Stem cell research

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EgyptPrincess

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Salaams,

From Googling online is would seem that this topic is still in debate amongst the ulema so I wanted to just ask for your opinions and growing organs in the lab. Are you for or against it?

So a child needs a heart transplant and he can just get one created in the lab for him from stem cells.

Now for a bit of fantasy although not too far in the future, neuroprosthetics. Implanting computer chips in our brains to make them more powerful. Human memory isn't fantastic, walk into a room and spend 30 seconds looking at everything and then walk out of the room and try to remember where everything was placed. It's pretty difficult. Imagine being able to commit those memories to a chip in your brain and recall them at any given time? Sounds like sci-fi at the moment but it's the future :D

Thoughts? Haram, halal, ethically wrong etc.
 
:salam:

Read this: https://islamqa.info/en/108125

From the fatwa, it is haram to intentionally do an abortion, and some more..

And it is haram to use it as commercial gain.

It is best that we consult the Shariah etc. rather than spread opinions without knowledge.

But I am pretty sure it is haram to intentionally donate a sperm and an egg to obtain stemcells from.

Playing with life ain't no joke.
But in any case, I wouldn't rely my brain on a chip.
And Allah SWT knows best.
 
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Serinity said:
:salam:

Read this: https://islamqa.info/en/108125

From the fatwa, it is haram to intentionally do an abortion, and some more..

And it is haram to use it as commercial gain.

It is best that we consult the Shariah etc. rather than spread opinions without knowledge.

But I am pretty sure it is haram to intentionally donate a sperm and an egg to obtain stemcells from.

Playing with life ain't no joke.
But in any case, I wouldn't rely my brain on a chip.
And Allah SWT knows best.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about abortions... We're talking about growing organs in labs to replace faulty organs and stem cells do not come from sperm. They can be from bones, embryos and many others.

And can you please stop telling me to "spread opinions without knowledge" I am merely asking what people think of the idea as there is no ruling on it yet.
 
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Well there have been recent breakthroughs in regressing differentiated (adult) cells into their progenitor stages (induced pluripotent stem cells). Nothing wrong with that.

Only matter of issue comes from embryonic stem cell research. Which is research into stem cells before differentiation.

But that goes into the topic of abortion instead, and Islamically at what stage the embryo is considered to have a soul (the Ruh is blown into it within the 4th week)

Any suggestion of brain to chip interface that advanced is at least a lifetime off from being possible and even then unlikely to ever be possible.

Recent advances in neural implants allow for a computer to record neural impulses and that's about it really.
A team in Ohio implanted a chip in the primary motor cortex to record neural impulses in a paraplegic man. After some time they were able to decide what signals were meant for contraction of which muscle groups, and have been now able to remotely stimulate the muscles with external electrical stimulation based off the data the chip in the brain outputs. A sort of bypass instead of having to go through the damaged nerves.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/health/paralysis-limb-reanimation-brain-chip.html

As exciting as all of this is, and the implications it has towards helping the disabled of course, it also highlights how rudimentary our knowledge is.

We are only reading impulses and trying to figure out what they correspond to. Motor and sensory output/input is more simple in this sense than what you are suggesting.

Up until now we still have no real idea of how memory is stored or how it works, (although we do know what areas of the brain are responsible for it)

A neural interface that allows us to access and record data on the fly in a perfect meld of biological and synthetic is just way too far beyond us currently and probably ever.
 
Admittedly it would be pretty cool, to insta download data to
the brain. I just don't believe that will ever happen though. It seems too far off a difference from what makes us human innit?
InshaaAllah in Jannah we'll have perfect memories and vastly improved biology
But I can't really expect anything like that in this dunya.
In this dunya the best we can do are find cures for disorders and diseases and we won't really go beyond that, although finding cures is wonderful in itself IMHO

There is definitely a community who are really hoping for and expecting this Singularity that you describe though.

I think the speculation is fun and all and makes for some great scifi stories but that it will ultimately be limited to that
 
Cpt.America said:
Well there have been recent breakthroughs in regressing differentiated (adult) cells into their progenitor stages (induced pluripotent stem cells). Nothing wrong with that.

Only matter of issue comes from embryonic stem cell research. Which is research into stem cells before differentiation.

But that goes into the topic of abortion instead, and Islamically at what stage the embryo is considered to have a soul (the Ruh is blown into it within the 4th week)

Any suggestion of brain to chip interface that advanced is at least a lifetime off from being possible and even then unlikely to ever be possible.

Recent advances in neural implants allow for a computer to record neural impulses and that's about it really.
A team in Ohio implanted a chip in the primary motor cortex to record neural impulses in a paraplegic man. After some time they were able to decide what signals were meant for contraction of which muscle groups, and have been now able to remotely stimulate the muscles with external electrical stimulation based off the data the chip in the brain outputs. A sort of bypass instead of having to go through the damaged nerves.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/health/paralysis-limb-reanimation-brain-chip.html

As exciting as all of this is, and the implications it has towards helping the disabled of course, it also highlights how rudimentary our knowledge is.

We are only reading impulses and trying to figure out what they correspond to. Motor and sensory output/input is more simple in this sense than what you are suggesting.

Up until now we still have no real idea of how memory is stored or how it works, (although we do know what areas of the brain are responsible for it)

A neural interface that allows us to access and record data on the fly in a perfect meld of biological and synthetic is just way too far beyond us currently and probably ever.
Click to expand...

I agree the computer chip implants are far in the future but the exponential growth in scientific technology means I think we'll be seeing this kind of thing not impossible in our lifetimes.
 
Cpt.America said:
Admittedly it would be pretty cool, to insta download data to
the brain. I just don't believe that will ever happen though. It seems too far off a difference from what makes us human innit?
InshaaAllah in Jannah we'll have perfect memories and vastly improved biology
But I can't really expect anything like that in this dunya.
In this dunya the best we can do are find cures for disorders and diseases and we won't really go beyond that, although finding cures is wonderful in itself IMHO

There is definitely a community who are really hoping for and expecting this Singularity that you describe though.

I think the speculation is fun and all and makes for some great scifi stories but that it will ultimately be limited to that
Click to expand...

What about growing organs in the lab so when someone needs a transplant they can get one grow for them. Would you agree with this? I know a lot of people use the term "stop trying to play god" when we talk about stem cells because we are literally changing and manipulating things on a molecular level
 
EgyptPrincess said:
What about growing organs in the lab so when someone needs a transplant they can get one grow for them. Would you agree with this? I know a lot of people use the term "stop trying to play god" when we talk about stem cells because we are literally changing and manipulating things on a molecular level
Click to expand...

Well of course I agree with this.
Any new medicine to help someone who is sick is a good thing.
Its not as though the organs you are speaking of are foreign organs (one body to another) the way that organ transplants work now (which must be screened for genetic comparability prior, and even then have a chance of being rejected by the body)
The organs you are speaking of are grown from the donors own cells.

There has been progress in 3D printing hearts and livers. Which is pretty legit.
Pretty far off from wholly functioning organs,
but if they can help a sick person become well, (through Allah's mercy of course) that is nothing to denounce.

Islam has lead the way in scientific, medical, and mathematical breakthroughs because of the religion, not despite it.
The Muslims have stagnated because we no longer care about our Islam.

to a Muslim, we would never try to "play God" by healing someone.
And expanding knowledge in the sciences and arts is not antithetical to Islam, quite the opposite.

That being said, the importance is what we intend to use our science for and how we do.
For example experiments conducted by Johns Hopkins and other medical institutions in the earlier days, where black people were tortured/experimented on and mentally ill children were lobotomized, is definitely not halal.
 
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EgyptPrincess said:
We're not talking about abortions... We're talking about growing organs in labs to replace faulty organs and stem cells do not come from sperm. They can be from bones, embryos and many others.

And can you please stop telling me to "spread opinions without knowledge" I am merely asking what people think of the idea as there is no ruling on it yet.
Click to expand...

I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.
 
On what level are we susceptible to falling into the changing the creation of Allah SWT which is obviously haram?

I mean, would cloning be haram?
 
Serinity said:
I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.
Click to expand...

yes, but there are two types of stem cells that are being used for research.
OP was talking about regressing adult cells in adults to their previous stemcell forms.
Not embryonic stem cells.
 
Cpt.America said:
yes, but there are two types of stem cells that are being used for research.
OP was talking about regressing adult cells in adults to their previous stemcell forms.
Not embryonic stem cells.
Click to expand...

I see. This sounds similar to cloning, (the technique used is probably similar to that of cloning) but afaik, ain't cloning haram? To what extent could we go and what is the definition used by scholars and what does it mean to change the creation of Allah SWT?

Ultimately, whatever we come up with, everything lies in the Mercy and will of Allah SWT. Obviously as Muslims we know nothing can happen except by the will of Allah SWT.

Btw, could we use this to try to develop a 'regenerative' power? Like being able to rengenerate wounds and stuff like that.. Lost arms?
 
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Serinity said:
I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.
Click to expand...

You don't only get them that way. The best cells are embryonic but you can use cells from bone marrow, blood, teeth or anything.

The reason embryonic cells are the best is because they can be made into any type of cell.

 
EgyptPrincess said:
You don't only get them that way. The best cells are embryonic but you can use cells from bone marrow, blood, teeth or anything.

The reason embryonic cells are the best is because they can be made into any type of cell.

Click to expand...

From the little knowledge I remember that adult stemcells are specialised as such can only form into certain types.

But how would one know, whether to make an arm or a lung? how do we know what direction to take? Obviously it is Allah SWT that creates it, we only do the plug and play part, kinda thing.
 
Serinity said:
I see. This sounds similar to cloning, (the technique used is probably similar to that of cloning) but afaik, ain't cloning haram? To what extent could we go and what is the definition used by scholars and what does it mean to change the creation of Allah SWT?
Click to expand...

The current process of cloning involves copying a full genetic template, DNA, and implanting it in an evacuated ovum.
I cannot honestly say whether this is haram or not as an ovum is not an embryo. I do not recall of the ovum can be evacuated as is, or it must be evacuated after fertilization.
Anyway I don't see any point in cloning.
It is not as if you are making an exact copy of yourself or some soulless body for organ transplantations. You are creating a twin.
which is rather purposeless.

Identical twins, are naturally occurring clones created by Allah. They have the same exact DNA. Pretty cool right?

The process for forcing a cell to go backwards into its stemcell state doesn't use any of the same mechanisms as cloning anyway.
The changes are induced chemically for the most part.
 
Cpt.America said:
The current process of cloning involves copying a full genetic template, DNA, and implanting it in an evacuated ovum.
I cannot honestly say whether this is haram or not as an ovum is not an embryo. I do not recall of the ovum can be evacuated as is, or it must be evacuated after fertilization.
Anyway I don't see any point in cloning.
It is not as if you are making an exact copy of yourself or some soulless body for organ transplantations. You are creating a twin.
which is rather purposeless.

Identical twins, are naturally occurring clones created by Allah. They have the same exact DNA. Pretty cool right?

The process for forcing a cell to go backwards into its stemcell state doesn't use any of the same mechanisms as cloning anyway.
The changes are induced chemically for the most part.
Click to expand...

The major question is, how would we know what direction it will be created as? Like would it be created as a leg, arm, etc?
 
Serinity said:
Like being able to rengenerate wounds and stuff like that.. Lost arms?
Click to expand...

Now you're on my wave length! haha.

Starfish and some octopus can regenerate their limbs. Also there is a jellyfish that is immortal to old age and can never die unless eaten or it dies from a disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii

Imagine you lose an arm in an accident and it just grows back xD
 
Serinity said:
From the little knowledge I remember that adult stemcells are specialised as such can only form into certain types.

But how would one know, whether to make an arm or a lung? how do we know what direction to take? Obviously it is Allah SWT that creates it, we only do the plug and play part, kinda thing.
Click to expand...

it depends on the injury.

If someone has blood cancer, and the stem cells in their bone marrow are destroyed, if you can take one of their blood cells and turn it into a stem cell and implant it into their bone marrow, it can grow to replace the destroyed cells.

If someone has a nerve injury, spinal cord damage, etc. if you can take neuron stem cells and have them grow back the damaged tissue they would no longer be injured

etc.

Its not as if you're actually creating whole organs in the lab with stem cells. A single organ requires many different types of cells so it would not be feasible
 
EgyptPrincess said:
It is possible, even the topic of 3D printing organs has been spoken about. http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/artificial-lung-grown-laboratory
Click to expand...


We've 3D printed scaffolds and had pre-existing cells colonize them yes.

I meant for 'growing back' a limb it would involve actually growing it back. As in getting bone muscle nerves and blood vessels to grow. This after cells in the body are induced to begin growing again or stem cells derived from those adult cells are implanted in the body to spur regrowth.

As opposed to manufacturing a whole arm in a lab and then attaching it to an amputee.

Ultimately, except for certain less diversified organs (heart, liver, etc) the body has to still do the physiological work.

Also 3D printed organs are a bit of a different thing. We don't need any stem cells for those.

Stem cells come into question when we're talking about non proliferating cell lines. like nervous tissue and cardiac muscle.
 
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