Summa vs. Thumma

[Muhaba]

^i really wasn't talking about the Arabs who have gone so far away from real Arabic, it's a shame. I've heard egyptians talking and its so difficult to understand them. always saying things like masgid and guma, lol. i wonder how they pronounce egypt. but Arabs don't have problem with letters like ع and ق and ظ and ط and ث and even خ so i think they have no excuse. surely with a little practice egyptians can say ج instead of (the letter which doesn't exist in arabic). and the same goes for other Arabs.

But the ajam (non-Arabs) are the ones who have difficulty in changing their pronunciation, especially of the above letters. i highly respect those parents who send their children to arabic teachers from an early age to learn the correct pronunciation. everyone should try their best to improve especially recitation of Quran, which includes both correct pronunciation of letters and tajweed. however, where it's impossible for one to fix pronunciation of a letter, one shouldn't be discouraged as Allah knows our abilities and weaknesses.

 

[جوري]

. i wonder how they pronounce egypt

:haha: they call it masr..
and if you're in Egypt in any other place other than cairo, say Port said or Alexandria etc. then when people say masr (misr) it is always in reference to Cairo.. as if no Egypt exists outside of there..

 

[جوري]

Couple more thing I noticed of late... well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!
Another one is when you say 'rabbi zidni ilman' if you don't pronounce it with the ع then you'll be asking for Allah to increase your pain rather than your knowledge!
It is paramount in shaa Allah to pronounce Arabic correctly especially when we're in a position where people are listening to our lectures or khutbas..

 

[Insaanah]

well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!

Just looked up شان shaan in Arabic and discovered it means disgrace, dishonour. (Didn't know that before)
In Urdu, شان shaan means, glory, grandeur, splendeur, eminance.

Was the lecture in English or Arabic? If it was in Arabic, then saying it like that was clearly wrong. If it was in English, and the speaker was from India/Pakistan, then he would be referring to the Urdu phrase 3atheem ash-shaan عظيم الشان (without hamza) which means, of high station or dignity, magnificent, and would be used as a phrase praising Allah.

But subhaanallah how they mean complete opposties in the two languages.

JazaakiAllah khayr for sharing that.

 

[~Zaria~]

Couple more thing I noticed of late... well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!
Another one is when you say 'rabbi zidni ilman' if you don't pronounce it with the ع then you'll be asking for Allah to increase your pain rather than your knowledge!
It is paramount in shaa Allah to pronounce Arabic correctly especially when we're in a position where people are listening to our lectures or khutbas..

MashaAllah, such a beneficial thread!

Just want to share a story:

My mum is a recent revert, Alhamdulillah.
She attended Adult Islamic Courses for almost a year, and as I was not staying with her, I didnt make quite an effort to oversee this.
Ive recently realised that she was asked to by-heart the surahs - from the transliteration of the relevant arabic text - by herself!

Needless to say, Surah Fathihah (and all else) - did not sound very much as it is intended to sound! :/

Even though I can read arabic (fairly fluently, though with very little understanding - Insha Allah, something we all should be working on), I was worried about teaching tajweed - and perhaps passing down my own mistakes.....so I decided to invest in a 'Tajweed Quraan Pen':

It is a really worth-while investment, esp. for non-arabic speakers, who are trying to perfect their pronounciation - and can also assist when by-hearting ayats from the Quraan.
One of the great features is that you can chose your favourite reciter (I love Sh. Mishary al-Afasy : ) )......


So, thats my story.....(Moral: chose your teachers well! : ) )

JazakAllah khayrun for this thread, and bro Abz......looking forward to watching the rest of that series now, insha Allah.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Just looked up شان shaan in Arabic and discovered it means disgrace, dishonour. (Didn't know that before)
In Urdu, شان shaan means, glory, grandeur, splendeur, eminance.

Was the lecture in English or Arabic? If it was in Arabic, then saying it like that was clearly wrong. If it was in English, and the speaker was from India/Pakistan, then he would be referring to the Urdu phrase 3atheem ash-shaan عظيم الشان (without hamza) which means, of high station or dignity, magnificent, and would be used as a phrase praising Allah.

But subhaanallah how they mean complete opposties in the two languages.

JazaakiAllah khayr for sharing that.

The sad thing is the person who was told to correct his pronunciation wouldn't and he was giving a khutba to a large crowd on Friday- my brother told him (in private) ya akhi please you're mocking Allah, desist and pronounce it correctly and instead of taking it in good spirits he persisted and in Ramadan- does that make sense?.. It is really very sad when we feel we're grand mufti and can't even take a piece of advise said in good heart by our brothers and sisters.. astghfor Allah..

Jazaki Allah khyran for clarifying this for me as well.

 

[Insaanah]

It's a common mistake by some non-Arabs to pronounce ط the same as ت , as it's pronounced the same in their own language, and they don't know that it's any different in Arabic.

E.g. there's qaaniteen قانطين , those who despair,
and qaaniteen قانتين , those who are devoutly obedient

In this ayah,

They said, "We have given you good tidings in truth, so do not be of the despairing." (15:55)

pronouncing the ط as a ت will result in the following wrong meaning:

They said, "We have given you good tidings in truth, so do not be of the obedient."

 

[جوري]

Allah yikhleeki illi ya ukhty wa Jazaki kul khyer.. al7mdullilah.. I think this is really an important thread for those who know to pass along the wisdom of what they've learned in shaa Allah

 

[Tyrion]

I just found the phenomenon rampant on the forum and wanted to discuss it openly.. not to put anyone on the spot but so we can all learn something in sha Allah..
also like thabit and tabit or sabit both have really bad meaning...

I think the reason you find people typing an "s" instead of an "th" in forums like this is just because we get a lot of non Arabs. Languages like farsi (and maybe urdu? ) give ث an "s" sound, since "th" doesn't exist in those languages. Unless someone from those countries has been trained to read with proper Arabic pronunciation, they will say it as they would in their mother tongue out of habit.

well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!

Pretty sure this is the same issue in cases with some non Arabs. Many languages don't have a glottal stop, so it's difficult for them to say hamzah. hey resort to reading it as they would in their mother tongue (if the alphabet is the same).

 

[جوري]

Indeed in such a case the khutbah should be given in the mother tongue or if insistent on Arabic then every effort should be undertaken to ensure proper pronunciation in shaa Allah.

 

[Insaanah]

Another common mispronounciation by some non-Arabs, is to pronounce the letter 'ayn ع as a hamza ء.

This can also give rise to wrong meanings.

Ashyaa'akum أشياءكم means "your things".
Ashyaa3akum أشياعكم means, in the ayah below, "your likes" or some have translated it as "your sects".

In this ayah:

And indeed, We have destroyed your likes, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)? (54:51)

Pronouncing the 3ayn as a hamza will result in the following wrong meaning:

And indeed, We have destroyed your things, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

 

[_Y168]

Very true^ May Allaah guide us all. Aameen.

 

[Insaanah]

do you know the difference in meaning though with thumma vs. summa?

summa means poison ..

so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen

And, as if to illustrate, see the red arrow in this picture by sister منوة الخيال below, from another thread:

Photo from: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/29922-show-us-your-photography-skills-188.html#post1538910

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، عَنْ هَاشِمِ بْنِ هَاشِمٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ عَامِرَ بْنَ سَعْدِ بْنِ أَبِي وَقَّاصٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ سَعْدًا، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ مَنْ تَصَبَّحَ بِسَبْعِ تَمَرَاتٍ عَجْوَةً لَمْ يَضُرَّهُ ذَلِكَ الْيَوْمَ سُمٌّ وَلاَ سِحْرٌ ‏"‏

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
He who ate seven 'ajwa' dates in the morning, poison and magic will not harm him on that day.

Sahih Muslim (English) reference: Book 23, Hadith 5081, Arabic reference: Book 37, Hadith 5460

Source: http://www.sunnah.com/urn/250810

As a side note, some people also pronounce seen and saad the same (apart from pronouncing tha as seen as per thread title). So

صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path]. (2:18)

gets read as

سُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

meaning:

Poison, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

There's a thread on seen and saad here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/134299818-quran-necessary-recite-seen-saad-differently.html