot possibly imagine bathing in the blue glow coming from your computer screen in the comfort of your nice, safe, study at home.

i would have you admit that this war was based on a lie, is inherently immoral and that we have failed once again in our pursuit of these morals we pretend to champion. i would politely request you face the reality that this isn't a victory, it's an excuse to justify a failure. and i would have you bow out of the war in a quiet orderly fashion devoid of the hero worship and jingoism, and poised to accept (financially and morally) the responsibilities we must face as a nation that has greviously wronged another nation.

...since you asked...

I agree, although I fear now that because of my political views some of the Muslims on this site will try to condemn me or call me an apostate etc. and in the interest of trying to keep them from a sin I left it undisclosed

allow me to give you some advice... don't care. if you really did convert because you believe then that is between you and God, and nobody, absolutely nobody should change your mind. especially given the lofty ideals to which islam claims to adhere (complete submission to God). if you ever read a bible again, reread the stories of Job and King David. Job lost everything, literally everything, for his believe in God... King David was rejected by his country and forced to fight for the philistines (pagans), laughed at by his wife... who called him an embarassment, and ultimately was forced to send his army out to kill his first and closest son... all because of his belief in God.

these two people are examples of men. created (per genesis) for the purpose of glorifying God... they did not cave, they did not falter, they did not change and they did not care what the teeming masses of failure thought of them. if you are truly convinced you have put God before everything in your life, why do you think i should pity you for 'outing' yourself as a muslim among muslims you have not and will never meet?

men who have 'submitted' to God do not have fears, they have trust.

where exactly is God in your list of priorities?

que Dios te bendiga

 

[MTAFFI]

si, as time goes by you will learn cleverness is a hallmark of women sexual dimorphism promises that we will never be physically stronger than you, ergo we must rely on other strengths.

Yeah, my wife tries that as well

i would have you admit that we have failed in iraq, rather than have you celebrate what amounts accomplishing the satisfactory. yay! we have kind of established order in certain regions of iraq!! oh joy! it only took four years of bloodshed you cannot possibly imagine bathing in the blue glow coming from your computer screen in the comfort of your nice, safe, study at home.

Iraq is a failure, but some good things have come from it and hopefully in the future more will. As far as 4 years of bloodshed goes, it really is sad it is taking this long, but think of the magnitude of what is being done. This isnt just a weekend fixer upper, we are talking about rebuilding a country from the ground up, with a pesky little infestation of people who like to kill without any discrimination or care about the country.

i would have you admit that this war was based on a lie, is inherently immoral and that we have failed once again in our pursuit of these morals we pretend to champion. i would politely request you face the reality that this isn't a victory, it's an excuse to justify a failure. and i would have you bow out of the war in a quiet orderly fashion devoid of the hero worship and jingoism, and poised to accept (financially and morally) the responsibilities we must face as a nation that has greviously wronged another nation.

This war was based not so much on a lie, but more on a miscalculation and poor judgment and one mans dream of finishing daddies job. I disagree, however, that it is immoral, particularly since we removed a dictator and havent been just driving around killing people, instead we have been making an attempt at securing the country and rebuilding the things we messed up.

Now as far as financially being responsible what exactly are you suggesting? That we just send them some money like a man who stepped out on his wife and kid and just say here let us pay you off? To me that isnt a good idea, way to simple since money cant solve everything. In fact, I think it would be immoral at this point to "bow out" and just send them a child support check every month. Ever heard the expression "Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for life"? That is kind of how I feel about Iraq, we have to show them and help them to get stability, once they have that they can build from there, but at least they will know how to take care of themselves, remember these people have lived under an oppressive ruthless dictator for over 30 years, this is all brand new to them

allow me to give you some advice... don't care. if you really did convert because you believe then that is between you and God, and nobody, absolutely nobody should change your mind. especially given the lofty ideals to which islam claims to adhere (complete submission to God). if you ever read a bible again, reread the stories of Job and King David. Job lost everything, literally everything, for his believe in God... King David was rejected by his country and forced to fight for the philistines (pagans), laughed at by his wife... who called him an embarassment, and ultimately was forced to send his army out to kill his first and closest son... all because of his belief in God.

these two people are examples of men. created (per genesis) for the purpose of glorifying God... they did not cave, they did not falter, they did not change and they did not care what the teeming masses of failure thought of them. if you are truly convinced you have put God before everything in your life, why do you think i should pity you for 'outing' yourself as a muslim among muslims you have not and will never meet?

men who have 'submitted' to God do not have fears, they have trust.

Thank you for your advice, and just so you know, I dont really "care", it isnt like it hurts my feelings if someone doesnt like me on this forum, or in person really, I am a big boy I can handle it. I dont need anyones pity, and the only things I fear are spiders, they are grotesque and in my opinion they are a curse on the world.

where exactly is God in your list of priorities?

que Dios te bendiga

Now you are just getting personal... if you really must know he is 1st on my list, with my family