Stephen Hawking says afterlife is a fairy story

[Pygoscelis]

Well sure, he probably is reacting primarily to Christianity. That makes sense, as it is the religion that permeates our culture over here. Islam is probably rather irrelevant to him, as it is to most non-religious folks here. Some of us are interested in Islam and other religions, but that is probably the exception to the rule. I doubt Mr. Hawking was thinking particularly of Sikhism or Hinduism as he wrote that either.

 

[Dagless]

No. Just because I have a recipe for Vichyssoise, doesn't mean I have Vichyssoise.

The recipe isn't a valid example because a recipe for vichyssoise is itself a thing; it is a piece of paper with writing or a computer file or a memory in someones brain (which Hawking sees as no different from the paper or computer). Then the vichyssoise is another thing. The real example would be just because you have vichyssoise doesn't mean you have vichyssoise.

A law doesn't make the thing. It is only a description of the thing, and is based upon the thing. If gravity was different then the law would be different. If there was no gravity then there would be no law of gravity. If you think some abstract idea of something from this universe which does not exist on it's own can somehow transcend space, time, and matter then I say why only the idea of gravity? Maybe it's actually the recipe of vichyssoise which will materialise the next universe.

 

[FS123]

I've read some of the Hawkings works, and you won't get proper responses for the critique of Hawkings idea is because critique has a valid point. Here is a little background where Hawking is coming from. Before the Big Bang (whatever maybe the correct term) was known, physicists used to believe that the Universe always existed. After the Big Bang was known, we now know that this Universe had an starting point. So that brings creation, God, etc... into the equation. So Hawking thought if he removes God from it, it would be better for scientific advancement (not his exact words, but google you will find he said something like this in an interview). So he throws back the all ways existed argument before this Universe (lets say mother Universe) which always existed, and in it child universes keeps popping up randomly. So he is trying to bring pre-big bang beliefs again in a different form that ok this Universe started at a point but the mother Universe (for the lack of better term) always existed. He doesn't call it Mother Universe, but I'm trying to translate into something that summarizes his point of view. He describes it in imaginary time and some sort of gravity that existed pre big bang in the parent universe which has all the ingredients for universes popping up randomly. Correct me, if I mis-paraphrased him, but thats what I understood from his work.

Second, mainly his argument are in the light of Christian understanding of God because thats the idea of God he is most familiar with.

 

[Ramadhan]

I've read some of the Hawkings works, and you won't get proper responses for the critique of Hawkings idea is because critique has a valid point. Here is a little background where Hawking is coming from. Before the Big Bang (whatever maybe the correct term) was known, physicists used to believe that the Universe always existed. After the Big Bang was known, we now know that this Universe had an starting point. So that brings creation, God, etc... into the equation. So Hawking thought if he removes God from it, it would be better for scientific advancement (not his exact words, but google you will find he said something like this in an interview). So he throws back the all ways existed argument before this Universe (lets say mother Universe) which always existed, and in it child universes keeps popping up randomly. So he is trying to bring pre-big bang beliefs again in a different form that ok this Universe started at a point but the mother Universe (for the lack of better term) always existed. He doesn't call it Mother Universe, but I'm trying to translate into something that summarizes his point of view. He describes it in imaginary time and some sort of gravity that existed pre big bang in the parent universe which has all the ingredients for universes popping up randomly. Correct me, if I mis-paraphrased him, but thats what I understood from his work.

Now, this makes more sense. What didn't make sense before was that the summary from the atheists here that Hawking explain the universe as self-spontaneously created out of absolute, eternal nothingness by gravity.

Second, mainly his argument are in the light of Christian understanding of God because thats the idea of God he is most familiar with.

Yep, that's also the sense I've got.
That's why I wish there's muslims who can give him da'wah and explain Allah and Islam, and see how he can argue against the concept of God in Islam.

 

[Trumble]

Or it maybe because he was a bad person in his previous life so his bad Karma has made him disabled in this life - why dont you ponder on those lines instead.

Not much need to 'ponder' really. The Buddhist conception of rebirth is rather less simplistic, but even your presentation is at least coherent, which is more than can be said for the 'God' version.

 

[Zafran]

Not much need to 'ponder' really. The Buddhist conception of rebirth is rather less simplistic, but even your presentation is at least coherent, which is more than can be said for the 'God' version.

thanks for that pity I cant say the same thing about your presentation of the 'God version' - its preety poor. For spending all that time here and you couldnt figure out that the 'God' version is also rather less simplistic

 

[Lynx]

"They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."


Umm... Hawking.. not every religion in the world is christianity where they take a human being as God!

ummm I think he knows that. He obviously finds all personal Gods to be human-like (not literally humans as you seem to interpret his words to mean). I can see where he's coming from; a being that wants you to praise and worship him and punishes you if you don't and who is capable of feeling anger or love if he's obeyed or not and will grant requests if you ask nicely sounds surprisingly human. I wonder why. Christians will say because God has made humans into his image...

 

[CosmicPathos]

Regarding Mr Hawking's perspective:
I see his point, I respect his point, but I disagree.

Generally speaking, I think spirituality is not given the same attention nor respect that science, often deservedly, receives. Until it does, you're going to continue to have this divide between science and religion - when really, they need to merge.

At the same time, it's difficult to show the benefits of spirituality though, as it's often a personal thing i.e. reflection, meditation etc.

I guess we all just need to keep an open mind about things.

So you respect disbelief?

w salam

 

[CosmicPathos]

naidaamar: i think you gave too much credit to Hawkings when you said he is the brightest mind. Really? He is the brightest mind? What has he discovered which helped humanity? Any drugs? Any treatments for deadly diseases? Any thing which rids humanity of its pains and maladies?

There are far far more accomplished scientists than Hawkings. I am afraid Hawkings does not even stand a chance.

 

[Ramadhan]

ummm I think he knows that. He obviously finds all personal Gods to be human-like (not literally humans as you seem to interpret his words to mean). I can see where he's coming from; a being that wants you to praise and worship him and punishes you if you don't and who is capable of feeling anger or love if he's obeyed or not and will grant requests if you ask nicely sounds surprisingly human. I wonder why. Christians will say because God has made humans into his image...

Obviously he has not learned about Islam and Allah, and neither have you.

 

[Ramadhan]

naidaamar: i think you gave too much credit to Hawkings when you said he is the brightest mind. Really? He is the brightest mind? What has he discovered which helped humanity? Any drugs? Any treatments for deadly diseases? Any thing which rids humanity of its pains and maladies?

I think I was wording it the wrong way. In many publications, Hawking is considered the brightest mind or among the brightest minds since Einstein.
Therefore I made a rather sarcastic comment how someone considered the brightest mind can be that dumb.

 

[Trumble]

naidaamar: i think you gave too much credit to Hawkings when you said he is the brightest mind. Really? He is the brightest mind? What has he discovered which helped humanity? Any drugs? Any treatments for deadly diseases? Any thing which rids humanity of its pains and maladies?

There are far far more accomplished scientists than Hawkings. I am afraid Hawkings does not even stand a chance.

It's HAWKING.

I'm not sure since when developing treatments for deadly diseases became necessary to being 'bright', or a great scientist, as opposed to advancing other fields of knowledge? I guess that means Newton and Einstein can join Hawking in the big FAIL club. :rollseyes Hawking is a cosmologist, and that simply isn't what they do (amazingly enough).

 

[CosmicPathos]

It's HAWKING.

I'm not sure since when developing treatments for deadly diseases became necessary to being 'bright', or a great scientist, as opposed to advancing other fields of knowledge? I guess that means Newton and Einstein can join Hawking in the big FAIL club. :rollseyes Hawking is a cosmologist, and that simply isn't what they do (amazingly enough).

Well, he might be the brightest cosmologist, certainly not the brightest mind. I was referring to that. Regarding how can we objectively decide who has the brightest mind, I guess we can never. Hence, to use such terms is inappropriate and deceptive. I just wanted to make sure that people really are not believing that HAWKING is the smartest person alive. Ironic, the brightest mind couldnt find a cure for his malady.

Naida: jazaks, i got the sarcasm now

 

[Ramadhan]

Ironic, the brightest mind couldnt find a cure for his malady.

or to realize that his condition is a miracle.
Many doctors have voiced their suspicions and disbeliefs that he really has ALS because there's no way someone can have ALS and yet still be alive after all these time.
Does Hawking not believe that medicine is a branch of science?

 

[ProudMuslimSis]

It is surprising that Hawking has never won a Nobel Prize! I suppose he could after his work is supported and findings confirmed.

BTW, I read that he was largely influenced by his mother who was a member of the Communist Party in England, and then his wife of 25 years, Jane Wilde, who was a practicing Christian. Also, during past interviews, he insisted that he was not an atheist and has been known to attend an Anglican church with his second wife.

 

[Ramadhan]

BTW, I read that he was largely influenced by his mother who was a member of the Communist Party in England, and then his wife of 25 years, Jane Wilde, who was a practicing Christian. Also, during past interviews, he insisted that he was not an atheist and has been known to attend an Anglican church with his second wife.

Hawking refuses to tell outright that he is an atheist so that he can sell more books and book more appearances.
However, he has said that he does not believe in God. Did you not read the article I posted in the beginning of this thread?
Does NOT believe in God = Atheist.

Also, Jane wilde has publicly said that hawking is a steadfast atheist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Hawking refuses to tell outright that he is an atheist so that he can sell more books and book more appearances.

This is probably true and a sad testament to the discrimnation atheists face in the west. It is actually something atheists and muslims have in common - bigotry, discriminatino and demonization from conservative christians.

 

[FS123]

Hawking refuses to tell outright that he is an atheist so that he can sell more books and book more appearances.
However, he has said that he does not believe in God. Did you not read the article I posted in the beginning of this thread?
Does NOT believe in God = Atheist.

Also, Jane wilde has publicly said that hawking is a steadfast atheist.

Perhaps he is not an atheist thats why? In interviews, the views he has expressed seems to indicate that he is somewhere between agnostic and deist. Maybe changing his opinion between those two time to time. Even in the article he isn't clearly going against God, but he is talking about afterlife. His reasoning even in this article and in interviews before that our world is like a speck of dust in a desert (not his exact words), we are so small compared to the rest of the universe(s) that God couldn't be a personal God to us. So he is leaning more towards deist beliefs.

Reminds me of the aya:

The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind, yet most of mankind know not. (Quran 40:57)

 

[جوري]

Perhaps he is not an atheist thats why? In interviews, the views he has expressed seems to indicate that he is somewhere between agnostic and deist. Maybe changing his opinion between those two time to time. Even in the article he isn't clearly going against God, but he is talking about afterlife. His reasoning even in this article and in interviews before that our world is like a speck of dust in a desert (not his exact words), we are so small compared to the rest of the universe(s) that God couldn't be a personal God to us. So he is leaning more towards deist beliefs.

Reminds me of the aya:

you know this all actually brings an interesting quote of Einstein to mind:

Albert Einstein once was asked what had led him to ponder some of the great mysteries of the universe. He responded, appropriately enough, that he really didn't know, nor did he have any expectation that he ever would. "After all," he quipped, "what does a fish know about the water in which it swims all its life?"

No human has all the answers no matter how advanced they're or how advanced they're thought of..

the quote that does come to mind from the Noble Quran is:

مَا أَشْهَدْتُهُمْ خَلْقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَا خَلْقَ أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَمَا كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذَ الْمُضِلِّينَ عَضُدًا [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{51}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:51] I made them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor their own creation; nor choose I misleaders for (My) helpers.


And that is the truth of the matter!

[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[FS123]

you know this all actually brings an interesting quote of Einstein to mind:

Albert Einstein once was asked what had led him to ponder some of the great mysteries of the universe. He responded, appropriately enough, that he really didn't know, nor did he have any expectation that he ever would. "After all," he quipped, "what does a fish know about the water in which it swims all its life?"

No human has all the answers no matter how advanced they're or how advanced they're thought of..

the quote that does come to mind from the Noble Quran is:

مَا أَشْهَدْتُهُمْ خَلْقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَا خَلْقَ أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَمَا كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذَ الْمُضِلِّينَ عَضُدًا [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{51}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:51] I made them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor their own creation; nor choose I misleaders for (My) helpers.


And that is the truth of the matter!

[/SIZE][/FONT]

And this brings some other quotes from Quran to mind

let there be no doubt about it is [[the Quran] meant to be] a guidance for all the God- conscious [2:3]

(Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they
may meditate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.
[Sad 38:29]

…This [revelation] is a means of insight from your Lord, and to provide guidance and, mercy unto people who will believe.” (Quran 7:203)

“And this (Quran) is a Book which We have bestowed from on high, a blessed one: follow it, then, and be conscious of God, so that you might be graced with His mercy.” (Quran 6:155)

Alif Lam Ra. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou
mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of
their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in Power, Worthy of all Praise!
[Ibrahim 14: 1]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad
tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not.
Sa Ba 34: 28

It (the Qur'an) is simply a reminder to all the worlds. (Surah Sad: 87)

"It is certainly a reminder to you and to your people, and you will be questioned" (Surat az-Zukhruf: 44)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

"And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember; then is there anyone that will receive admonition?" [Noble Quran 54:17]

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it from corruption." [Noble Quran 15:9]