SUMTHING ABOUT PPL WHO BELIEVE IN NATURE (SHORT ARTICLE U WONT GET BORED)

[kadafi]

I am sorry, as far as the understanding of "dark matter" goes, I don't agree with your theory of what "dark matter" is. We have to agree on this before we can move forward. This is a bit of a double edged sword, because nobody can prove (yet) the existence of "dark matter". However, And as much as I don't want to do your scientific research for you, we have to agree on some points. I am grateful that you are prepared to for a short time at least accept that dark matter exists. But we need to agree if this is in small particle form (wimps) or large (macho). Or for the sake of argument, allow us to draw on both. You need to let me know if you for a short time are prepared to accept WIMPS, MACHOS or both.

Peace,

Dark matter itself is still a mystery to scientists. I cannot spot the point to discuss a matter that is not even observable directly. We can endlessly speculate about this matter but let me point out that dark matter just proves the existence of the unseen (creatures) such as angels, soul, jinns etc.

Allah SWT said in surah 39, verse 42:
It is God that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes their souls) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed; Verily therein are Signs for those who reflect.

How on earth does the dark matter concept discredit the existence of God. I'd like to keep this discussion short since I'm currently undertaking exams.

Another issue that I want us to agree on, is the visible origins of the universe in that I want you to accept as a Scientific fact (beyond religous and Scientific differences) that we can see our past, albeit a universe created past for I dont mind which one you use at this current time and place. If you agree that we can indeed see back about 75% of the way back from where the mass is originating, and see the universe and it's matter at various stages of creation. And let's also agree that the "big Bang" can be heard but not seen, since this is the case.

Who said that religion cannot coexist with science Aren't we forgettin' that the ancient Muslims were the founders of modern science?

But as for your proposal; I'd be willing to accept it as long as it doesn't lead us to a dead end. Bear in mind that I do not want to speculate on theories that do not offer arguments regarding the existence of the Almighty.

Your above reply to my question could life be brought to this planet on the back of a meteor\comet. May I ask why you changed my theory to a myth, and can I ask Scientifically why you dont think it is possible for life to travel around the universe, smashing into planets, amongst other things! What interest me about your answer is that I wonder if you will simply reject it on the basis of Creationist view faith or both because you can't rule it out scientifically.

In order for it to be possible, it has to be logical. A thesis has to have logical claims before it can be worth arguing for. The frozen microbes,bacteria,viruses etc that originated from crashing comets or asteroids is simply unscientific and another fabricated myth to try to dispel creatonism. Let's assume that it's correct, we still are left with the question -- where did they come from? How did they orginate? And then comes the ussual abiogenesis myth as a reason.

Before going any deeper into this subject I would like to make a couple of points that I beleive are issues. Firstly, I don't represent anyone or any particular belief. I have my own very personal beleif that is outside the boundaries of religion.

Point taken, however, I do not agree with you when you stated "outside the boundaries of religion", this implies that religious people are not allowed to ponder about God's creation. This is simply false and Allah SWT encouraged us in the Qu'ran to ponder about his creation to build a better understanding of the Creator.

"Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).

Peace

 

[kadafi]

i know this is slightly off topic but...

do you u guys believe in the existence of aliens?

,,

Possible, -- however, I do know for certain that they do not possess intelligence and thought which Allah SWT endowed on mankind and the Jinns.

Allah knows best!

 

[root]

Definately - Indeed the Qur'an actually talks about Allah's "Bridging" which Islam actually supports the theory that it is possible that life exists. I might be talking complete rubbish here, but if Islam accepts their are "bridging" steps and also is open to the idea that life exists beyond the Earth. It can be reasonably argued that Allah created us in more than one stage as the Qur'an states that the universe was created over several stages.

As to it being Intelligent, I "think" the Qur'an suggests it will not be, but don't quote me on that.

So I think not only is it reasonable

The basic process in the formation of the Universe therefore lay in the condensation of material in the primary nebula followed by its division into fragments that originally constituted galactic masses. The latter in their turn split up into stars that provided the sub-product of the process, i.e. the planets. These successive separations left among the groups of principle elements what one might perhaps call 'remains'. Their more scientific name is 'interstellar galactic material'. It has been described in various ways; there are bright nebulae that reflect the light received from other stars and are perhaps composed of 'dusts' or 'smokes', to use the terminology of experts in astrophysics, and then there are the dark nebulae that are less dense, consisting of interstellar material that is even more modest, known for its tendency to interfere with photometric measurements in astronomy. There can be no doubt about the existence of 'bridges' of material between the galaxies themselves. Although these gases may be very rarefied, the fact that they occupy such a colossal space, in view of the great distance separating the galaxies, could make them correspond to a mass possibly greater than the total mass of the galaxies in spite of the low density of the former. A. Boichot considers the presence of these intergalactic masses to be of prime importance which could "considerably alter ideas on the evolution of the Universe."

We must now go back to the basic ideas on the Creation of the Universe that were taken from the Qur'an and look at them in the light of modern scientific data.

And their opions is that it is possible to find life.

The existence of an intermediate creation between 'the Heavens' and 'the Earth' expressed in the Qur'an may be compared to the discovery of those bridges of material present outside organized astronomic systems

One could argue that the Qur'an accepts life beyond the earth, and still retain credibility with the theory of "Bridging"..... that it has claimed in support of "Creationism".

 

[root]

I cannot spot the point to discuss a matter that is not even observable directly. We can endlessly speculate about this matter but let me point out that dark matter just proves the existence of the unseen (creatures) such as angels, soul, jinns etc.

Yes, you could theorise that easily. Though it was not part of my point.

How on earth does the dark matter concept discredit the existence of God. I'd like to keep this discussion short since I'm currently undertaking exams.

I never implied nor stated that my intention was to discredit the existence of Allah, I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"

Evolutionary science CANNOT discount the theory of creationism. To discuss Science, is not to disprove the theory of "Allah".

You have your exams, I accept this.

Thanks

Root

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

been reading bits and bobs of this thread but it seems theres too much which has already been discussed.

I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"

well misconception or not this is a fact.........

the existence of athiests was only recent when a group of christians lost faith in "jesus" and thus turned to make theories of their existence.........athiesm now almost seems like an entire new religion of people who belong to no religion but share the same belief of their existance.

their banner is like the muslims shahadah ........ there is no god (sorry, hah reminds me of the matrix where the kid goes, there is no spoon and the spoon bends )

but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.

 

[Uthman]

Assalama alaikum brother,

but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean saying "there is no god" implies that there actually is a god because you referred to god in your sentence therefore god exists? :applaud: What a mouthful, eh? Don't understand bro. Please clarify

 

[Khaldun]

You manage to loose me there aswell Brother Mujahid....what do u mean?

 

[root]

well misconception or not this is a fact.........

Sorry, I don't accept that. Is it OK for me to beleive every Muslim is a terrorist!"!!!!, of course not. So why are you persisting that every atheist is absolute against proving\disproving the theory of Allah.

It's nut's to suggest it

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

Sorry, I don't accept that.

well thats coz ur in denial........ well maybe there were the odd few athiests which did exsist before like the famous darwin-saab

Is it OK for me to beleive every Muslim is a terrorist!"!!!!,

well u know thats not true

but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.

i thought the analagy went well, well sort of as i made mention of the marix just before.

anyways what i was trying to say is that say i have a pen, i then hide it. you can't say it doesn't exsist just coz u can't see it. Same goes for Allah.

 

[aamirsaab]

now that was clever

booyah...erm ..sorry
keep the replies coming - keep em clean and keep em mean (hehe)
lets see how far this thread can go.

 

[root]

In Denial

well thats coz ur in denial........ well maybe there were the odd few athiests which did exsist before like the famous darwin-saab

Yet more misconceptions....

Atheist's fully subscribe to Darwinian theory of evolution

Not true my freind, you see what your trying to do is "Group" atheists into a catagory to which you can discuss on a "them and us basis".

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

As

I'd like to follow this post but i missed sooooo much. Insha Allah oneday i'll catch up!

 

[kadafi]

I never implied nor stated that my intention was to discredit the existence of Allah, I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"

Don't get me the wrong way, but bein' an atheist implies that you deny the existence of the Omnipotence. On that fact alone, you provide reasons to dispel the existence of God. In fact, I'd love to read how you concluded that God cannot exist.

Evolutionary science CANNOT discount the theory of creationism. To discuss Science, is not to disprove the theory of "Allah".

You stated 'Evolutionary science in the first sentence and Science in the latter. Evolution is not science and never will be. The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. But It is believed despite the scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution. Moreover evolutionary science automatically discredits theism. That's the whole purpose of the theory.

Peace

 

[root]

Don't get me the wrong way, but bein' an atheist implies that you deny the existence of the Omnipotence. On that fact alone, you provide reasons to dispel the existence of God. In fact, I'd love to read how you concluded that God cannot exist.


You stated 'Evolutionary science in the first sentence and Science in the latter. Evolution is not science and never will be. The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. But It is believed despite the scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution. Moreover evolutionary science automatically discredits theism. That's the whole purpose of the theory.

Peace

Their is little point to this thread now, it became interesting then died out. With what you say above, i doubt you were awake when you went to Science class as a Kid and then attended Religous Education. Fot the two are quite different. It seems for some here the two are not. And that is a great shame........

Peace

 

[kadafi]

Their is little point to this thread now, it became interesting then died out. With what you say above, i doubt you were awake when you went to Science class as a Kid and then attended Religous Education. Fot the two are quite different. It seems for some here the two are not. And that is a great shame........

Peace

Hi,

Like I mentioned in my previous above, Science and Islam are the two legs of man, if you stand on one or the other sooner or later you are going to fall. Perhaps you grew up with the concept that religion & science are fundamentally incompatible and thus seperatable. That might be true in Christianity or any other religious doctrine, but Islam itself is more than a religion. As Einstein once stated, "science without Religion is lame". Science leads to the existence of God whilst pseudo science leads to a dead end.

Many of the greatest scientists saw their science as a means of uncovering traces of God's handiwork in the universe.

Another example to point is the intellectual renaissance that the Muslims triggered. They went from the ignorant inhabitants of Arabian Peninsula to the one of the greatest civilizations that history has ever known. They contributed major inventions to every field of science. Some are known as the founder of that particular field. What lead this intellectual desire you ask? Simple, the thirst to study the creation of God as stated in the Qu'ran:

Those who remember God, standing, sitting and lying on
their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth (saying):
"Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire."(Qur'an, 3: 191)

Have they not looked at the camel-how it was created?
And at the sky-how it was raised up?
And at the mountains-how they were embedded?
And at the earth-how it is spread out?
So remind them! You are only a reminder.(Qur'an, 88: 17-21)

Peace

 

[aamirsaab]

see this is what happens when u try and mix science with islam

sometimes it works
sometimes it doesnt
just because science says something it doesnt mean we have 2 believe.
likewise just because religion says something doesnt mean we follow it (although we should)

sometimes science can mix with religion but bare in mind that religion came to mankind before science.

science gives us some answers that may never be revealed in religion.
religion can give us answers that may never be revealed in science.

u cant just follow science
and similarly u cant just follow religion - u need both of them to provide u with answers that u seek. if u only follow one of them properly and reject the other then things dont add up.


god created religion
man made science
who do u follow?

 

[kadafi]

see this is what happens when u try and mix science with islam

sometimes it works
sometimes it doesnt
just because science says something it doesnt mean we have 2 believe.
likewise just because religion says something doesnt mean we follow it (although we should)

You have this wrong definition of what science actually stands for. Science is merely the tool to explain the laws of God. No one said you've to follow it. As some say, it's man's undying thirst from knowledge. Furthermore, we're discussing established science. Unfortunately, it's worrysome that my fellow muslims claim that we should avoid science even though it goes against the statement of God in the Qu'ran which is to seek knowledge and study his creation.

You further stated brother, saying "just because religion says something doesn't mean we follow it". I do not quite comprehend that line perhaps you could elucidate it to me.

sometimes science can mix with religion but bare in mind that religion came to mankind before science.

Like I stated above, science is a tool to explain God's creation. To understand His creation. There was this famous sayin' -- Science explains how, Religion explains why.

Established science never contradicts Islam since they both are the twinsisters.

Wa'salaam

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

Yet more misconceptions....

Atheist's fully subscribe to Darwinian theory of evolution

Not true my freind, you see what your trying to do is "Group" atheists into a catagory to which you can discuss on a "them and us basis".

back to a previous point mentioned athiesm is just like a religion of people who wish not to follow/obey the Almighty Allah.

is always changing, you now get the string theory which is being accepted by the athiest community.

 

[root]

back to a previous point mentioned athiesm is just like a religion of people who wish not to follow/obey the Almighty Allah.

So according to you I am a religous person?

is always changing, you now get the string theory which is being accepted by the athiest community.

Yes, it is subject to many changes. Don't buy the string theory as being the most popular.

 

[aamirsaab]

in reference 2 kadafis reply

when i said sometimes islam and science mix and sometimes they dont i meant :
that sometimes u can explian stuff in islam with science
but sometimes u cant
e.g. evolution theory -. some people believe that we evolved from monkey. using science we can see the similarities between human and monkey. their are several features that are extremely similar ( ill not divulge into these tho). but islam tells us that we didnt evolve from monkey.

with regards to science being a tool/
yes it is a tool.
but that does not mean we have to use it all the time.
sometimes we cn find an explanation with science.
if we cant then perhaps the answer lies in our religion
or perhaps we as humans are not suppose to know these things yet.

using the tool theory, the above says
if a box is locked then can use a tool(science) to open it.
however, if the box is not meant to be opened then perhaps ur tool may break or perhaps u need another tool(Science) from a new toolbox (religion)

i am not saying that we shouldnt follow science itself.
im saying that we shouldnt follow it blindly - we should follow science AND our religion.

yes we can use science 2 explain a lot of things in this world.
but can science explain the afterlife (i.e heaven or hell)
no because it is simply a tool as u have stated
can we use our religion to explain the afterlife - almost certainly

yes science and islam do sometimes mix
but not always.
it depends on two things
what the question is
what answer are you looking for.


finally, regarding the : ''just because religion says something doesnt meen we follow it''
let us take 4 example the belief in the oneness of allah and that there is no god but he.
now, muslims only worship allah. yet, hindus for example do not believe or worship in allah. they have many gods

basically wot i meant was: just because one religion says something it doesnt meen that everyone will follow it.
because we each have our own beliefs.

hope that has cleared some stuff up brother kadafi.
now id best b off
iv got an exam soon eep.
wasalam 2 all
p.s if ur still lost in my explanation then pm me and ill further explain it.