State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron

[GuestFellow]

Not really, we haven't faced much islamophobia until recently when people like anjem choudary said its ok to kill british civilians on tv. The EDL would not exist if it wasn't for al muhajiroon and their ilk.

I agree. Anjem Choudary and some other Muslims have made things worse. From this perspective, I understand why some British people are angry.

 

[LauraS]

Sikhs and Hindus seemed to have fully integrated into society but it does seem that the same hasn't happened with the Muslim communities. There are certain towns in the UK where the majority of the population appears to be Muslim. It shouldn't be about Muslims losing their culture just about Muslims and everyone else in the UK mixing more. There aren't many Muslims around where I live but I had a Muslim friend at school and I know of another Muslims girl in the school. They got on with everybody and there was no tension because they were Muslims are anything. In fact everyone got on well regardless of culture or religion.

 

[GuestFellow]

Sikhs and Hindus seemed to have fully integrated into society but it does seem that the same hasn't happened with the Muslim communities.

So how should Muslims fully integrate? It would be helpful if someone can explain this in detail.

 

[LauraS]

So how should Muslims fully integrate? It would be helpful if someone can explain this in detail.

Well I don't know, I don't know the thoughts and feelings of the Muslim community. All I can say is what I observe and obviously what others have. You get Sikh and Hindu families living amongst everyone else but there just seems to be streets or even towns where it's purely Muslim people. :hmm: It's just what seems to have happened, there may be areas where there are plenty of Muslims and other groups living together.

 

[GuestFellow]

Well I don't know, I don't know the thoughts and feelings of the Muslim community.

Neither do I...everyone has different needs, wants and aspirations. o_o

All I can say is what I observe and obviously what others have. You get Sikh and Hindu families living amongst everyone else but there just seems to be streets or even towns where it's purely Muslim people. :hmm: It's just what seems to have happened, there may be areas where there are plenty of Muslims and other groups living together.

Well...I'm not sure how this is a problem.

From what I know, my area used to be a predominantly white working class area. As time went by, people moved out while Asians moved in. Now, mostly Asian people live here, the majority are Muslims.

 

[aadil77]

Well I don't know, I don't know the thoughts and feelings of the Muslim community. All I can say is what I observe and obviously what others have. You get Sikh and Hindu families living amongst everyone else but there just seems to be streets or even towns where it's purely Muslim people. :hmm: It's just what seems to have happened, there may be areas where there are plenty of Muslims and other groups living together.

This is the issue I'm talking about. I agree sikhs, hindu's, blacks and other ethnic minorites have integrated pretty well, its cause its alot easier for them to 'fit' in, all they have to do is go down the pub or go clubbing and they're sorted. For us its a bit different, we have to be careful of not compromising our beliefs. Obviously theres are alot of other alternatives to going drinking or raving, end of the day its up to us to make an effort.

 

[GuestFellow]

^ I know Blackpool ( IB member) got along with Muslims after playing football with them. o_o

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

He can start by removing EDL, as long as there around, so are extremists. Simple as that, because I don't remember any "Muslim" terrorists harming countries like Africa, Japan or whoever didn't bother to invade Iraq/Afghanistan etc.

 

[Perseveranze]

This is the issue I'm talking about. I agree sikhs, hindu's, blacks and other ethnic minorites have integrated pretty well, its cause its alot easier for them to 'fit' in, all they have to do is go down the pub or go clubbing and they're sorted. For us its a bit different, we have to be careful of not compromising our beliefs. Obviously theres are alot of other alternatives to going drinking or raving, end of the day its up to us to make an effort.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

You hit the nail. The Prophet said;

This verse speaks of the few people on earth, the "strangers", who prohibit mankind from evil. These are the same people the Prophet (peace be upon him) spoke about when he said, "Islam began as something strange, and it shall return to being something strange, so give glad tidings [ar. Tooba. This is a tree in Paradise. So the Prophet (peace be upon him) is giving the good news of Paradise to these strangers.] to the strangers." It was asked, "Who are those strangers, O Messenger of Allah?" He replied, "Those that correct the people when they become corrupt." [Reported by Abu Amr al-Dani, from the hadith of ibn Masoud. It is authentic according to al-Albani. Another narration says, "Those that correct my sunnah which has been corrupted by the people after me."] In another narration he said in response to the same question, "They are a small group of people among a large evil population. Those who oppose them are more than those who follow them." [Reported by ibn Asaakir. It is authentic according to al-Albani.]

Muslims are too strange to fit in

 

[aadil77]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

You hit the nail. The Prophet said;

This is true akhi, but its not just about fitting in, its about having good relations with non-muslims. Look at the example of the prophet, he didn't spread islam by keeping his head down, not greeting others, not caring for others and keeping to himself, did he? He got along well with everyone which is why everyone loved him for his qualities.

Muslims are too strange to fit in

I disagree, plenty of muslims I know fit in without compromising deen at all

 

[Perseveranze]

This is true akhi, but its not just about fitting in, its about having good relations with non-muslims. Look at the example of the prophet, he didn't spread islam by keeping his head down, not greeting others, not caring for others and keeping to himself, did he? He got along well with everyone which is why everyone loved him for his qualities.



I disagree, plenty of muslims I know fit in without compromising deen at all

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Think you misundestood. I meant strangers in terms of we couldn't fit into certain society that had the norm of drinking alcohol, late parties, smoking etc. Sure, we can get along with them and live in peace, but fitting in is a different story unless we had to comprimise our deen.

 

[David Gould]

David Cameron in singling out one group and ignoring the EDL and other extremists groups that cause divisions in society and has set back relations between Islamic Groups and non-Muslims by about twelve years. He failed to acknowledge that it was the invasions by Blair's Government that drove many Muslims to feel isolated and alienated and a small number to become radicalised. He has confused the issue here by introducing this term "state Multiculturalism" which means nothing and hence trying to claim all attempts at pluralism, that is working in many areas, are encouraging extremism. How wrong can one man, poorly advised and misinformed be? I am a Christian member of Interfaith groups where I work closely and very happily with my Muslim friends. They condemn the bombings that took my daughter's life in 2005...and they are sensitive toward my seeking to bring the faiths closer together and develop dialogue.

David Cameron is totally ignorant of the many groups that meet up and down the country that are working at community level to improve relations between of faith groups. Understanding each other's believes and acting with trust, understanding and sensitivity are key things to building relationships of respect. I am honoured to number among my friends several Muslims and I value their input into both our groups and into the community at large. I am not prepared for some millionaire clod-hopping ignoramus to come and destroy what has taken us years to patiently build.

Unlike David Cameron I have read the Qur'an and love the simple message of peace it brings to mankind from God. As a Christian there are areas where we differ...but through both faith's God calls His people...US to his service, to honour each other, and to respect each other..."dispute not with the people of the book..." and all that. I have favourite passages from the Qur'an as I do in the Bible. I find much fault in the Bible which has been tampered with over the years. The message has never changed. god calls His people to repent and lead a life within His ways...what is not to understand in that?

I will continue to love my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, share friendship, spiritual insights and God's Love. I will continue to organise joint events where we can explore at greater depth each other's faith. And above all I will follow what I believe God has called me to do...to be His slave and do His bidding...

 

[جوري]

I will continue to love my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, share friendship, spiritual insights and God's Love. I will continue to organise joint events where we can explore at greater depth each other's faith. And above all I will follow what I believe God has called me to do...to be His slave and do His bidding...

Thank you like Eric H.. I find you to put some of my disenchantment with Christians of the west to rest..

peace

 

[Zafran]

Not really, we haven't faced much islamophobia until recently when people like anjem choudary said its ok to kill british civilians on tv. The EDL would not exist if it wasn't for al muhajiroon and their ilk.

I believe the Islamophobia started around about 9/11, The taleban media stories, then 2004 bombings and ofcourse Al Mhhajiroon make things worse - The problem also is that Anjem Choudery and his ilk attract the media far more then the religious muslims do.

We can't continue to alienate ourselves from society, its bad dawah and gives muslims a bad image.

I agree we need to come to a common ground.

I also agree we need to sort our own problems out but its bad for the UK government if they still cant start with basics in tackling extremism - foriegn policy.

 

[Zafran]

Sikhs and Hindus seemed to have fully integrated into society but it does seem that the same hasn't happened with the Muslim communities. There are certain towns in the UK where the majority of the population appears to be Muslim. It shouldn't be about Muslims losing their culture just about Muslims and everyone else in the UK mixing more. There aren't many Muslims around where I live but I had a Muslim friend at school and I know of another Muslims girl in the school. They got on with everybody and there was no tension because they were Muslims are anything. In fact everyone got on well regardless of culture or religion.

Are you sure? Lets see the Black africans Have the majority realy integrated or do we still have black african Ghettos?
What about the white working class who actually join the EDL and the BNP? there are areas where (never mind Muslim) but anyone asian looking will have problems living in there area?
Then we have asians and there Ghettos?

The UK is full of people that havent integrated its simple - the muslims however should get out of there Ghettos I believe - I'm actually against the Ghetto culture.

 

[Woodrow]

Peace David it is indeed a pleasure to see you again. Your compassion for all people has always been a refreshing sight to behold.

 

[CosmicPathos]

So muscular it is playing at your nearest gay club!

lol. I think he has a thing for muscular things.

 

[David Gould]

That Speech (an article by David Gould)

So where to we start with that dog’s breakfast of misinformation that was the British Prime Minister’s speech in Munich on 12th February.

Let us begin with the whole notion of the blame being put on something he called “State Multiculturalism” whatever this might be. No serious social thinker has used this term beyond the nineties which rather dates any reading Cameron has done. If his reading had been up to date he would have known that social thinkers have adopted the term “Pluralism” which embodies the ideas of social and community integration and inclusion rather than the previous somewhat patronising terms of toleration. The whole notion of ‘tolerance’ which underpinned the theories of Multiculturalism as a school of thought, implies that a superior being has to find it in his or her heart to tolerate something or someone who could well be inferior. One can see why such thinking was abandoned in the late nineties for a more accurate term to explain the social change that has taken place.

Also before we leave this quaint phrase of “State Multiculturalism” let us try to make sense of why it is in some way to blame for the radicalisation and growth of urban extremism in the last ten years. For this is Cameron’s claim that the passive tolerance has allowed this to take place. Again we have this harking back to outdated outmoded thinking that the likes of Tariq Modood et al would want to see in terms of the ghetto-isation cultural groupings and the growth of alienations within subcultures rather that the overall explanation of how society is organised. The crisis of multiculturalism which was addressed by many thinkers in the early 2000s where increasingly single groupings of people were isolated from the mainstream service deliveries within communities led to the whole notion being rethought and reformed.

Any serious student of social change when studying the rise of urban radicalisation within Britain would not be looking at the passive acceptance of liberals as the start point. Rather they would be looking at the fact that following 9/11 and the attacks on an increasingly imperialistic American Expansionism in the acquisition of scarcer fossil fuels, the US and by default the UK invaded not one but two countries that were seen as majority Muslim with no clear end plan of their invasions and occupations. In the face of these invasions which some commentators saw as having been perpetrated on the basis of falsehoods and increasingly seen as a direct attack upon Islam itself a growing anger grew till it boiled over. From all the records left behind by the four bombers of the London Transport system of July 7th 2005 it is clear that they saw the invasion of Iraq as the catalyst of their actions rather than the liberal views of “State Multiculturalism”.

We move on one sentence in that speech to the unnamed groups that Cameron blames for not having condemned terrorist extremism while being supported by financial grants that originated from government sponsorship. Again I would strongly question the evidence here about the use of government money to sponsor organisations that encouraged radicalisation. As Cameron was not specific it is hard to see his point other than like the empty promises of the rules of the game changing, made by the former Prime Minister Blair, being a rather vague threat to one religious group that he seems to blame all our woes upon. By engaging with his own polemic Cameron tries to wield the big stick or threat of cutting the funding. The flaw here being that the biggest source of third sector local funding was the very local authority budgets that he has already cut. Hence his threat rings hollow and seems more like a veiled threat against one particular plank of his so called Big Society, namely the Islamic Community in Britain.

Perhaps we also need to look further back at the effect of the rising figures of immigration over the years since the 1960s and how the alienation was caused. It is of interest also in passing to look at the words of the French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, is his address to the French legislature when he was defending the ban of ostensibly religious symbols in public schools. He refers to both France as the ‘old land of Christianity’ and to the inviolable principle of laïcité or secularism. Whereas most of the main partners in Europe have the separation of church and state as the accepted norms it came as a shock to many of those coming to the country that this should be so. This would seem doubly so if one has come from an Islamic country where religion and politics are almost interchangeable. The sense of disengagement that many feel when they experience the way of life in the west is most acute as though being thrown into space without a life support system. It was this sense of being lost within a secular system that Prime Minister Blair first promised to address in pre-election speeches and then supremely ignored once in power.

The mistake that Cameron is making is to threaten the very groups that attempt to address with a form of fiscal xenophobia that is breath-taking. By singling out one group or the adherents of just one faith and blaming all the cultural woes on the system of law that their faith espouses is to ignore the fact that arranged marriages are a cultural norm for a part of the world that includes Hindus, Christians as well as Muslims. He may dislike the system and want to discourage it but to blame it on one group when so many practice this is to be pointedly disproportionate and politically naïve. He might have also lobbed in the practice of honour killings while he was at it…again not the sole preserve of the Islamic community; having wider cultural and patriarchal roots.

The other attack that is implicit within these somewhat poorly chosen words is the attack on what the public perceive of as the meaning of Multiculturalism. Public perception always lags behind the academics in this respect so the word Multicultural is still perceived as a gaol or target. Frequently linked with the words equality and diversity the prime Minister seems to attack anyone who dares to stay outside his limited view of what it means to be British. For a start he expects every person to speak English totally ignoring the fact the wider families frequently involve older persons for whom the learning of a new language is prohibitively difficult. He expects everyone to learn about the history of the land. He forgets that most of the people coming to this country have come to escape grinding poverty and feel they must work every minute of every day to support sometimes large family groups. Then a large proportion of their wages goes back ‘home’ to help support those left behind so leisure time is not something most immigrants can afford in the early days of their lives here. I have known many indigenous white kids on leaving school having little or no knowledge of the history of the UK and a small proportion at as illiterate and as innumerate as the day they started school.

So while Cameron tries hard to create a legacy in Munich his speech has caused ripples of disapproval and anger in many areas of the country. He may well find in the days to come that his words rob him of the good will of the very people upon whom he was relying to deliver his Big Society ideas.

Bibliography:
Secularism, Religion and Multicultural Citizenship (2009) Edited by G. Levey and T. Modood. Cambridge University Press
Multiculturalism (2007) Tariq Modood, Polity Press
The Quest for Meaning Developing a philosophy of Pluralism (2010) Tariq Ramadan, Penguin Books

 

[aamirsaab]

One of my neighbours is Hindu, the other is Jewish and my best friend is an atheist.

Multiculturalism has most certainly not failed. Common sense, on the other hand, has.

 

[GuestFellow]

lol. I think he has a thing for muscular things.

It is actually a strong indicator that David Cameron is considering to adopt neoconservatism. That is what I think he meant by muscular liberalism.