Stoning!

[M.I.A.]

Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)

i watch peace tv sometimes and there is a guy on there that talks about Christianity often.. i think he may specialise.

if i remember correctly he said that any person who thinks about adulatory it is the same as performing the act.
if this is the case then there may be more punishable then first thought.
i have no idea what facts his views are based so im sure someone can better clarify.

im not sure on Christianities views on treating parents but the quran does mention that the quran itself is the guidance, so will you still follow the ways of your fathers and there forefathers(loosely paraphrased).

repentance is remembrance,
so spend this life remembering allah swt..and dont be of those that are heedless of there own prayers (in the book, not sure where)

maybe thats the whole point, punishing each other is acting on autopilot.
its said that the tongue can lead to hell.. but everytime you put somebody down it feels like you have won.

its the shaytan that makes our own actions seem fair to us(again not sure where it is in the book, but it is there), we are content in living like that.

so people keep punishing and being punished.. insolence and competition.

we dont live by mob rule but im sure they will show up after the trial.

also in western ideology you cant get married to more than one women so technically your either awaiting visa or cheating.. whatever man.. also its no longer "socially acceptable"
the quran also states that those that your right hand possess are lawful unto you(i have no idea what that means) but also socially unacceptable apparently.

kids grow up in broken homes not for cheating but because of poor parenting.. if only someone would remember the children for gods sake!

its a case of rules on morality actually abolishing morality AND compassion AND empathy AND ultimately humanity.
whatever man, i live my life and i know i will have to account..
people think that believing in god allows us to go on autopilot in this life.

when we finally see it, then you will know where you are heading(loosely paraphrased)

im always loosely paraphrasing, dont need the road becoming any tighter

 

[Who Am I?]

I had a nice long reply to brother Salahudeen's post but I lost it. I'm not re-typing it now.

But dude, that was AWESOME. Totally awesome.

 

[GuestFellow]

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??

Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists. So he has given permission to humans to punish other humans in this world. Of course, there will be those who commit sin and do not get punished. These people will be dealt with in the next life by Allah.

Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??

Torture is when you inflict pain, whether physical or psychological or a combination of both, on a suspect to extract information. In Islam, we do not punish suspects. In order to punish an individual, they need to be found guilty and then sentenced by a Judge.

If you have two couple that commit fornication openly in public, you need to punish them to deter other people from committing this sexual offence. If they are not punished, some people will not be afraid to commit fornication. Due to the negative consequences of fornication, deterrence takes priority over rehabilitation.

There is pornography available all over the Internet. It encourages others to engage in sex outside of marriage. In the past, to prove someone for fornication/adultery was difficult. Now, if implemented, establishing the guilt of those that commit the offence is much easier if they were to post it on the Internet which everyone has access to.

And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-

Yes, it is painful. That is the purpose of stoning. It will make people think twice before committing adultery. Keep in mind, the punishment in hell is worse.

So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?

Well not in this world as explained above.

And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)

From what I can remember, you will not get punished twice for the same sin. If you get stoned for adultery, you will not get punished in hell. Other members can feel free to correct me on this one, I'm not aware of the details.

 

[SafaAuditore]

Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol

 

[SafaAuditore]

@Tragic Typos
You said God will carry out his punishment not in this life, so in the afterlife, so why would WE need to punish them?
“Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists.” I don’t even understand what that means lol XD

 

[GuestFellow]

@Tragic Typos
You said God will carry out his punishment not in this life, so in the afterlife, so why would WE need to punish them?

We need to punish criminals because none of us want to live in a society where we have people committing crime. No one wants to live in an area where people kill and rape other people and get away with it. So that is why we have a system to ensure to protect the public and prosecute and punish those that commit offences. This is our responsibility.

“Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists.” I don’t even understand what that means lol XD

Sure, badly explained.

The whole purpose of our existence is to believe and serve Allah, even though we cannot see him. This is the test. If Allah were to appear and punish the criminals, we would all believe in him, which defeats the purpose of the test. Do you get it? :skeleton: Wow this is actually hard to explain lol.

 

[M.I.A.]

with regards to murder, i think the story of kain and able may shed some light on how allah swt manifests justice in this world.

 

[joyous fairy]

Assalam Alaykum,

Just a few points I would like to add:

If Allah swt did not reveal certain punishments for certain crimes, the crimes would be occurring on a much larger scale. Even now that there is not one Islamic state, Muslims know the punishment for certain crimes is meant to be so severe, they cant imagine what the punishment for it will be when they
they die. We dont know how bad it will be but we know that certain crimes will be dealt with much more harshly and because they are given the chance to own up and repent, they can escape that punishment. Obviously we can leave it to Allah swt, and get punished in the hereafter. For all we know, Allah swt may punish us a lot more harshly.

Also, if Allah swt did not send down punishments for certain crimes, wouldnt people wonder at the truthness of Islam? I think religion should tell us what is a sin and what is a major sin. If it did not, people would do what they want. The fact its a way of life it should come into every aspect of our life. If certain crimes were not mentioned it would be far easier for people to commit them and avoid the punishment. People can easily say 'we didnt know about the enormity of the crime'. So they would be able to get away with it! Obviously common sense tells us that adultery is wrong, and that is the point, Islam is a common sense religion! The punishments are written according to the scale of the crime.

 

[Ramadhan]

Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol

sister,

I am not sure if you read all the above explanations, but it seems you keep forgetting the very strict conditions adultery can be tried and punished.

 

[Ramadhan]

double post.

please delete.

 

[SafaAuditore]

Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????

 

[Ramadhan]

If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????

Using this argument, then all prisons must be abolished, all kinds of punishments in any forms must be abolished, all perpetrators of ANY crimes must not be punished, because all those punishments are administered by humans anyway.

I'm not quite sure if you see any logic in it.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

As'Salaam Alaykum

Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)

Your right, so in other words God is not injust, he doesn't punish for no reason, nor does he prescribe punishment for no reason, even he knows the hearts of all people and we humans do not.

No where does it state that God just punishes just like that or places punishment for no reason, are you aware of the 99 attributes of Allaah SWT?

Al Ghaffar - The Forgiving, Al Ad'l - The just, and these are just a few of his many beautiful names.

Yes, Allaah SWT states in his noble book that we humans are weak..

"And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak."[Al Qur'aan 4:28]

so therefore we will commit mistakes, and the best of sinners is one whom repents, so yes there is forgiveness, one who repents, repents with sincerety..

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 39:53]

One thing is that the shari'ah law is not implemented completely in the world today, only parts, and the way the stoning takes place are not by islamic legislated principles, in other words Islam doesn't allow/accept this way of stoning, where people are completely taking the law into their own hands, and are injust by not showing no mercy, by not turning to individual whether they repented sincerely, it seems there is a lack of knowledge in these cases. However, I am not aware of any place where stoning has taken place in accordance to shari'ah law as of yet, so If I am incorrect do feel free to correct me. The punishment of stoning is of such that noone would dare commit crimes that lead to being stoned or punishments as such, if only they knew. So if there are those who aren't aware of the consequences, they would most likely fall into the traps of major sin, thinking its not wrong and that it is okay, when in reality it is not, rather the society, people, environment, and so on make it seem like it is okay.

After one whom has committed the act of Zina, in order to be forgiven he will have committed the act of Zina out of ignorance and not with the intention that "Allaah is forgiving, so therefore we must continue", this is known as taking advantage of the forgiveness and mercy of Allaah SWT, when knowing the act is completely forbidden itself. The individual should be in full state of humbleness and humiliation before his lord Allmighty, that the crime he committed was completely wrong, he must then make an intention to not return to the sin while asking for forgiveness from his lord..


"When those who believe in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) come to you, say: "Salamun 'Alaikum" (peace be on you); your Lord has written Mercy for Himself, so that, if any of you does evil in ignorance, and thereafter repents and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then surely, He is Oft�Forgiving, Most Merciful".[Al Qur'aan 6:54]

I'm sure others have explained it well inshaa'Allaah and hope it is helpful towards yourself.

If I have stated anything incorrect please do correct me.

Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol

Yes, there is a way out, which is improving one self for his/her own good. Reasons to why a criminal is put in jail or punished in a certain way so that he may change, become a better person etc. In Islam this judge is Allaah, who knows what is a good for us and what is bad, so therefore he prescribed in his noble book just this.

Actually Islam is known more of a complete way of life. The sad thing is that what Islam teaches is NOT completely all implemented, therefore it makes Islam look like it is really bad, whereas it is only some muslims/followers who are not following the teachings correctly. This is due to lack of knowledge, ignorance of people who like to associate certain events with Islam. The reality is that these punishments are placed so that the crimes are decreased.

And I would like to add, you cannot come to a conclusion just by watching some video/article whatever the source may be, about stoning in regards to stoning in Islam. You have to study exactly what the shari'ah mentions in regards to this issue, it is an issue which requires a knowledgeable authority to reply, also one is required to seek 'ilm, and it is a journey we are all continuing with...

Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????

Not necessarily, the purpose of the punishment is so that the person will not go back to doing that crime again. Unfortunately the punishments prescribed by some government in this day are not enough to let the person realise that if these are the consequences we will face after doing a certain crime then we musnt by any form go back to doing that crime again. In other words a serious crime involves a serious punishment. If the person commited a major crime, he will have to deal with its consequences, he put himself in that certain position, but if that person realises and repents of his act with pure sincerety, repenting between himself and Allaah SWT and perform righteous deed's then Allaah is most forgiving.

 

[joyous fairy]

Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????

Well, if the person knows that the punishment is being carried out according to the ruling that Allah swt has sent, they would have more fear of Allah swt.

Even so, better to stop people committing these sins than letting them get away with it with no fear of anyone.

 

[Ummshareef]

If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????

No, because all Muslims know that the humans meting out the punishment are doing so because they are charged with responsibility for administering the Shariah, including the punishments prescribed by Allah subhana wa ta'alaa. Humans have no right to either increase or decrease the prescribed punishment - subject to high evidential standards being met. Allah subhana wa ta'alaa has set the punishment, so it must be administered. Full stop.

Before I reverted to islam, I was like you and thought that Islamic punishments were cruel and barbaric, but if you take the time to read up and understand the reasoning behind them, then insha'allah you will realise that they are actually great mercies provided by Allah subhaha wa ta'alaa for the protection of the Ummah and that they play a great part in keeping Islamic society safe and peaceful alHumdulillah. Stoning is undoubtedly an horrific punishment for adulterer and adultress alike - it is intended to be so but insha'allah can be easily avoided by staying away from sin. It should just be there in the back of everyone's mind as a constant reminder of the dangers of straying from the True Path and of the overwhelming power that Allah subhana wa ta'alaa holds over each and every one of us.

 

[User29123]

Salam

As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.

 

[Ramadhan]

As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.

Yes, as far as I know, there was no muslim who was punished for adultery during the time of Rasulullah (SAW) based on the four witnesses evidence.
The couple (separate cases) that I know of were based on their own voluntary confessions, a man and a pregnant woman from Junainah, who came forward to Muhammad (SAW) and confessed that they committed adultery, Rasulullah SAW was reluctant to mete out the punishment. With the pregnant woman, he pretended he didn't hear her and turned around. But the woman insisted that she deserved punishment until finally prophet (SAW) could not refuse and told the woman to go away and wait for punishment until the baby is born, hoping that the woman never comes back. And then after the woman has given birth, she came back to prophet (SAW) and demanded her own punishment, but Rasulullah (SAW) told her to go away and to nurse her baby until the baby is weaned at 2 yo in the hope that she never came back for her punishment. When two years has passed, she came back to Rasulullah saw, kept demanding her own punishment. This time, there was nothing that Rasulullah could do to delay her punishment. and so she was punished with stoning.
Right after her death, some people were gossiping about her, saying that she was such a loose woman. Hearing this, Rasulullah (SAW) said that the repentance of the woman was so great and if her repentance was divided among the residents of Madinah, it would have been enough to wipe out all their sins.

 

[SafaAuditore]

Jazakallahi khairun bros and siss =) I understandd!
Another question cleared!

 

[MSalman]

I didn't think your answer was helpful because you didn't provide any further evidence to help her learn and understand why when clearly at the end it appeared that she was looking for a bit more explanation there. I am interested in learning more too.

I didn't provide more information because of the way she asked this question. Let's agree to disagree on this.

I just think you should be careful not to clump every human into one category like that.

I didn't paint everyone with same brush. I was talking about Islamophobes and not people who have some ounce of sincerity in their heart when they have questions about Islam.

sister,

I am not sure if you read all the above explanations, but it seems you keep forgetting the very strict conditions adultery can be tried and punished.

Salam

As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.

wa'alaykum as-salaam

I would like to add my 2 cents on this but it will have to wait until morning - I'm heading to bed.

 

[Ramadhan]

I want to add some inputs and examples on the effectiveness of corporal punishments by non-muslim countries.

1. Singapore
vandalism, destruction of public properties carried corporal punishment by caning (and public littering carries heavy fines). Of course this has always been th esubject of derision, objection and disgust by the west, especially since an american boy (Michael Fay) and a swiss man (in separate cases) were caught and convicted and punished by caning. The west may see it as inhumane, but the fact shows that in very little time, with such strict corporal punishments, it has acted as deterrent, and Singapore was transformed in very little time from society that paid little respect for public cleanliness and order to become the world's cleanest, most orderly country.

2. China
Since its economy rose in the 80s and early 90s, corruption in China also rose dramatically, and to combat corruption, China instituted death penalty by hanging and execution by shooting for the worst and most prominent offenders to deter others. The west (and human right activists) have always derided the chinese as being "barbaric". But what did they know, the harsh corporal penalties were quite successful in slowing down corruption increases and is even reversing it. Fact: According to Transparency International, China dropped from being the fifth most corrupt out of 54 countries in Transparency International's 1995 Corruption Perception Index to 78 out of 158 in 2005 to 70 out of 163 in 2006 to 72 out of 179 in 2007 http://www.piie.com/publications/chapters_preview/4174/05iie4174.pdf
Everybody knew that in the 70s and 80s, corruption in China was very prevalent.