Some questions on my mind.

[Skillganon]

I would not call it a war against Islam. I would call it prejudice against Arabs. Has anybody noticed that non-Arab Muslims have not been targeted? The war on Terror has been confined to Arabic nations. Non-Arab Muslims are not harassed. The problem is not that Americans are anti-Muslim, the problem is Americans are very racialy biased. Racial discrimination is still very much alive and active. I would say that virtually every non-white citizen in the USA has experienced prejudice, no matter what his religion is.

I too have notice that mainly their WAR is confined to the arab nations.
Any reason why?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Their is a purpose, but I am afraid many don't read the books I read. He's an american author, a University professor in the Department of Modern Languages and Linguistics. Anyone intersted?

 

[TheRightPathI]

Ehm, are you serious? The US has one of the toughest anti-narcotics laws and enforcement in the developed world. They most certainly take it serious. Just because one problem is bigger than another doesn't mean the smaller problem should be ignored.

Salam, ARE YOU JOKING ME? I just graduated from high school two years ago. I could right now in a matter of minutes get all the pot I needed for like a year if I really wanted to. All types of people did it in highscool and ANYONE could easily have access to it, same goes for heroin, crack, and all the other drugs.
My brother, was telling me how some people he never would suspect, have done pot or other drugs.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Do they assume that any Islamic state would send terrorists against them?

Yes.

Would they do that without a reason?

Is being an 'infidel' a reason?

 

[QuranStudy]

Is being an 'infidel' a reason?

Nope.

 

[Skillganon]

Nope.

Good answer. Very Informative, but maybe it is not the answer he want's.

 

[Woodrow]

To the 'common man' perhaps. But those who direct American foreign policy are not that ignorant and don't use simplistic logic like that.

Certain interpretations of Islam became the enemy, because those who attack the US do it in name of Islam, simple. When you write pages of stuff like: "This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.". Well, lets just say you get the impression Islam has something to do with it.

However, all of the overt activities directed towards Muslims have been in Arabic Nations, which have less than 15% of the worlds Muslims


I disagree. While this may be true for some bigots, but overall even Americans realize this is about Islam, not Arabs.

However those of us who are not of Arabic heritage can walk the streets, have no problems with our non-Muslim neighbors and are never harased by the police or subjected to scrutiny when we go into public buildings or board airplanes.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Good answer. Very Informative, but maybe it is not the answer he want's.

The only awnser I want is the real one.

 

[Skillganon]

The only awnser I want is the real one.

Look up towards the heaven, and don't take you eye it or you will miss it. :rollseyes

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Look up towards the heaven, and don't take you eye it or you will miss it. :rollseyes

What?

What does 'don't take you eye it' mean? :giggling:

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Because of the many contacts between Bin Laden and those around him and the Islamic Courts Union in Somalia.

Please elaborate on the ''many'' so-called links and please no hearsay C.I.A/Pentagon dogma

ICU snubs Bin laden

Like I said, these organizations share the same hope in the establishment of a caliphate

it's not just the organisations who hope this..

and the destruction of non-Islamic government in the Muslim world.

you mean corrupt governments

They are revolutionaries and thus a threat to the status quo and stability.

friend the Islamic Courts delivered stability before the status quo was anarchy

For example, they have in the past sheltered those who were held responsible for the attacks on the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 in which over 300 people died..

Never proven to be true

Islamic leaders in Mogadishu have invited international observers to Somalia to conduct a fact-finding mission about the possible presence of terrorists in the Horn of African country. The proposal appears to be an effort to dispel concerns that the Supreme Islamic Council, which seized control of Mogadishu and other parts of Somalia last month, may be harboring al-Qaida operatives.

Somalia's Islamic Leaders Invite International Observers to Conduct Fact-Finding Mission

i wonder why nobody is answering the invitation

2 months have passed now

are they afraid that they will be proven wrong? and therefore can't use the old lame Al Qaeda Al Qaeda card on Somalia?

Question has U.S intelligence service in the last 4 years provided any concrete evidence at ALL??

and not

''allegedly''

''they might''

''potential''

it's sad that there trying to put the terrorist tag on a people's revolution

this is an indigeneous movement not a foreign one.

and you can't stop it you can only slow it down:happy:

 

[KAding]

I too have notice that mainly their WAR is confined to the arab nations.
Wny reason why?

Is Afghanistan an Arab nation? Is Iran an Arab nation? Is Pakistan an arab nation? Are the Islamic guerilla in Southern Phillipines arabs? Are Somalis arabs?

So I disagree. Much of the attention of US policy went to non-Arabs. US policy makers are not stupid, they can understand the difference between a Muslim and an arab!

Their is a purpose, but I am afraid many don't read the books I read.

Who are 'they'? Those who decide American foreign policy? They don't read books at the US state department?

Again, it's not Joe Sixpack that makes US policy!

 

[KAding]

Please elaborate on the ''many'' so-called links and please no hearsay C.I.A/Pentagon dogma

ICU snubs Bin laden

No CIA/Pentagon hearsay? The intention of this thread seemed to me to be to understand why Americans act as they do. Much of that action is based on analysis by the CIA and the Pentagon. You might disagree with these analysis, but certainly the US governments use it when they decide policy. Simply saying "but it's the pentagon saying it" is not a refutation of any of the claims. In this case it was actually the FBI who made the link to some members/groups that are now in the ICU.

At the very least the US believes these people are sympathetic to Al-qaeda. I would suggest you read the wikipedia page on one of the leaders of the ICU in Somalia, it might help you understand why the US is concerned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Dahir_Aweys

The US don't trust them one bit. And I can hardly blame them. Remember that Bin Laden himself claimed involvement in Somalia.

it's not just the organisations who hope this..

True. And? These people all belong to the same group of what Westerners call 'Islamists'. These are revolutionary movements, who rarely limit themselves to only their country, but generally have 'bigger' ideas.

you mean corrupt governments

Some are corrupt, some are not. Turkey is not particularly corrupt, nor is Malaysia or Indonesia. But I have yet to see an Islamic state that is not also corrupt though. I don't believe Iran, Saudi Arabia or the Taliban are any better personally.

friend the Islamic Courts delivered stability before the status quo was anarchy

Sure. Americans don't really care about who governs Somalia itself, they only hope whoever does won't give shelter to those who plot against the US.

Never proven to be true

Perhaps not. But there are suspicions, enough of them to make US policy hostile towards the ICU.

Somalia's Islamic Leaders Invite International Observers to Conduct Fact-Finding Mission

i wonder why nobody is answering the invitation

2 months have passed now

are they afraid that they will be proven wrong? and therefore can't use the old lame Al Qaeda Al Qaeda card on Somalia?

Question has U.S intelligence service in the last 4 years provided any concrete evidence at ALL??

I don't know. They certainly made enough specific claims, about the Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya in Somalia being funded by Bin Laden. Bin Laden claiming Somalia "was his biggest victory". The FBI conducted a criminal investigation into the embassy bombings, so I assume there are plenty of facts in there. There was a trial on it after all.

and not

''allegedly''

''they might''

''potential''

Well, clearly they are themselves still in doubt. Otherwise they would have acted more decisively in Somalia. So far they have only expressed concern about the situation. They have not intervened.

it's sad that there trying to put the terrorist tag on a people's revolution

this is an indigeneous movement not a foreign one.

Well, I don't think the US ever called the ICU itself a terrorist organization. Only that some of its members had links to terror organizations.

and you can't stop it you can only slow it down:happy:

Well, if the Somalis want to be ruled by an Islamic regime, by all means they should and the US should stay out of it. But if, like in Afghanistan, people start using it as a safe-haven and plot against the US, then you can expect the US to act.

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

No CIA/Pentagon hearsay? The intention of this thread seemed to me to be to understand why Americans act as they do. Much of that action is based on analysis by the CIA and the Pentagon. You might disagree with these analysis, but certainly the US governments use it when they decide policy. Simply saying "but it's the pentagon saying it" is not a refutation of any of the claims. In this case it was actually the FBI who made the link to some members/groups that are now in the ICU.

SADDAM HAD NO LINKS WITH AL QAEDA

wasn't this one of the reason why they invaded my brothers and sisters?

so no WMD'S and no link with Al qaeda

this is simply pure colonization

At the very least the US believes these people are sympathetic to Al-qaeda.

If the Americans or Westerners know terrorism as Islam and terrorists as Muslims, I am a Muslim; if they know the terrorists as people who want to install an Islamic government, I am that. But if they know terrorists as those who kill people or create problems and tensions, I am not that.-Hassan Dahir Aweys

I would suggest you read the wikipedia page on one of the leaders of the ICU in Somalia, it might help you understand why the US is concerned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Dahir_Aweys

The US don't trust them one bit. And I can hardly blame them. Remember that Bin Laden himself claimed involvement in Somalia.

Bin laden can claim alot of things it doesn't mean all his claims have a concrete foundation to stand on

Bin laden has never been in somalia in the last 15 years

the warlord thugz would have spotted him from miles away and then chase him to get the 25 million $ reward

True. And? These people all belong to the same group of what Westerners call 'Islamists'. These are revolutionary movements, who rarely limit themselves to only their country, but generally have 'bigger' ideas.

so are you saying the ''christianists'' limit themselves to their own countries??

that's funny

Some are corrupt, some are not. Turkey is not particularly corrupt, nor is Malaysia or Indonesia. But I have yet to see an Islamic state that is not also corrupt though. I don't believe Iran, Saudi Arabia or the Taliban are any better personally.

when i say corruption i'm not talking about finance (evendo in some countries it is a major factor) but about Islam

what muslim want is security

they want their governments to act swiftly and coloborate with other muslim countries when there in need

they want to be free to practice their religion

Sure. Americans don't really care about who governs Somalia itself, they only hope whoever does won't give shelter to those who plot against the US.

but what the US is doing is wrong

they were invited to do research with a fact finding team in somalia with the blessing of the ICU and end the speculation of so-called al-qaeda fighters being in somalia

Perhaps not. But there are suspicions, enough of them to make US policy hostile towards the ICU.

i don't know if you remember a video 2 months back about arab fighters being allegedly in the somali Capital

they showed somali fighters under night vision and try to claim they were arabs :heated:

I don't know. They certainly made enough specific claims, about the Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya in Somalia being funded by Bin Laden. Bin Laden claiming Somalia "was his biggest victory". The FBI conducted a criminal investigation into the embassy bombings, so I assume there are plenty of facts in there. There was a trial on it after all.

did Bin laden claim he was part of the black hawk down battle?

and he called a thousand innocent civilians dead a victory?

first of all Aideed was a warlord with no connections to bin laden or what so ever

bin laden can call hizbollah's war with Israel his biggest victory it doesn't mean he had anything to do with it

Well, clearly they are themselves still in doubt. Otherwise they would have acted more decisively in Somalia. So far they have only expressed concern about the situation. They have not intervened.

you know if US does tries to come in my country i rather have them say it directly and stop playing around the bush with ''allegedly'' ''they might'' ''potential''

they were invited to see for themselves and they have still not answered the invitation

makes me think wether they want to invade my country for some sinister unknown reason

 

[KAding]

Salam, ARE YOU JOKING ME? I just graduated from high school two years ago. I could right now in a matter of minutes get all the pot I needed for like a year if I really wanted to. All types of people did it in highscool and ANYONE could easily have access to it, same goes for heroin, crack, and all the other drugs.
My brother, was telling me how some people he never would suspect, have done pot or other drugs.

But that is not because lack of trying by law enforcement or the absence of laws against narcotics! The amount of money being spend on the 'war on drugs' is ludicrous. IMHO it is one of the biggest law enforcement mistakes ever made in the US, there are so many people in prison in the US on drug related crimes.

 

[KAding]

SADDAM HAD NO LINKS WITH AL QAEDA

wasn't this one of the reason why they invaded my brothers and sisters?

so no WMD'S and no link with Al qaeda

What does Iraq have to do with our discussion about Islamic states?

this is simply pure colonization

Uh huh, I can already see all those American settlers preparing for the colonization of Iraq.

If the Americans or Westerners know terrorism as Islam and terrorists as Muslims, I am a Muslim; if they know the terrorists as people who want to install an Islamic government, I am that. But if they know terrorists as those who kill people or create problems and tensions, I am not that.-Hassan Dahir Aweys

This is ridiculous, of course those who want to install Islamic government are not 'terrorist' because of that. Some have links to terrorists though, which is enough to make the US suspicious.

Bin laden can claim alot of things it doesn't mean all his claims have a concrete foundation to stand on

Bin laden has never been in somalia in the last 15 years

True. If he were there now the Americans would already be in Mogadishu.

so are you saying the ''christianists'' limit themselves to their own countries??

that's funny

What are Christianists? Do you know any Christian movements that want to create a theocratic state? Christianity has nothing like the 'sharia' that would need to be implemented by a theocratic government.

when i say corruption i'm not talking about finance (evendo in some countries it is a major factor) but about Islam

what muslim want is security

they want their governments to act swiftly and coloborate with other muslim countries when there in need

they want to be free to practice their religion

If you think the Taliban was not corrupt, that Iran is not corrupt, I just have to say I disagree with you. But again, this is the clash of values I was talking about. You wanted to know why there is friction between the West and the Islamic world, well this is one of the reasons. What is corrupt to you is not corrupt to me and vise versa.

but what the US is doing is wrong

they were invited to do research with a fact finding team in somalia with the blessing of the ICU and end the speculation of so-called al-qaeda fighters being in somalia

What is the US doing exactly?

i don't know if you remember a video 2 months back about arab fighters being allegedly in the somali Capital

they showed somali fighters under night vision and try to claim they were arabs :heated:

Are there no Muhajideen in Somalia? Why not? They were in Bosnia, in Chechnya, in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, in Algeria. But there are none in Somalia? But that doesn't matter anyway, a Muhajideen is not necesarrily a terrorist of course.

But hey, I agree with you. I hope the US isn't stupid enough to intervene in Somalia. I only responded to your first post because I think you painted too simple a picture of reality. Americans are not completely without reason to mistrust for example the Taliban or the ICU.

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

What does Iraq have to do with our discussion about Islamic states?

They were examples of blunders made by the US intelligence services

the same services that now use the ''allegedly'' card on somalia

Uh huh, I can already see all those American settlers preparing for the colonization of Iraq.

American army,british army etc etc

American reconstruction companies!

american oil companies

british companies

Saddam had signed deals in 97/98 with Chinese and russian companies

This is ridiculous, of course those who want to install Islamic government are not 'terrorist' because of that. Some have links to terrorists though, which is enough to make the US suspicious.

yeah but US sometimes is simply borderline paranoid wouldn't you agree?

True. If he were there now the Americans would already be in Mogadishu.

then you agree with me that this ICU movement is an indigeneous one and not a puppet movement that takes orders from foreign puppeteers as the media likes to paint it

What are Christianists? Do you know any Christian movements that want to create a theocratic state? Christianity has nothing like the 'sharia' that would need to be implemented by a theocratic government.

Christianist

also when a person in a american democratic court is sworn in

wich book is used? ----> the bible

Suskind, a former Wall Street Journal reporter, quotes other Republicans who have concluded that Bush believes – or at least gives the impression he believes – that his judgments are directed by God.

In a British TV interview, Blair said of his controversial decision to send troops to Iraq: "If you have faith about these things, then you realize that judgment is made by other people. If you believe in God, it's made by God as well."

:rollseyes

If you think the Taliban was not corrupt,that Iran is not corrupt,I just have to say I disagree with you. But again, this is the clash of values I was talking about. You wanted to know why there is friction between the West and the Islamic world, well this is one of the reasons. What is corrupt to you is not corrupt to me and vise versa

well i've seen a BBC special on afghanistan a while back and it was very sad

at least under taliban rule women didn't have to fear ''rape''

at least under taliban people had jobs

at least under taliban people had electricity and clean water

"During the Taliban time, you could walk the streets safely day and night. Now we have to sleep with guns for pillows because we can be robbed at any time," said Abdul Haddi, 35, a car dealer. "Now we have the freedom to listen to music, and nobody bothers us about wearing beards, but music does not put food on the table. We prefer extremism to instability."

At a nursing school on the grounds of Mir Weis Hospital, female students and teachers this week expressed grave concern for their safety in the streets. Saying they feared being accosted and molested by gunmen, they begged the school's director for door-to-door bus service so they would not have to walk or wait outdoors.

During the Taliban era, the school received special permission to teach girls after agreeing to follow strict Islamic rules, with no men allowed on the premises, no music or parties and special curtained buses bringing veiled students to class. Now, the girls said, the atmosphere inside the school is more relaxed, but the conditions outside are far more frightening.

"We are so confused and worried. There are gunmen everywhere, and there is no stability," said Khatira, 18, a nursing student. "I hate guns, and I only want to study. I was born in a time of fighting, and I never saw any stable conditions except with the Taliban. In the time of extremism, I could study safely. Now I can't."

These stories remind me of my country

Many Residents Longingly Recall Life Under Strict Islamic Code; 'We Prefer Extremism to Instability'

What is the US doing exactly?

have a look

Are there no Muhajideen in Somalia? Why not? They were in Bosnia, in Chechnya, in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, in Algeria. But there are none in Somalia? But that doesn't matter anyway, a Muhajideen is not necesarrily a terrorist of course.

somali born arabs,pakistanis,indians,oromos shouldn't be confused with foreign fighters

But hey, I agree with you. I hope the US isn't stupid enough to intervene in Somalia. I only responded to your first post because I think you painted too simple a picture of reality. Americans are not completely without reason to mistrust for example the Taliban or the ICU.

true but like i said before sometimes this mistrust is borderline paranoia

 

[sameer]

ok, what caused the 1979 bombing of the embassy in Iran? Did they up and bombed it for fun, or was there a reason for it?
Does the US need war in its economy /lifestyle? I mean, does war help the US economy and they need to keep getting/identifying "emenies"? Does this help a particualr party stay in power? or rather distract its citezens from the problems at home?

...........................

Has the US backed itself into a corner? maening they cannot quit the war until bin laden and al qaeda has been erradicated. If they did, then they would lose politcial gain because the whole "war" would have been lost seeeing that these were the scape goats used to justify the war. So now, since
there are many freedom fighters popping up in various countries in the world and as long as the american public percieves themn to be the same as or resemble al qeada then the war must go on regardless on the intentions of the freedom fighters. But then again, this may be what the political players want/need to stay in power.
.......................

I remember all the movies for a period of b4 the 90's had the russians as the enemy, thus creating the racist thoughts in ppl minds. So today, i guess the same is being done by identifying anyone who wears a beard or has the last name of Mohammed, Ali, etc by creating islamaphobia in the ppl minds. So is the goverment using or taking advantage of the apparant racism that exists among some ppl in the states and calling it patriotism instead.

...

Or is it simply seeing that Islamic ideology and shari'ah had once controlled the majority of the civilised world for a number of centuries inthe past, then this is a great threat to the western social/political structure and the uprising must be quelled early? They have already destroyed the bigest threat of communism (USSR) now, next in line is the idea of true Islamic states ?

 

[sameer]

Actually, the US is very much engaged in what the call the 'war on drugs', so they are certainly attempting to prosecute those who use or sell drugs. However, they don't invade, say, Columbia, because the country is itself actively hunting down drug traders. So any comparison with the Taliban is quite ludicrous, because:
1. There is no politics involved (i.e. a declaration of war)
2. The country in question is already attempting to eradicate the problem

hmmm this country/ army?
^o)

Colombia military in bomb scandal
By Jeremy McDermott
BBC News, Medellin

Evidence suggests the military are contributing to the violence
Army officers in Colombia have been accused of placing car bombs around the capital in the latest military scandal to hit the country.

The officers hoped to claim reward money from the government's informants programme for discovering the bombs.

President Alvaro Uribe made a televised address to the nation urging Colombians to keep faith in the security forces, amid a growing crisis in confidence.

He has made the strengthening of the military his government's cornerstone.

Such is the crisis in confidence in the military that President Uribe decided that he had to show his face to the nation and reassure Colombians that his military, backed by Washington, was not spinning out of control.

'Isolated incidents'

In the latest scandal, army officers are accused of placing car bombs around Bogota, including one that went off wounding more than a dozen soldiers and killing a civilian.

The motivation was to claim reward money from the government, which offers payments of up to $400,000 (£220,000) for information on the activities of Marxist rebels and drugs traffickers.

In another incident, 10 policemen were killed by the army in what was presented as a friendly fire tragedy.

However, evidence has shown that they were killed at point-blank range.

Several soldiers, including a colonel, have been arrested and accused of murdering the policemen on the orders of a notorious drug baron.

Mr Uribe insisted that these scandals are isolated incidents and that things are getting better.

But evidence now suggests that the military are contributing to the violence, not just fighting it.