Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

[MidnightRose]

This is, I think, a good reason or at least explaination of why people are Islamic. It is not about critical thinking. It is not about individualistic divergence from the norm. It is all about a pathway to a group coherant way of life where the rules are known.


I am resistant to making such a thread because it is exactly putting Islam in the dock of a scientifically structured court.

Clearly there are contradictions in the Koran. But I think that that is not the point of why Islam persists.

Hello Tim,

Where is your thinking?

 

[Scimitar]

No question that Muslim lands contributed greatly historically to science, especially during the Christian dark ages. But that appears to have changed a few centuries ago. The cynical question wouldn't be what have you done, but what have you done lately

your ignorance astounds me - dude - are you asking Muslim as a group of people "what have you done lately?" You're sounding like a nineties pop diva now.

Some juice for ya - I can throw the question back to your camp and you will see how dumb the actual question is.

Allah does not judge a people based on their reputation but on an individual basis - a very personal basis - so when you ask "what have you all done - lately?" I look at you look at my popcorn and look back at you and comment with "hold that thought - I need more popcorn"

Scimi

 

[Muhammad]

No question that Muslim lands contributed greatly historically to science, especially during the Christian dark ages. But that appears to have changed a few centuries ago.

The fact remains that such an immense contribution at a time when others were asleep speaks volumes about the ideals and values driving it. The very same Book that some here are trying to discredit on the basis of ignorance or distortion is the same by which the earlier generations were inspired and guided by. Surely, if Islam was really about suspending all inquiry and reason, we would not see such a great rise of civilisation at such an early point in its history.

The cynical question wouldn't be what have you done, but what have you done lately

However, let us not be so quick to assume that Muslims contribute nothing even now. Muslims continue to contribute in various fields across the world. Here follows a list of achievements from 2014:


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[TD="bgcolor: #008000"]Genetics:
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• Scientists co-led by the Egyptian geneticist Dr. Sherif El-Khamisy at the Center of Genomics (CG), Zewail City of Science and Technology (ZC) in Egypt, identified the first defect in a genetic pathway for individuals who suffer impaired neural function.
• A team of researchers led by the Iranian computational biologist, medical geneticist and evolutionary geneticist Pardis Sabeti trained doctors from the Muslim countries Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone to use a sequencing and diagnostic technology to improve tracking Ebola virus's mutations.
• Dr. Teepu Siddique, a Pakistani neurologist succeeded with his team in discovering one of the causes of Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS).
• The Moroccan geneticist Dr. Ismahane Elouafi was named among the 20 Most Influential Women in Science in the Islamic World under the Shapers category, and the CEO-Middle East Magazine has listed her among the World’s 100 Most Powerful Arabophone Women in the Science category.

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[TD="bgcolor: #800000"]Medicine:
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• A Kashmiri molecular neurotherapist and stem cells professor has successfully discovered a brain cancer treatment. He achieved this via prompting stem cells to kill brain cancer.
• Two Egyptian scientists created space-based crystals of two proteins of the Hepatitis C virus. The crystals which were developed in space can help in innovating new drugs to fight the virus.
• Dr. Sheik Umar Khan, the doctor who led Sierra Leone's fight against the worst Ebola outbreak and the one who treated more than 100 patients and dozens of health workers, died from the virus.
• Scientists in the Muslim country of Bashkortostan are developing a technology to make monoclonal antibodies specific to fight the Ebola virus.

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[TD="bgcolor: #808000"]Mathematics:
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• An Iranian mathematician became the first ever female winner of the celebrated Fields Medal. In a landmark hailed as "long overdue", Prof Maryam Mirzakhani was recognized for her work on complex geometry.
• Kazakhstani Muslim scientist proves the existence of a solution to Navier Stokes Equation which is deemed one of the hardest in the world.

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[TD="bgcolor: #550886"]Engineering:
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• The Moroccan engineering scientist Rachid Yazami became a co-winner of 2014 Draper Prize by the US's National Academy of Engineering for pioneering and leading the groundwork for today’s lithium ion battery.
• Three Malaysian academics were chosen among the world’s leading scientific minds, according to a report by business information firm Thomson Reuters.

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[TD="bgcolor: #008080"]Education:
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[TD="bgcolor: #74B6B6"]According to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), four Muslim countries were ranked in the top 20 destinations all over the world for international students.
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[TD="bgcolor: #0099CC"]Space:
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• The European space probes Rosetta and Philae didn't only have Egyptian names to commemorate the Egyptian Civilization’s contributions to humanity, but four Egyptian scientists have also worked in this historic space mission.
• Egyptian students were ranked internationally among the top 20 teams of space engineering youth groups that participated at the University Rover Challenge (URC), in USA. In 2016, Bangladesh and Egypt are among the teams advancing to the semi-finals.
• A young female Kazakh inventor Nazifa Baktybayeva has been working on a real in-orbit satellite that will allow Kazakhstani students to conduct research based on materials obtained from space. This invention wasn't Nazifa's first one as in 2012 she created a model of a Venusian spacecraft that was fabricated using parts of her own old computer, headphones, a DVD disk, an umbrella and even a hanger and she calculated the craft's trajectory.

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In addition, here is a list of 14 exciting and celebrated nanotechnologists from the Muslim world:

1. Dr. Mostefa El-Sayed [Nano-scale Scientist], Regents’ Professor and Julius Brown Chair, Georgia Institute of Technology, Zewail Prize, #17 on Thomson Reuters, Top 100 Chemists of the Decade
2. Dr. Ibrahim Elfadel [Designer of Nano-scale Tools], Professor, Masdar Institute, Winner of Six Invention Achievement Awards, an IBM Outstanding Technical Achievement Award and a Research Division Award
3. Dr. Muhammad Al-Sayah [Supra-molecular Chemist], Professor, American University of Sharjah and winner of Comstech Award
4. Prof. Ali Khademhosseini [Biologically inspired Engineer], Assoc. Prof., Harvard Medical School, President Obama’s Early Career Award
5. Dr. AbdolReza Simchi [Nanostructures & Biomaterials], Assoc. Prof., Sharif University, Khwarzimi International Award
6. Munir Nayfeh [Quantum Nanotechnologist], Professor, University of Illinois (UIUC), Award for Single Atom Detection
7. Sharifah Bee Abd Hamid [Catalyst and nanomaterials], Deputy Vice Chancellor, University of Malaysia
8. Dr. Aghil Yousefi Koma [Designer of Micro-vehicles], Professor, University of Tehran
9. Resit Turan [The Solarizer], Director, Center for Solar Energy, Research & Applications, Metu, Turkey
10. Muhammad Mustafa Hussain [Integrated nanotechnologist], Associate Professor, King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), Thuwal, Saudi Arabia
11. Halimaton Hamdan [Synthesizer of Nanostructures], Director, National Nanotechnology Directorate, Mosti, Malaysia
12. Prof. Uda Hashim, Director [Micro-electronic Systems Engineer], Institute of Nano Electronic Engg, Malaysia
13. Dr. Irfan S. Ahmed [Bionanotechnologist], Executive Director, Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology, University of Illinois (UIUC)
14. Prof. Ali Eftekhari [Electrochemist & Nanoscientist], Avicenna Institute of Technology (USA)

List from: http://muslim-science.com/14-most-exciting-nanotechnologists-from-the-muslim-world/


In terms of the future, there are grassroots efforts across the Muslim world to stimulate curiosity about science among students of all ages, operating without much government support. Eminent international experts have called for comprehensive reforms to universities of the Muslim World seeking to transform societies though scientific excellence.

 

[Serinity]

This is, I think, a good reason or at least explaination of why people are Islamic. It is not about critical thinking. It is not about individualistic divergence from the norm. It is all about a pathway to a group coherant way of life where the rules are known.


I am resistant to making such a thread because it is exactly putting Islam in the dock of a scientifically structured court.


Clearly there are contradictions in the Koran. But I think that that is not the point of why Islam persists.

Know that you are clearly mistaken. you are probably thinking Islam is "close your eyes and believe" or "believe then you will know" etc.

you do know that the Qur'an condemns blind belief and following?

 

[Muhammad]

I will add, in response to the following statement:

We no longer [...] keep an entire gender subdued.

How ironic that the world's largest women-only university was opened in Saudi Arabia in 2011. Situated on the outskirts of the capital, Riyadh, the Princess Nora bint Abdulrahman University has the capacity for 50,000 students. An article in the guardian reports that more young Muslim women have been gaining degrees at British universities than Muslim men, even though they have been under-represented for decades.

This is of little surprise, when we consider the central role that Muslim women have played in preserving Islamic teaching. Within the bounds of modesty in dress and manners, women routinely attended and gave classes in the major mosques and madrasas, transmitted and critiqued hadith and issued fatwas. Some of the most renowned scholars among men have depended on, and praised, the scholarship of their women teachers. The women scholars enjoyed considerable public authority in society, not exceptionally, but as the norm. If we look into the biographical works written about the scholars, such as al-Dhahabi’s encyclopedic Siyar A`lam al-Nubala’, we find the biographies of many women mentioned for every era of Islamic history.

Here are just a few of the notable scholars from various eras:

Mu`âdhah al-`Adawiyyah (d. 83 AH). One of the scholars and reliable narrators from the generation of the Successors (the students of the Companions). She related from `Alî b. Abî Tâlib, `A’ishah, and Hishâm b. `Amir.

`Amrah bint `Abd al-Rahman b. Sa`d al-Ansârîyyah (d. 98 AH). She was a Successor and one of the prominent students of `A’ishah. She also learned from the Companions Umm Salamah and Râfi` b Khadîj. She was one of the important legal scholars of Madinah from the generation of the Successors.

Hafsah bint Sîrîn al-Ansâriyyah (died after 100 AH). She was a student of Umm `Atiyyah, Anas b. Mâlik, and other Companions. She was also one of the legal scholars from the generation of the Successors. Qatâdah was among her students.

Amah al-Wâhid bint al-Mahâmilî (d. 377 AH). She was a noted jurist of the Shâfî’î school of law and a muftî in Baghdad.

Karîmah bint Ahmad al-Marwaziyyah (d. 463 AH). She was one of the most important narrators of Sahîh al-Bukhârî and had many prominent students, including al-Khatîb al-Baghdâdî.

Zaynab bint `Abd al-Rahmân b. al-Hasan b. Ahmad b. Sahl al-Jurjâniyyâh (d. 615 AH). She was a prominent scholar of Khorasan. She was one of the students of the famous language scholar al-Zamakhsharî from whom she received an academic degree.

Yâsamîn bint Sâlim al-Harîmiyyah (d. 634 AH). She was a scholar of hadîth. Ibn Bulbân was one of her most prominent students.

Zaynab bint Makkî b. `Alî b. Kâmil al-Harrâniyyah (d. 688 AH). She was a prominent scholar from Damascus and a teacher of Ibn Taymiyah, the famous hadîth scholar al-Mizzî (the author of Tahdhîb al-Kamâl), and many others.

Zaynab bint `Umar b. Kindî b. Sa`îd al-Dimashqiyyah (d. 699 AH). She was also one of the teachers of the famous hadîth scholar al-Mizzî.

Khadîjah bint `Abd al-Rahmân al-Maqdisiyyah (d.701). She was a scholar and writer, a student of Ibn al-Zabîdî and others. She was also one of the teachers of the famous hadîth scholar al-Mizzî.

Zaynab bint Sulaymân b. Ibrâhîm b. Rahmah al-As`ardî (d. 705 AH). She was one of al-Subkî’s and al-Dhahabî’s teachers. She had heard al-Sahîh from Ibn al-Zabîdî.

Fâtimah bint Ibrâhim al-Ba`lî (d. 711 AH). She was also a student of Ibn al-Zabîdî and a teacher of Ibn al-Subkî and many others.

Fâtimah bint `Abbâs b. Abî al-Fath al-Hanbaliyyah (d. 714 AH). She was a prominent Hanbalî legal scholar and muftî, first in Damascus and then in Cairo.
​

Let us not forget that it was a woman who was the first to embrace Islam, Khadeejah bint Khuwaylid :raha:, a woman who reached a high level and an exalted position amongst the Muslims. Let us not forget that it was a woman who was amongst the most prolific narrators of Hadith, Aisha bint Abubakr :raha:. The number of Hadith attributed to her authority reaches over two thousand. She was also a distinguished jurist - an encyclopedic work on her juristic views was compiled which covers some 767 pages. Let us also not forget than an entire chapter of the Qur'an is named after Women, a chapter containing 176 verses. It delineates the rights of women and specifies their rights regarding inheritance, income and marriage. Not only this, but the Qur'an contains another chapter named after one of the most respected women in Islam, Maryam (alayha-salam), mother of Prophet Isa :as:. Her impeccable character is a role model for all. Allah :swt: raised her status and chose her from among the women of the entire world. Indeed, many verses and many Ahadeeth clarified her great status.

In this current age, where the honour and dignity of women is suffering to greater and greater extremes, the growing trend of western women choosing to convert to Islam speaks for itself.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Muhammad,

czgibson, you should know better than to misquote Islamic texts to support preconceived opinions.

I haven't misquoted anything, and you haven't answered any of my questions, as usual.

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

I haven't misquoted anything, and you haven't answered any of my questions, as usual.

From my previous discussions with you, I have come to learn you are less interested in seeking answers than you are in proving your own opinions. This is why you earlier quoted verse 5:101 from the Qur'an, yet seem to have completely ignored the responses explaining the context and the meaning of not asking too many questions. There are examples of other Islamic texts illustrating how questioning can be good, such as the well-known 'Hadeeth of Jibreel' in which the Angel Jibreel :as: came and asked the Prophet :saws: important and beneficial questions. Indeed, there are some questions that are considered an obligation upon the individual. To prematurely conclude that Islam is against all questioning by quoting one verse of the Qur'an is very clearly misquoting and unacceptable.

However, I did not totally resist the temptation to respond to some points. My earlier post about the contribution of Muslims to modern society and the high esteem for knowledge in Islam had this post of yours in mind:

Civilisations make progress largely through experiment and observation, research and innovation. This requires a basic curiosity about the world and its workings that is absolutely negated by your myopic position.

Despite what you may think you can achieve by picking and choosing Islamic texts, history is a testament against such erroneous views.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Muhammad,

Once again, you have completely misunderstood my position. Never mind.

Peace

 

[AabiruSabeel]

You must give lots of power and money to the priest/vicar/Imam. You must kill who he says. You must die to defend this idea you have not thought it worth questioning.

Well, I have the keys to the gates of heaven. All you have to do is send me $1000 and I will send your soul to heaven when you die. I have this power.

That was hilarious. We Muslims do not pay the Imam or give him the power to rule out of his own accord. No Imam can send you to heaven, no matter how much you pay him. You must be confusing between Muslims and Christians or Jews.

But Tim, thinking for yourself is dangerous! You may have bad thoughts or reach incorrect conclusions! If God is all good and all knowing, isn't it better to stop thinking for yourself, and just do whatever God says? Submit your will, your thoughts and your moral decision making to him. And if anything he tells you to do sounds bad or wrong, don't worry, it can't really be bad or wrong, because he is all good and all knowing, and he knows better than you. So go ahead and do that horrible thing that God is telling you to do! It'll be ok. Its actually a good thing to do and your [-]victims[/-] beneficiaries will be happy for it in the end.

^ About sums it all up, right?

Did we not inform you that Allah :swt: never commands a bad or horrible thing? I would suggest you to go back and re-read both the threads from the beginning once again.

We keep hearing that the Qur'an encourages the reader to think and ask questions. So can anybody explain what the following passage is about?

"O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. A people asked such [questions] before you; then they became thereby disbelievers." (5:101-102)

Answered in posts #122, #132 and others. Yet you don't seem to acknowledge them.

The worst criminal? Really? Worse than a child rapist or a serial killer? That's crazy!

Because being a child rapist or serial killer are not the traits of being a Muslim.

So if I can find contradictions and plain wrong bits in the Koran it is to be considered as valid as all the other religious books of gibberish then?

You have clearly not read the Qur'an.

Well for contradictions I went to this site;

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

I found, amongst others;

For the question "Was Pharaoh Drowned or saved?"
Drowned:-

Saved:-

Islamophobic and anti-Islamic sites will never teach you what the Qur'an actually says.

The Pharaoh and his army was drowned and his body was thrown out from the water and Allah :swt: preserved it as a sign for those to come.

So the situation with Islam appears to be: ask questions, but not too many. This is the attitude of someone who is opposed to free inquiry, and, if it's backed up divine authority, one of the most effective ways to discourage questioning. I know Muslims will deny it, but that's a straightforward contradiction in the Qur'an, right there.

Hopefully we can all bear this in mind the next time someone makes the absurd claim that Islam encourages questions.

You are getting the wrong conclusion here.

There are two different types of questions. One that gives you no benefit in this world as well as the Hereafter, as already explained by other members above. That is discouraged.

And the other type that helps you in understanding a concept. For example (already stated previously but you choose to close your eyes and mind), Ibrahim :as: asked Allah :swt: about how He raises the dead once again. The same question was also asked by 'Uzair :as:, even though both of them had firm belief in life after death. Go back and read my previous post once again.
This type of questions are not discouraged.

Greetings, Muhammad,

I haven't misquoted anything, and you haven't answered any of my questions, as usual.

Peace

There does not remain anything that is not answered. You just keep repeating the same again and again. Clearly, you are not here to learn and understand, but to troll, misquote and disregard.

 

[Tim_the_Plumber]

Know that you are clearly mistaken. you are probably thinking Islam is "close your eyes and believe" or "believe then you will know" etc.

you do know that the Qur'an condemns blind belief and following?

If you wish to start a thread about the contradictions in the Koran and why they are not contradictions I will participate but I think it would be a bit aggresive of moe to be the one doing so.

 

[abumuslim82]

This is, I think, a good reason or at least explaination of why people are Islamic. It is not about critical thinking. It is not about individualistic divergence from the norm. It is all about a pathway to a group coherant way of life where the rules are known.


I am resistant to making such a thread because it is exactly putting Islam in the dock of a scientifically structured court.

Clearly there are contradictions in the Koran. But I think that that is not the point of why Islam persists.

Clearly you are ignorant

 

[Serinity]

If you wish to start a thread about the contradictions in the Koran and why they are not contradictions I will participate but I think it would be a bit aggresive of moe to be the one doing so.

you are the one who made the claim. So I ask you to make the thread. Besides, that Anti-Islamic page is ozzing of lies, misunderstanding, either deliberate or accidental.

if you are sincere about Islam, I ask you to make the thread.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Because being a child rapist or serial killer are not the traits of being a Muslim.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

There are two different types of questions. One that gives you no benefit in this world as well as the Hereafter, as already explained by other members above. That is discouraged.

And the other type that helps you in understanding a concept....
This type of questions are not discouraged.

And my simple objection to this is: who decides?

There does not remain anything that is not answered. You just keep repeating the same again and again. Clearly, you are not here to learn and understand, but to troll, misquote and disregard.

It's called disagreeing. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Your a Muslim and I'm an atheist, we're bound to disagree on some things.

Peace

 

[MisterK]

No true Scotsman fallacy

Eh, but is it really though? The way it was worded, the statement seems to be saying child rape and serial killer behavior are not promoted/taught as part of Islam, not so much stating that a person isn't a Muslim if they commit those acts. For example (and on a much less serious note than rape or murder), if a Muslim person decides to eat pork, that isn't the trait of a Muslim, even though that person is still Muslim.

Don't get me wrong, if it was intended as "any one who does this isn't a Muslim," then yeah, I'd agree with you on it being the No true Scotsman fallacy, that just doesn't look like it was written to mean that to me, though.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Once again, you have completely misunderstood my position.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

These two seem to be your favourite means of evading a response nowadays.

And my simple objection to this is: who decides?

There is a simple answer, which is to ask your heart and apply common sense. Is one asking with an open heart, sincerely seeking guidance, or are they asking for ridicule and due to obstinacy? Are questions being asked with the real intent of application or beyond what is needed?

It's called disagreeing. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Your a Muslim and I'm an atheist, we're bound to disagree on some things.

Please do not insult our intelligence by assuming we don't know the difference between simple disagreement and regularly dropping disrespectful and derogatory remarks about Islam, particularly about Allaah :swt: and the Qur'an. The sarcasm and mockery is not lost on us.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, MisterK,

Welcome to the forum.

Eh, but is it really though? The way it was worded, the statement seems to be saying child rape and serial killer behavior are not promoted/taught as part of Islam, not so much stating that a person isn't a Muslim if they commit those acts.

Look at the hadith that started this line of discussion:

'The worst criminal among the Muslims is the one who inquired about something which had not been made unlawful, and then it was declared so, because of his inquiry.' (Bukhari, I'tisam', 3; Muslim, Fada'il', 132, 133; Abu Da'ud, 'Sunnah', 6 - Ed.)

As you say, a person could commit an act that is contrary to Islam, yet remain a Muslim. For example, they could be a murderer. Apparently, according to the hadith, this is not as severe a crime as someone inquiring about something not yet unlawful. Do you think this is a fair reading?

If so, then ibn-Adam's response must be interpreted as "any one who does this isn't a Muslim", otherwise it has no logical relation to the preceding conversation. Unless you can think of another explanation?

Peace

 

[MisterK]

Greetings, MisterK,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks.

Look at the hadith that started this line of discussion:

'The worst criminal among the Muslims is the one who inquired about something which had not been made unlawful, and then it was declared so, because of his inquiry.' (Bukhari, I'tisam', 3; Muslim, Fada'il', 132, 133; Abu Da'ud, 'Sunnah', 6 - Ed.)

As you say, a person could commit an act that is contrary to Islam, yet remain a Muslim. For example, they could be a murderer. Apparently, according to the hadith, this is not as severe a crime as someone inquiring about something not yet unlawful. Do you think this is a fair reading?

I'd say, based on my limited knowledge of Islam, and assuming no other surrounding or historical context in relation to that hadith which changes its meaning in any way, that yes, it is a fair reading if I assume the inclusion of the rest of the hadith, in that such inquiry leads to that thing becoming unlawful, was intended in your statement.

If so, then ibn-Adam's response must be interpreted as "any one who does this isn't a Muslim", otherwise it has no logical relation to the preceding conversation. Unless you can think of another explanation?

Peace

Even with that assumption of a fair reading, it doesn't inherently mean ibn-Adam's statement must be interpreted that way. As I mentioned before, maybe it was intended that way, but I don't see it reading that way. Without further explanation from ibn-Adam, I'd say it is, at worst, a non-sequitur, not the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, while at best simply an incomplete or poorly phrased counter-point. If ibn-Adam were to expand on the point, it may help clarify the matter.

 

[aamirsaab]

I wish people would stop using hadiths as if they are mandatory obligations applicable to all and sundry in all times and circumstances - a hadith is literally a set of words or actions of the prophet that were recorded. That's it. They aren't automatically legally or religiously binding rulings that must be followed else you will leave the folds of Islam...

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@czgibson

I created an entire post in response to your post to my words; and I lost the post when I signed in again to post because it wouldn't restore all the words I'd typed despite me clicking on "restore auto-saved content." This is to say I haven't forgotten your post, and I still intend to reply. I'm just trying to get over my frustration first about having lost the original content of my response.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

The way it was worded, the statement seems to be saying child rape and serial killer behavior are not promoted/taught as part of Islam, not so much stating that a person isn't a Muslim if they commit those acts. For example (and on a much less serious note than rape or murder), if a Muslim person decides to eat pork, that isn't the trait of a Muslim, even though that person is still Muslim.

Look at the hadith that started this line of discussion:

'The worst criminal among the Muslims is the one who inquired about something which had not been made unlawful, and then it was declared so, because of his inquiry.' (Bukhari, I'tisam', 3; Muslim, Fada'il', 132, 133; Abu Da'ud, 'Sunnah', 6 - Ed.)

As you say, a person could commit an act that is contrary to Islam, yet remain a Muslim. For example, they could be a murderer. Apparently, according to the hadith, this is not as severe a crime as someone inquiring about something not yet unlawful. Do you think this is a fair reading?

If so, then ibn-Adam's response must be interpreted as "any one who does this isn't a Muslim", otherwise it has no logical relation to the preceding conversation. Unless you can think of another explanation?

MisterK understood my statement correctly.

Murder and rape are among the major sins in Islam. I don't mean to say they will take a person out of the folds of Islam.

The worst crime mentioned in quoted Hadith does not mean it is the absolute worst crime, worse than everything else. There are several things that are equally worse crimes and this is included among them.

Another Hadith says:
'A'isha :raha: reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The greatest of criminals is the poet who satirises the entire tribe and a man who disclaims his father." [Al-Adab Al-Mufrad]

This does not really mean one crime is more severe than the other. Each crime has to be studied on a case-by-case basis. But they are all worse crimes.