Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[Berries'forest]

^ Agreed, and I'm not advocating to cherry-pick what works and doesn't work for someone's interest. I just think that there's much more to belief in Allah than controversies. Anyway, I hope no harm's done.

 

[جوري]

أَفَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى عِلْمٍ وَخَتَمَ عَلَى سَمْعِهِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَجَعَلَ عَلَى بَصَرِهِ غِشَاوَةً فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ اللَّهِ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ}

45:23

If you find you're receiving your high kudos from non-Muslims in a matter that has to do with an act of worship then know that you're in the wrong!
I think many of us here have admitted that we don't meet with the bare minimum of the suggested Islamic garb for this to be a matter of 'self righteousness' - It is a matter of not making life more difficult to those who have already taken a very hard path that so few tread and making the dress a matter legislated by government.
Not seeing what you're talking about especially so when you turn the table and do the exact same thing you accuse others of which is shake your finger at what you think is objective or non-objective and then pretend to speak for God especially when al'amr belma3roof and nahy 3an almonkar is an integral part of this religion. Religion is advise, it is forbidding what is bad and driving what it good and the rest is up to the individual!

best,

 

[Muhammad]

We've come quite far from the original topic of this thread, which was exploring and responding to arguments made against the Niqab in light of recent debates/news. We seem to have got caught up with the issue of who is disrespecting whom. I think that the latter discussion has been more about the degradation of society in general than an attempt to deride westerners as has been suggested (and hence accusations of hypocrisy made). In any case, I don't think we are going to get much further and I think it's best we brace ourselves for an inevitable thread closure very soon.

Some comments were made about non-Muslims participating in discussions like these. Whilst I agree with some of the sentiments expressed, at the same time we need to bear some things in mind. On issues pertaining to Muslims living in the west, like the anti-niqab agenda, I think it's important that we engage with non-Muslims in various ways including forums like these, so that we can understand each other's issues and discuss how to deal with them. These are issues that have already become the subject of debate and attention in the real world, not something new introduced here. Such dialogue gives us a chance to clarify misconceptions (which for many non-Muslims is all they know from the media) and convey the truth. Whether we like it or not, we are having to step up and explain why exactly Muslim women wear the veil, because too many ill-informed people are speaking in the place of those who rightfully should. If we don't learn to express our views to others, we stand less of a chance to be understood and defend those views at the time it matters. This also means that we have to be wary of how we come across, because da'wah does involve using wisdom, patience and fair exhortation, as illustrated through the life of our beloved Prophet :saws:.

To the question about Muslims being in power, history speaks for itself regarding the way the rights of the various religious communities and denominations were upheld and protected under Muslim rule.

 

[~Zaria~]

The integral position that the niqaab holds in Islam is unanimous amongst all 4 madhabs (http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134314071-niqaab-integral-part-islam.html). (If there is any uncertainty in this regard, please contact your local imaam/ ulema to obtain further clarity, in shaa Allah.)

It is not up to us to imply that ANY act of worship is a personal choice, and to criticize those who are calling upon others towards the goodness that Islam has enjoined:

"And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful." (Quran 3:104)



If a sister decides to wear the hijab, or niqab......or even if she does nothing more than lengthen her sleeves when she goes out (as a means of covering herself up, for the pleasure of Allah), and on the same token, if a brother decides to grow a beard, or fold his pants......or ANY form of adopting the sunnah of the prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam) and the commands of Allah - then he/ she SHOULD be encouraged and there should be happiness all around from our brothers and sisters.

If we can not encourage others as muslims, towards what Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) has enjoined, then who will?

This has nothing to do with self-righteousness and it does not imply any type of judgement upon those who are not yet observing certain acts of worship.
(There has been no condemnation of any muslim, in this entire thread who does not observe niqaab.)

We ALL started out at some point in practice - nobody was born with a hijab/ niqab/ beard/ thawb, etc.
Our only intention should be, that we try to improve on our relationship with Allah - from whatever level we are on at this present point in time.

In the words of Mufti Menk:

There is no level that you can get to, and say that now I have arrived."

"If Allah has given you the ability to put a scarf on your head......dont ever remove it......and try to get to the next stage.
If Allah has given you the ability to wear a niqaab.....dont ever remove it......and try to get to the next stage."


^ This should be all of our personal goals.
Not that we criticize and condemn those who are striving in this regard.

(With regards to the apparently insulting nature of the terms 'half-dressed', etc - I would encourage any concerned member, to contact Mufti Menk and ask how a very respected scholar as himself, uses such descriptions in lectures, as has been posted.
If its not possible to speak about the ills that we see in society on an islamic forum or islamic talks (which are freely discussed on other forms of media by disbelievers themselves), then, subhanAllah - this is a sad state for ourselves as community).


:wa:

​

 

[Pygoscelis]

(With regards to the apparently insulting nature of the terms 'half-dressed', etc - I would encourage any concerned member, to contact Mufti Menk and ask how a very respected scholar as himself, uses such descriptions in lectures, as has been posted.
If its not possible to speak about the ills that we see in society on an islamic forum or islamic talks (which are freely discussed on other forms of media by disbelievers themselves), then, subhanAllah - this is a sad state for ourselves as community).

Nobody is seeking to censor what you say. They are merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your words. It is not consistent to demand tolerance while being intolerant. Your arguments condemning western dress (community norms, etc) work equally well against islamic dress, and so they undercut the fight against the ban mentioned in the OP.

 

[جوري]

Nobody is seeking to censor what you say. They are merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your words. It is not consistent to demand tolerance while being intolerant. Your arguments condemning western dress (community norms, etc) work equally well against islamic dress, and so they undercut the fight against the ban mentioned in the OP.

In what way is she a hypocrite? inconsistent or intolerant? Truly you've to elaborate on that.
firstly she's not a westerner she's from South Africa a country taken over by westerners where they are given priority and according to polls from the WHO South African native children were dying at a ratio of 5:1 blacks to whites because of negligence, apartheid and frank bigotry.
What would you like her to do exactly? go up to every scantily clad woman and applaud her?, seeking her approval or what exactly?
Truly you're an amusing bunch.
Quit the crap everyone sees through the transparency of this charade..
you know what when you break a vase saying 'I am sorry' won't put it back together. That's how empty and meaningless your rhetoric not to mention bizarre expectations which you're yet to define in face of govt. legislating what women should wear!

best,

 

[~Zaria~]

Nobody is seeking to censor what you say. They are merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your words. It is not consistent to demand tolerance while being intolerant. Your arguments condemning western dress (community norms, etc) work equally well against islamic dress, and so they undercut the fight against the ban mentioned in the OP.

Any 'arguments condemning western dress' stems not from 'intolerance' towards other people, but rather submission to the commands of Allah.

As mentioned previously: By supporting anything (not specific to clothing) that contradicts the laws of Allah, means that the person himself, is standing in defiance of Allah.

My loyalty, and that of muslims, lies with ALLAH.

What you have assessed to be 'Hypocrisy', is in fact an act of 'Sincerity' - not towards man, but towards Allah.

As mentioned previously, there is a difference between 'Respect' versus 'Support/ Acceptance'.

We 'respect' all of mankind - in the sense that despite our differences, we are kind and considerate to one another.
The reason being, is that it is not for us to judge others, as well as the fact that a persons current condition does not necessarily reflect his future condition.

But, despite this respect, we will not support or accept anything that goes against the will of Allah.

^ Which means that although we will be friendly and helpful to the person who is dressed in very little covering, or to an alcoholic, or a drug-abuser, etc......when asked about the permissibility/ our acceptance of such ways of life, the only possible answer for a sincere muslim is that which is reflected in Quraan and Sunnah.

If Allah and His prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) have commanded women to be dressed in a certain manner (with respect to any differences of scholarly opinion) - then this can be our only answer to the above.

Our frame of reference (the Quraan and Sunnah) is fixed. It cannot be bent to appease mankind.
We are in submission to the Creator, not His creation.

Peace

 

[observer]

Any 'arguments condemning western dress' stems not from 'intolerance' towards other people, but rather submission to the commands of Allah.

As mentioned previously: By supporting anything (not specific to clothing) that contradicts the laws of Allah, means that the person himself, is standing in defiance of Allah.

My loyalty, and that of muslims, lies with ALLAH.

What you have assessed to be 'Hypocrisy', is in fact an act of 'Sincerity' - not towards man, but towards Allah.

As mentioned previously, there is a difference between 'Respect' versus 'Support/ Acceptance'.

We 'respect' all of mankind - in the sense that despite our differences, we are kind and considerate to one another.
The reason being, is that it is not for us to judge others, as well as the fact that a persons current condition does not necessarily reflect his future condition.

But, despite this respect, we will not support or accept anything that goes against the will of Allah.

^ Which means that although we will be friendly and helpful to the person who is dressed in very little covering, or to an alcoholic, or a drug-abuser, etc......when asked about the permissibility/ our acceptance of such ways of life, the only possible answer for a sincere muslim is that which is reflected in Quraan and Sunnah.

If Allah and His prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) have commanded women to be dressed in a certain manner (with respect to any differences of scholarly opinion) - then this can be our only answer to the above.

Our frame of reference (the Quraan and Sunnah) is fixed. It cannot be bent to appease mankind.
We are in submission to the Creator, not His creation.

Peace

But nobody is saying you should support anything you don't agree with. All that is being asked is that you extend the same level of respect to those who do not dress like you as you would like extended in return. Nothing more.

Noone is saying islam needs to change. Just that the respect demanded by islam should be returned by islam. That the right of the woman in the niqab not to be insulted is the same as the right of the woman in western clothing not to be insulted. Nothing more.

Of course you disagree with western dress - that's fine. Just respect their choices as you wish your choices to be respected. I don't see how that can be difficult.

You don't have to go against your religion, but you do need to accept that not everyone is of your religion and therefore is not under orders to follow its rules.

 

[~Zaria~]

^ the issue of 'respectful' terminology has already been discussed at length.
Please keep on topic.

As well as refer back to what is actually being expected of muslims according to the previous posts.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Anybody remember this from a decade ago in Saudi Arabia? Apparently the religious police forced school children to stay in a burning building and burn to death because they were not properly "fully dressed" in religious coverings. I wonder if things have improved there since. This may be what people who are for a ban are afraid of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rls-die-as-zealots-drive-them-into-blaze.html

 

[faithandpeace]

To my knowledge safety overrides these basic religious practices. Therefore, in the event of a fire it would not make sense for women to not evacuate because they were not veiled. It is also important to bear in mind that while the KSA may claim to be an Islamic state or that many of its laws are based on sharia, many Muslims argue that it is not a true Islamic state and that many of the KSA's rulings and practices are outside of sharia and established fiqh.

But back to the topic, niqab is wonderful and at minimum wearing it is mustahabb, but it should not override safety or saving a life. If a sister accepts the scholarly opinion that niqab is fard and for whatever reason goes without it, she can always ask Allah (swt) for forgiveness afterwards and return to wearing the niqab where required.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Question: Is there a rule in Islam that the niqab should be particular colours? We often see it in black. Why is that? Perhaps wearing a white or blue or other coloured one could help. A lot of cultures these muslimas are entering hold black as a colour symbolizing bad and white good (like cowboy hats, etc).

 

[جوري]

you mean like this?

I'd say that's their individual choice.. or does there always have to be something condescending to say about their choice?

 

[Pygoscelis]

you mean like this?

Yes, exactly like that. Is that held equal within Islam to the woman who wears all black?

 

[جوري]

I believe I have already answered that with 'It is their individual choice'!
most New Yorkers wear black all the time, there are no laws here against colors either, just a personal preference of people!

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

Question: Is there a rule in Islam that the niqab should be particular colours? We often see it in black. Why is that? Perhaps wearing a white or blue or other coloured one could help. A lot of cultures these muslimas are entering hold black as a colour symbolizing bad and white good (like cowboy hats, etc).

The following refers to Hijab for women in general:

...Wearing black for women is not a must. They may wear other colours that are worn only by women, do not attract attention and do not provoke desire.

Many women choose to wear black, not because it is obligatory, but because it is farthest removed from being an adornment. There are reports which indicate that the women of the Sahaabah used to wear black. Abu Dawood (4101) narrated that Umm Salamah said: “When the words ‘and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)’ [al-Noor 24:31 – interpretation of the meaning] were revealed, the women of the Ansaar went out looking as if there were crows on their heads because of their garments.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

The Standing Committee (17/110) said: This is to be understood as meaning that those clothes were black in colour.

And Allaah knows best.

Full answer: http://www.islamqa.com/en/39570

There is no particular colour that is observed in the Hijab of a woman but there are many other conditions that should be fulfilled. One of those conditions is that the Hijab must not be worn as a display so that it motivates seduction.
It should cover the woman’s whole body...

http://islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=87398

 

[Muhammad]

Anybody remember this from a decade ago in Saudi Arabia? Apparently the religious police forced school children to stay in a burning building and burn to death because they were not properly "fully dressed" in religious coverings. I wonder if things have improved there since. This may be what people who are for a ban are afraid of.

I've deleted the off-topic discussion about the veracity of the Saudi incident. Regardless of whether it is true or false, it has no bearing on this discussion. It is known that one of the aims of Islamic law is to preserve life and this takes precedence over the goal of avoiding forbidden acts. The famous example is of a person starving to death and the only food available to him is pork. In such a case, eating to stay alive takes precedence over avoiding pork. Moreover, Allaah :swt: does not impose actions which His servants are unable to do. He removes the responsibility of performing many actions simply because of the difficulty involved, as a concession and mercy to us. There are many examples of this, such as breaking one's fast or not praying while standing due to illness.

Let the rich man spend according to his means; and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what Allah has given him. Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. Allah will grant after hardship, ease. [al-Talaaq 65:7]

So keep your duty to Allah and fear Him as much as you can; listen and obey, and spend in charity; that is better for yourselves. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, then they are the successful ones. [al-Taghaabun 64:16]

The Prophet :saws: said, 'What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you [to do], do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets.' [Recorded by Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

As already mentioned, incidents in Saudi Arabia are not the basis of Islam, rather it is the teachings of Allaah :swt: and His Messenger Muhammad :saws:.

It seems we have exhausted this discussion so to prevent any further off-topic posting I will close the thread.