Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[Independent]

it would be no different from any burglar/killer wearing a ski mask

As a form of disguise, wearing a ski mask in central London leaves a lot to be desired. Use your brain!

This is just a sick excuse to target and further alienate Muslims and then based on that faulty premise speak of how they can't integrate into society!

By his actions, Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed has already damaged the idea that there is no security risk to concealing garments. It is him you should condemn because it's Muslim women in general who will suffer.

 

[جوري]

As a form of disguise, wearing a ski mask in central London leaves a lot to be desired. Use your brain!

Is it illegal? I don't want to waste my time over your feelings or emotions. I want to know if the govt. legislates whether or not presumably psychotic white males and as I have shown above are the number one culprit for most violent attacks are kept from dressing as they desire and what studies were made to link their outfits to the crimes they commit~ You're the last person to speak about using brains and you should really quit taking my statements and using it on me as if you'd an original and independent thought looming in your head!

By his actions, Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed has already damaged the idea that there is no security risk to concealing garments. It is him you should condemn because it's Muslim women in general who will suffer.

As I stated and I so hate to repeat myself on the account that all things written simply bounce over the idea you already have formed in your mind. laws aren't amended based on the exception and if they're then everyone can clearly see in this particular case that this is a system of bigotry, xenophobia and frank outward hatred of Islam- A system that professes 'freedoms' that it obviously doesn't possess in fact one that is completely antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom which by definition should denote readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values.

 

[greenhill]

Salaam,

The contradiction they have to overcome is that the Qur’an itself was preserved by the memories of the Prophet’s companions and their oral tradition. Thus if one accepts the Qur’an as being preserved through the memories of these most trustworthy of human beings then how can one choose to ignore the weight of their testimony in other matters relating to the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Never thought about it that way.... Thank you for the simple logic that should make those who deny the sunnah think a little bit more.

Many of my students know that I do not consider it obligatory. I see them join my classes without the niqab, soon after, they start wearing the niqab. I don’t even know why they did it. Ultimately, it’s their choice and none of my business. But it is a religious choice and not a cultural one, which means a woman makes the choice to adopt an Islamic teaching in the hope of being rewarded by Allah (SWT). This is the essence of any religious practice.

I see why it is a religious choice as opposed to cultural (although it 'may' have begun as cultural).

Perhaps a glaring omission in all the commentaries written is the viewpoint of women who veil their faces. Let’s hope, should a national debate be sparked on the issue, that their voices, so absent in the media, are granted the public space to challenge perceptions of their subjugation, oppression, stunted careers etc…

If I can pin point on why niqab is viewed in such light, could be summed up by -

Having read all of the above, I think there are only two valid reasons to be weary of face veils: Security and Identity.

It would be similar to walking around and seeing people in balaclavas. Due to the association of using masks to hide identity, it makes people nervous and makes the paranoid react unreasonably. Incessant complains and expression has garnered attention which has triggered negative awareness as a result of these paranoid comments.

Personally, I feel, these people are living other people's fears. Let the security people figure away to ensure safety, a system can be put in place that can accommodate such things. We are such an advanced society. I refuse to believe that with all the equipment we have, we cannot get through a simple veil over a face.^o)

If I am to be honest, it does not appeal to me. And in a way, it is good because the person wearing it holds no interest to me except to question why she is wearing it? Whereas girls who do not allows me to stare and .....

:embarrass

Peace

 

[Independent]

Is it illegal?

No, wearing a ski mask is not illegal and neither is the niqab/burqa. But unlike the niquab/burqa, a ski mask is of no value as a form of disguise outside of a ski resort. A ski mask in central London is so far from a disguise, it would ensure everybody looked at you. Frankly it's a stupid comparison and I wonder why you persist with it.

This man Mohammad has set a dangerous precedent which, if others follow, will obviously undermine the argument that the niqab/burqa does not represent a security risk. It's got nothing to do with whether the person is a Muslim or not (although Mohammad is).

 

[جوري]

No, wearing a ski mask is not illegal

Ok great that is all I wanted to read. Until that is made illegal by a governmental mandate can we have this dialogue. I am not interested in where it is donned otherwise it is irrelevant!
Most criminals disguise their identity not sure why you persist on ignoring that fact- sales of any covers including neck gaiters which many wear during winter months should also be made illegal by your brand of logic!

btw is anyone confused about the genders of those heavily clad dudes? Maybe in a society of homosexuals it is difficult for some to tell a woman from a man!

 

[ardianto]

Last year in Indonesia. 23 'women' with niqab visited Jakarta police headquarter to meet few terrorists that detained there. The guards did not see their faces. But their mistake was they did not realize that those niqabi have been 24 when they left detention center. Rocky, one terrorist that detained there escaped with wearing niqab.

Indonesian national Intelligence also report that niqab often be used by terrorists when they move from one place to another place.

But we don't think to ban niqab in public place. We don't blame the niqab, we blame the terrorist that use niqab for the wrong things.

 

[جوري]

I find that story a little hard to believe. Firstly people who go to visit 'terrorists' it is done under very strict guidelines as they're supposedly the most dangerous criminals, their meetings are supervised and the things they bring to jail are checked in and out. So called Islamic countries like Egypt are simply simpatico with western agenda to malign Muslims and ruin society from within, thus I am not surprised that the story is courtesy of your 'Indonesian National Intelligence' and what sort of intelligence is it, if a woman goes in and comes out a man?

sob7an Allah.. I am surprised by the things written by Muslims!

 

[ardianto]

Rocky has been arrested again. Guards in Indonesian prison and detention center are not as good as in other countries. Prisoner escape is common stories.

Yes, I am Muslim and I have big sympathy to the innocent niqabi who become victims of other people action.

In the past I've heard positive comment about women who wore niqab from my mother, female cousins, and other women who ever meet niqabi women.

But now?. I heard complain from some niqabi women because people look at them with suspicion. It's happen after the emergence of radical group which explode bombs and cause fear among peope. The worse is, all women in the group wear niqab!.

 

[جوري]

prisoner escaping being a common story in Indonesia is then a problem with prison guards and the way the system is run in Indonesia and that is what should make the news not the fact that 20+ niqabis went in and one prisoner got out. Seems like women are an easy scape goat and those who are the most fragile (attacked east and west, family & strangers alike) are the most targeted.
Like the logic or lack thereof of that other guy. Completely ignores the massive postal attacks by single white males and focuses with all his bravado on the one story where a criminal donned a niqab!

 

[Independent]

I find that story a little hard to believe

Your difficulty in facing up to reality in general has been a feature of this forum for some time.

The fact is that this man did escape in disguise under a burqa. It's a waste of everybody's time to keep saying it couldn't happen, because it just did. Please stop wasting space with irrelevant pictures that demonstrate nothing. IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED.

A disguise which draws attention to the wearer is no use as a disguise. So stop wasting time with irrelevant comparisons.

The problem you should be focusing on is the behaviour of this man, himself a Muslim, who therefore should know better than to bring more difficulties on the lives of Muslim women in the west.

it's pointless to argue there are no security implications when a man with suspected links to Al Shabab has used the burqa in this way. If people are killed as a result of a similar incident, it is obviously going to cause immense difficulties.

Let's hope that no other Muslim, at least, will abuse the privilege of the burqa.

 

[Muhammad]

Can I request we do not turn this into another argument! By all means present your views but please try to do so without insulting the other person.

That's why Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed is to be condemned, because by his actions he has placed at risk the freedom of Muslim women in general in the west to wear religious clothing.

I agree that, whatever the intentions behind them, such actions have placed at risk the freedom of Muslim women, especially at a time when it is in the spotlight. There is already growing pressure and suspicion on Muslim women even without these incidents. But it is rather strange that a 'ban' seems to be on the tip of everyone's tongue regarding this topic, as if no other option is conceivable or worth trying. It sounds almost as if people have already decided in their own minds what the outcome should be, and finding the excuses to justify it.

I thought these points were important to note:

The law doesn't change based on the exception

But we don't think to ban niqab in public place. We don't blame the niqab, we blame the terrorist that use niqab for the wrong things.

I also came across this quote from Salma Yaqoob, formerly a Birmingham city councillor, from an article in the Guardian:

"The women who do wear the face veils are a tiny minority within a minority, so the thought that they're any kind of threat to British society as a whole is beyond laughable. But at the same time, [these debates] do, of course, increase the vulnerability of Muslim women as a whole. Time and again, verbal and physical attacks on Muslim women increase when we have these so-called national debates. In emotional and psychological terms, I think it does a huge amount of damage."

​

Women who wear the veil "are trying to observe what they feel are their religious convictions", she says, "but are made to feel that they are somehow imposing on the whole of society and that they are the biggest problem. And, of course, that isn't conducive to integration, belonging and a positive atmosphere. It doesn't foster cohesion, I think it does the very opposite, and ironically it actually stifles healthy discussion and debate."
​

 

[Muhammad]

Salaam,

I see why it is a religious choice as opposed to cultural (although it 'may' have begun as cultural).

:wasalamex

Why do you say it 'may' have begun as cultural?

It would be similar to walking around and seeing people in balaclavas. Due to the association of using masks to hide identity, it makes people nervous and makes the paranoid react unreasonably. Incessant complains and expression has garnered attention which has triggered negative awareness as a result of these paranoid comments.

I disagree with the comparison to balaclavas. Balaclavas are typically worn for criminal activity and little else. But the Niqab is worn for a particular (religious) reason and not associated with criminals. Yes, it has garnered negative attention due to negative portrayal, but it's still not the same as balaclavas. Not all concealing clothing creates paranoia - the example of nuns was mentioned in the other thread.

Personally, I feel, these people are living other people's fears. Let the security people figure away to ensure safety, a system can be put in place that can accommodate such things. We are such an advanced society. I refuse to believe that with all the equipment we have, we cannot get through a simple veil over a face.^o)

I agree.

If I am to be honest, it does not appeal to me. And in a way, it is good because the person wearing it holds no interest to me except to question why she is wearing it?

I didn't follow here. We as Muslims must respect the Niqab as it is at the very least a recommended action in our religion. We should understand why Muslim women are wearing it and support them too.

 

[جوري]

"The women who do wear the face veils are a tiny minority within a minority

Indeed, I see such folks as focusing on an ant whilst ignoring the elephant in the room and I have no other explanation for that save frank bigotry, Islamophobia and the marginalizing of a minority so that all they accuse them of especially lack of integration becomes nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy!

 

[Independent]

But it is rather strange that a 'ban' seems to be on the tip of everyone's tongue regarding this topic, as if no other option is conceivable or worth trying. It sounds almost as if people have already decided in their own minds what the outcome should be, and finding the excuses to justify it.

I agree with most of what you say, however...

The worst possible outcome is that an Amanda Lethwaite type figure takes a bomb onto the Underground and creates a terror spectacular. if that happens, I don't see how any government could stand against the clamour for action, which would surely involve some degree of restriction if not an outright ban.

Therefore, the greatest danger to Muslim women's freedom comes from the potential actions of other Muslims like Mohammed Ahmed Mohammed. Otherwise, no matter what you may read in the media, the UK is not even close to imposing any kind of ban and i can't see how it would come about. The tabloid press operate in a state of perpetual hysteria. They'll be bored of it by next week. It's a strange thing to have to say in this forum - but don't believe everything you read in the media.

The women who do wear the face veils are a tiny minority within a minority, so the thought that they're any kind of threat to British society as a whole is beyond laughable

It doesn't even have to be a Muslim, or a woman, that takes advantage of these garments. It's the concealment that matters - not the religion, the sex, or the ethnicity.

To give a slightly bizarre comparison - during the IRA attacks on London, litter bins on the Underground were used to plant explosives because they provided a place of concealmen. In reaction, all litter bins were "banned" ie removed.

The fact that only a tiny minority of people (one in a million) ever used a bin to plant a bomb does not mean that removing them was either unreasonable, disproportionate or illogical.

 

[جوري]

It's the concealment that matters

As stated before criminals don't go on advertising their identity the garment has nothing to do with it! there's just one type of garment on your mind obviously if the law extends itself to Burkas then it should extend itself to any form of concealment, whether in OR's in the winter months, to cancer patients etc. and let's see how well that fares at large!

 

[Pygoscelis]

As stated before criminals don't go on advertising their identity the garment has nothing to do with it! there's just one type of garment on your mind obviously if the law extends itself to Burkas then it should extend itself to any form of concealment, whether in OR's in the winter months, to cancer patients etc. and let's see how well that fares at large!

I agree with this. We should not single out a particular garment. The ban, if there is to be one, should be on the act of concealing your identity by wearing a mask, regardless of what sort of mask. And if we would allow people to walk about in a particular area wearing other face and body coverings, I see no reason not to let them do so in a burqa. And if we are talking about in banks or airports or for driver's photos, etc, where its important not to let people hide their identities, no special ban or exception should be made for religion.

 

[جوري]

I agree with this. We should not single out a particular garment. The ban, if there is to be one, should be on the act of concealing your identity by wearing a mask, regardless of what sort of mask. And if we would allow people to walk about in a particular area wearing other face and body coverings, I see no reason not to let them do so in a burqa. And if we are talking about in banks or airports or for driver's photos, etc, where its important not to let people hide their identities, no special ban or exception should be made for religion.

You won't have good luck with that when you're no longer talking about a minority within a minority by a majority of people who by profession or for medical reasons or personal reasons need to sport that kind of garment. If you're going to a bank with a ski mask it seems a little odd but should you be asked to reveal your identity to a guard of your gender then you're obliged to do so. Given that societies at large are composed of folks who follow one brand of religion or another, no special accommodations should be given to liberals and the amoral to appease their anxiety that's what psychiatrists and anxiolytics are for!

 

[Independent]

As stated before criminals don't go on advertising their identity the garment has nothing to do with it

And as i have stated before, it's any form of concealment that provides the opportunity to carry/plant munitions that matters, whether clothing based or otherwise.

The ban, if there is to be one, should be on the act of concealing your identity by wearing a mask, regardless of what sort of mask

I wondered about that too, although it wouldn't be easy to draw up such open ended legislation. It would absurd to ban ski masks in a ski resort, or diving masks in a diving school. But motorcycle helmets are banned for security reasons by many organisations (although this is not prescribed in law, it's their own initiative on their own premises.) There are also restrictions on wearing 'hoodies' in certain urban areas which is prescribed by local by law. But no one has complained that hoodie wearers have been singled out over, say, anorak wearers.

 

[جوري]

And as i have stated before, it's any form of concealment that provides the opportunity to carry/plant munitions that matters, whether clothing based or otherwise.

And as I have already stated & REPEATEDLY:

You won't have good luck with that when you're no longer talking about a minority within a minority by a majority of people who by profession or for medical reasons or personal reasons need to sport that kind of garment. If you're going to a bank with a ski mask it seems a little odd but should you be asked to reveal your identity to a guard of your gender then you're obliged to do so. Given that societies at large are composed of folks who follow one brand of religion or another, no special accommodations should be given to liberals and the amoral to appease their anxiety that's what psychiatrists and anxiolytics are for!

 

[Independent]

You won't have good luck with that when you're no longer talking about a minority within a minority by a majority of people who by profession or for medical reasons or personal reasons need to sport that kind of garment. If you're going to a bank with a ski mask it seems a little odd but should you be asked to reveal your identity to a guard of your gender then you're obliged to do so.

No ban would be so clumsily constructed as to ban doctors from wearing masks in hospital, for instance. Any security based ban is likely to focus on areas of public access, especially transport.

As I've said before, I'm very much opposed to a ban myself because I think the risk is too small in relation to the infringement on personal freedom. But if a terrorist were to imitate Mohammed and exploit the privilege of the veil, then the balance of that equation would change.