Sunan Abu-Dawud Hadith book?

[AhmadibnNasroon]

There is no stoning to death in Islam. There is also no "abrogation" of Qur'an verses. One has to wonder why it is still practised in many countries? Is this not a clear indication that the "Ulema" are not doing their job properly?

This is the problem.

First of all, there was no abrogration of it. It was revealed and removed by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi'wa'salam from recitation however the hukm remained.

This is called asbaab'ul nuzool wal mansukh (reasons for revelation and its abrogations). Abrogations occurred throughout the Risaalah and the ayat of stoning was one instance.

Imam Ahmad says in his Usool ul-Sunnah

65. "And stoning to death (which is true and correct) is the rightful due of the one who has fortified (himself/herself with marriage) but fornicates, either when he/she admits (to this act) or when the evidence is established against him/her."

66. "The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alayhi'wa'salam) stoned to death and the Rightly Guided Leaders too, stoned to death."

Secondly, Allah mentions abrogations in the Qur'an.

106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things? - al Baqarah

This aspect of Islaam is from the sharee3ah.

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, when he was sitting on the minbar of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that He revealed was the verse of stoning, which we have read and understood. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) carried out the punishment of stoning and we did so after him. I fear that as time goes by, people will say, ‘We do not find any mention of stoning in the Book of Allaah,’ so they will go astray by forsaking an obligation that was revealed by Allaah. In the Book of Allaah, stoning is the punishment deserved by any previously-married person, man or woman, who commits adultery, if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2462; Muslim, 1691)

As for your last comment, then may Allah increase us and guide us to the straight path. When you say "scholars", who are you referring to. Please give me some names and also becareful, for the flesh of the ulemma are poisonous.

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Also, hadiths cannot "overrule" the Qur'an.

As Imam al Barbaharee says in his very first point of his "Sharh ul Sunnah",

1. "The Sunnah is Islaam and Islaam is the Sunnah therefore one cannot be established without the other."

The problem here is we as human beings think of the hadeeth as the hadeeth and we are not trying to look at the Sunnah. Let us talk about Qur'an and Sunnah, not merely a mushaf and hadeeth.

wallaahu'3lam

 

[Sampharo]

Kindly refrain from speaking personal wishes and innovated laypeople thoughts as statements of fact, it can lead you to great sin and blasphemy. Your whole approach and conclusion of how to interpret hadith is incorrect to start with, but your statement to the effect that there is no stoning in Islam and there is no abrogation is false under every Islamic principal. Sorry for being harsh but the direction was going in the wrong direction.

Stoning to death in Islam is as fortified a ruling as any of the Shariah laws, and it has been authenticated and documented. Additionally, the hadiths preemptively mentioned the notion that some people will come up with today to try and ignore or deny the existence of stoning as a ruling:

Al-Bukhaari and Muslim narrated in their Saheehs from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the truth and revealed to him the Book, and one of the things that Allaah revealed was the verse of stoning. We have read it and understood it. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him, but I fear that there may come a time when some people say: ‘By Allaah, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of Allaah.’ So they will go astray by forsaking an obligation that Allaah has revealed. According to the Book of Allaah, stoning is deserved by the one who commits zina, if he is married, men and women alike, if proof is established or the woman becomes pregnant or they confess…”

Additionally: Ubadah Ibn Samet narrated "whenever Allah's Apostle received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year."

As for abrogation, it is a whole science backed by evidence and based on principals. It is like suggesting there is no such thing as anatomy. Your statement that there is no stoning, or that there is no abrogation, is not only fundamentally flawed but also suggests that the Sunnah is corrupted then, a saying I am sure you were unaware of its gravity.

I hope you will begin learning and giving due appreciation to the scholars who have spent decades of their lives in authenticating for no desire of gain of money or worldly possession, and therefore will begin to re-examine your strange thoughts that scholars are not doing their job well, especiallt that you just made statements yourself without even basis.

May God grant us all guidance.

 

[MSalman]

I would request the mods to not to delete this please, jazak Allah khayr

Which Muslim here does not know about the evil of tongues and speaking about religious matters with no knowledge and making halal things haraam and haraam things halal?

pardon my harsh tone, but it is required, given the fact how many people on this board are influenced by deviant thoughts and by no mean I am implying that I am better than anyone; however, the attitude toward the deen of many people here saddens me and it is a big fitnah. It is only creating more confusions for newcomers (new to Islam, coming back to Islam, etc.)

I have yet to find a student of knowledge on this board, yet every other ding dong (Muslims and non-Muslims) utters whatever he wants about the deen without referring to people of knowledge. You are layperson so know your place and where you stand; this is a command by Allah in the Qur'an: so refer to people of knowledge since you are NOT one. "I am only going to follow the Qur'an or I directly take from the Qur'an and the Sunnah or I am going to understand ahadith in light of the Qur'an because the jahil scholars for 14 centuries did not understand Islam". Honestly, do you people even realize the implication, ramification and affects of such thoughts?

Abu Huraira relates that Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "there will be a group of people in the end of the days who will bring you views that neither you or your forefathers every heard of. So be warned and let them be warned. Allow them not to misguide you and cause Fitna (i.e. in your hearts)" [Sahih Muslim: 15]

Abu Huraira narrated the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم ) said: "In the end of the time there will be liars and fabricators who will report tales and stories that neither you or your fathers have ever heard . Be cautious of those so that they do not misguide you or tempt you" [Saheeh Ibn Habban: 6766]

Recorded in Musnad Ahmad hadeeth # 20335 that Abu Dhar said, “I was in the presence of the Prophet one day and I heard him saying, ‘There is something more I fear for my Ummah than the Dajjaal.’ It was then that I became afraid, so I said, ‘O Rasoolullaah! Which thing is it that you fear for your Ummah more than the Dajjaal?’ He [the Prophet] said. ‘Misguided and astray scholars.’

It is related by Shidaad ibn Aws that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: “Truly, I do not fear anything for my Ummah except astray scholars. Thus when the sword is raised against my Ummah, it will not be lifted until the Day of Judgment.” [Musnad of Ahmad, ahadeeth # 16493, 21360, 31359, 20334 and ad-Daarimi, ahadeeth # 211 and 216 and all of these collections are classed as authentic.]

Imam Malik (rahimahullah) said: "Whatever was not pat of the religion in their time (companions) can never be a part of the religion in any time"
​

May Allah protect us from this modern fitnah and keep us on haqq, ameen

I believe that hadiths must be interpreted in the light of the Qur'an, since the Qur'an is our only infallible source. I really like Pakistani scholar Dr. Khalid Zaheer's views on this matter: http://www.khalidzaheer.com/

brother, what you believe has no value when it comes to understanding Islam. Islam is understood how our pious predecessors (the sahabas and those who followed them) understood and not "we should do this or that...". Our deen and understanding of it is already established and it is not a software which needs security/bug patches or new features time after time. If you would have taken your knowledge from people of knowledge then you should have known that in matters of deen the sahih sunnah of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) is also revelation from Allah; thus, an infallible source.

As far Khalid Zaheer, I do not know much about him neither has read his works; however, he seems to be self learned person and following sentence, "influences on me in my Islamic learning: Javed Ahmed Ghamidi Sahib", is enough to tell more about what kind of belief he would have and whoever fears Allah and worries about his deen should flee from him and Allah knows best.

The problem is that there are (sadly) many scholars who don't interpret hadiths in the light of the Qur'an. It seems to me that masses of people follow such scholars. It's hard to find a reliable and knowledgeable scholar, unfortunately.

maybe you can give us list of these scholars and also quote us some Salaf who said that this is the criteria we should adopt. It seems to me brother you have a long way to go and may Allah help you to find the true scholars, and not those who have hijacked our deen and invented things which are alien to our ancestors, ameen.

There is no stoning to death in Islam. There is also no "abrogation" of Qur'an verses. One has to wonder why it is still practised in many countries? Is this not a clear indication that the "Ulema" are not doing their job properly?

It seems you know more than the companions (may Allah be pleased with them) of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him). If you can bring a single companion in support of your fatawa then we will take it otherwise it is nothing but garbage & deviancy. The first person who rejected abrogation was none other than a heretic emerged from Mu'tazilite (I do not know if you have heard them but it was a deviant group emerged in second century of Islam) and the Salaf rebuked and refuted him greatly. There is an ijmaa' established on the issue of abrogation starting from first generation of Muslims until now.

This is a clear indication of problems in your thinking and set of beliefs and you seem to be heavily influenced by this kufr modernist thought. May Allah guide you and keep us all on haqq, ameen

and Allah knows best

 

[Humbler_359]

Brothers,

Thank you for explanation, there are forty Hadiths, I am concerned it could get confusing easily on the meaning as so far I know people follow Bukhari and Muslim hadiths.

Are these companions who wrote all forty Hadiths at the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ? If so, why not one Hadith ?

Based on my little understanding, Some people especially Anti-Muslims who tried to contradict Hadiths with Qur'an on the sites? What would I say to Muslim brothers about this in just case? I am confident to respond it correctly but not Hadiths which is my lack.

Your advice is much appreciated.

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Brothers,

Thank you for explanation, there are forty Hadiths, I am concerned it could get confusing easily on the meaning as so far I know people follow Bukhari and Muslim hadiths.

Are these companions who wrote all forty Hadiths at the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ? If so, why not one Hadith ?

Based on my little understanding, Some people especially Anti-Muslims who tried to contradict Hadiths with Qur'an on the sites? What would I say to Muslim brothers about this in just case? I am confident to respond it correctly but not Hadiths which is my lack.

Your advice is much appreciated.

wa 3laykum assalam,

The "Forty Hadith" is a collection by Imam a'Nawawi in which he collected hadeeth that basically sum up the entire deen. Many of the hadeeth that Imam Nawawi collected are recorded by Imam al Bukhari and Imam Muslim in their saheehs.

As for anti-Muslim rhetoric, then ignore these people. Their hatred is reason alone to not read anything from them. As for your Muslim brothers, then advise them our religion comes from Allah and His Messenger, not the kuffar. We wouldn't take knowledge of medicine from a mechanic, why would we take Islam from the kuffar?!

May Allah reward you, forgive us, and increase us in beneficial 3ilm allaahumma'ameen.

 

[Argamemnon]

Salam,

Secondly, Allah mentions abrogations in the Qur'an.

106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things? - al Baqarah

"Verse" in 2:106 is referring to ayat which God made Muhammad forget, and thus never appeared in the Qur'an in the first place.

Moreover, "abrogation" has a broader meaning; it refers to God's continuous adding to and expanding of His Creation. I don't know if I said that correctly in English, but I think you will understand what I mean.

Traditional scholars are wrong.. But since it seems that we won't agree on this issue, let's agree to disagree. I don't like arguing, I believe what I think is right.

Wasalam

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Salam,



"Verse" in 2:106 is referring to ayat which God made Muhammad forget, and thus never appeared in the Qur'an in the first place....

Moreover, "abrogation" has a broader meaning; it refers to God's continuous adding to and expanding of His Creation. I don't know if I said that correctly in English, but I think you will understand what I mean.

Traditional scholars are wrong.. But since it seems that we won't agree on this issue, let's agree to disagree.

Wasalam

According to who?! Please read from the Mufasiroon, al Hafidh ibn Kathir rahimahullah

The Meaning of Naskh

Ibn Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas said that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, "Whatever an Ayah We abrogate.'' Also, Ibn Jurayj said that Mujahid said that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, "Whatever an Ayah We erase.'' Also, Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, "We keep the words, but change the meaning.'' He related these words to the companions of `Abdullah bin Mas`ud. Ibn Abi Hatim said that similar statements were mentioned by Abu Al-`Aliyah and Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi. Also As-Suddi said that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, "We erase it.'' Further, Ibn Abi Hatim said that it means, "Erase and raise it, such as erasing the following wordings (from the Qur'an), `The married adulterer and the married adulteress: stone them to death,' and, `If the son of Adam had two valleys of gold, he would seek a third.'''

Ibn Jarir stated that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh) means, "Whatever ruling we repeal in an Ayah by making the allowed unlawful and the unlawful allowed.'' The Nasakh only occurs with commandments, prohibitions, permissions, and so forth. As for stories, they do not undergo Nasakh. The word, `Nasakh' literally means, `to copy a book'. The meaning of Nasakh in the case of commandments is removing the commandment and replacing it by another. And whether the Nasakh involves the wordings, the ruling or both, it is still called Nasakh.

Allah said next,

[أَوْ نُنسِهَا]

(or Nunsiha (cause it to be forgotten)). `Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas said that,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh or Nunsiha) means, "Whatever Ayah We repeal or uphold without change.'' Also, Mujahid said that the companions of Ibn Mas`ud (who read this word Nansa'ha) said that it means, "We uphold its wording and change its ruling.'' Further, `Ubayd bin `Umayr, Mujahid and `Ata' said, `Nansa'ha' means, "We delay it (i.e., do not abrogate it).'' Further, `Atiyyah Al-`Awfi said that the Ayah means, "We delay repealing it.'' This is the same Tafsir provided by As-Suddi and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas. `Abdur-Razzaq said that Ma`mar said that Qatadah said about Allah's statement,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا]

(Whatever a verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten) "Allah made His Prophet forget what He willed and He abrogated what He will.''

Allah's said,

[نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا]

(We bring a better one or similar to it), better, relates to the benefit provided for the one it addresses, as reported from `Ali bin Abi Talhah that Ibn `Abbas said,

[نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا]

(We bring a better one) means, "We bring forth a more beneficial ruling, that is also easier for you.'' Also, As-Suddi said that,

[نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا]

(We bring a better one or similar to it) means, "We bring forth a better Ayah, or similar to that which was repealed.'' Qatadah also said that,

[نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا]

(We bring a better one or similar to it) means, "We replace it by an Ayah more facilitating, permitting, commanding, or prohibiting.''



http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2938

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Naskh occurs even though the Jews deny it

Allah said,

[مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ ءَايَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ - أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا لَكُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ ]

(Know you not that Allah is Able to do all things Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper).

Allah directed His servants to the fact that He alone is the Owner of His creatures and that He does with them as He wills. Indeed, His is the supreme authority and all creation is His, and just as He created them as He wills, He brings happiness to whom He wills, misery to whom He wills, health to whom He wills and ailment to whom He wills. He also brings success to whom He wills and failure to whom He wills. He judges between His servants as He wills, allows what He wills and disallows what He wills. He decides what He wills, there is no opponent for His judgment, and no one can question Him about what He does, while they shall be questioned. He tests His servants and their obedience to His Messengers by the Naskh. He commands a matter containing a benefit which He knows of, and then He out of His wisdom, prohibits it. Hence, perfect obedience is realized by adhering to His commands, following His Messengers, believing in what ever they convey, implementing their commands and avoiding what they prohibit.

The statements of Allah here contain tremendous benefit, prove that the Jews are disbelievers and refute their claim that Naskh does not occur, may Allah curse the Jews. In ignorance and arrogance they claimed that the sound mind stipulates that Naskh does not occur. Some of them falsely claimed that there are divine texts that dismiss the possibility that Naskh occurred.

Imam Abu Ja`far bin Jarir said, "The Ayah means, `Do you not know, O Muhammad, that I alone own the heavens and the earth and that I decide whatever I will in them I forbid whatever I will, change and repeal whatever I will of My previous rulings, whenever I will. I also uphold whatever I will.''

Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet , He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo Naskh. The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded. Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.''

I (Ibn Kathir) say that the Jews' dismissal of the occurrence of the Naskh is only a case of their disbelief and rebellion. The sound mind does not deny that there could be a Naskh in Allah's commandments, for He decides what He wills, just as He does what He wills. Further, Naskh occurred in previous Books and Law. For instance, Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons and then later forbade this practice. Allah also allowed Nuh to eat from all kinds of animals after they left the ark, then prohibited eating some types of foods. Further, marrying two sisters to one man was allowed for Israel and his children, but Allah prohibited this practice later in the Torah. Allah commanded Abraham to slaughter his son, then repealed that command before it was implemented. Also, Allah commanded the Children of Israel to kill those who worshipped the calf and then repealed that command, so that the Children of Israel were not all exterminated. There are many other instances that the Jews admit have occurred, yet they ignore them. Also, it is a well-known fact that their Books foretold about Muhammad and contained the command to follow him. These texts, in their Books, indicate that the Jews were required to follow the Prophet Muhammad and that no good deed would be accepted from them, unless it conformed to Muhammad's Law. The Prophet brought another Book, - the Qur'an -, which is the last revelation from Allah.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2967

What I don't get is, how do you reject the ayat of Allah, the authentic ahadeeth of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi'wa'salam, the statementso fh is companions, and the consensus of the scholars on these issues?

Please tell us, are you from the Qurani sect?

 

[Argamemnon]

Kindly refrain from speaking personal wishes and innovated laypeople thoughts as statements of fact, it can lead you to great sin and blasphemy. Your whole approach and conclusion of how to interpret hadith is incorrect to start with.

Kindly refrain from considering all traditional scholars as infallible. They were human beings who made mistakes. I don't like your tone.

 

[Humbler_359]

wa 3laykum assalam,

The "Forty Hadith" is a collection by Imam a'Nawawi in which he collected hadeeth that basically sum up the entire deen. Many of the hadeeth that Imam Nawawi collected are recorded by Imam al Bukhari and Imam Muslim in their saheehs.

As for anti-Muslim rhetoric, then ignore these people. Their hatred is reason alone to not read anything from them. As for your Muslim brothers, then advise them our religion comes from Allah and His Messenger, not the kuffar. We wouldn't take knowledge of medicine from a mechanic, why would we take Islam from the kuffar?!

May Allah reward you, forgive us, and increase us in beneficial 3ilm allaahumma'ameen.

Assalamu Alaikum Brother Philip,

That's great comment. Basically, I don't accept someone going to bash our Islam. It is wasting our times and energy.

:wa:

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Assalamu Alaikum Brother Philip,

That's great comment. Basically, I don't accept someone going to bash our Islam. It is wasting our times and energy.

:wa:

wa 3laykum assalam,

bingo

 

[Muslim Woman]

"The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alayhi'wa'salam) stoned to death and the Rightly Guided Leaders too, stoned to death."

Revelation came to the Prophet pbuh during long 23 years. May be , Prophet pbuh ordered this punishment ( stoned to death ) before
the following verse ?


The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes

( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #2)

after the revelation of this clear command , what right do we have to deny it ? If we believe , Quran is the final holy book of Allah and these commands are applicable till the last day , then why we should listen to scholars who say something that goes against Allah ?

(This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allahs Law).



I am not challenging here anyone , I am confused about this matter . When we find a clear verdict in Allah's book , why we should rely on men's opinion , writting and collection ?

Is there any proof that Prophet pbuh carried out the death penalty even after the revelation ? Does it mean we have choices ?

.

Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things? - al Baqarah

.

If in early scriptures there was a specific punishment but Allah later lesser it , how we can disobey His final command ?

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

Revelation came to the Prophet pbuh during long 23 years. May be , Prophet pbuh ordered this punishment ( stoned to death ) before
the following verse ?


The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes

( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #2)

after the revelation of this clear command , what right do we have to deny it ? If we believe , Quran is the final holy book of Allah and these commands are applicable till the last day , then why we should listen to scholars who say something that goes against Allah ?

(This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allahs Law).



I am not challenging here anyone , I am confused about this matter . When we find a clear verdict in Allah's book , why we should rely on men's opinion , writting and collection ?

Is there any proof that Prophet pbuh carried out the death penalty even after the revelation ? Does it mean we have choices ?

.If in early scriptures there was a specific punishment but Allah later lesser it , how we can disobey His final command ?

assalamu 3laykum

The verse you quoted is in reference to zinaa between unmarried males and females. However, this ayat is also applicable to married males and females as well. So the fuqahaa have stated that the stoning is in addition to the lashes.

The ulemma do not contradict Allah and His Messenger concerning these rulings. It is clear from the texts that the unmarried folk receive 100 lashes and 1 year's exile for illegal sexual intercourse while the adulterer/adulteress receive 100 lashes+death by stoning unless pardoned by the qadhi.

Ibn Kathir says about the ayat you mentioned

The Explanation of the Prescribed Punishment for Zina (Illicit Sex)

Then Allah says:

[الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِى فَاجْلِدُواْ كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِاْئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ]

(The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.) This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah . One of them said, "O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son one hundred sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said that my son should be given one hundred stripes and banished for a year, and that this man's wife should be stoned to death.'' The Messenger of Allah said:

«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَأَقْضِيَنَّ بَيْنَكُمَا بِكِتَابِ اللهِ تَعَالى، الْوَلِيدَةُ وَالْغَنَمُ رَدٌّ عَلَيْكَ، وَعَلى ابْنِكَ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَاغْدُ يَا أُنَيْسُ لِرَجُلٍ مِنْ أَسْلَمَ إِلَى امْرَأَةِ هذَا،فَإِنِ اعْتَرَفَتْ فَارْجُمْهَا»

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and sheep, and your son is to be given one hundred stripes and banished for one year. O Unays -- he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam -- go to this man's wife, and if she confesses, then stone her to death.) Unays went to her and she confessed, so he stoned her to death. This indicates that if the person who is guilty of illegal sex is a virgin and unmarried, he should be banished in addition to being given one hundred stripes. But if married, meaning he has had intercourse within the bounds of lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind, then he should be stoned to death. Imam Malik recorded that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, stood up and praised and glorified Allah, then he said; "O people! Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that was revealed to him was the Ayah of stoning to death, which we have recited and understood. The Messenger of Allah carried out the punishment of stoning and after him we did so, but I am afraid that as time goes by, some will say that they did not find the Ayah of stoning in the Book of Allah, and they will go astray because they abandoned one of the obligations revealed by Allah. Stoning is something that is prescribed in the Book of Allah for the person -- man or woman -- who commits illegal sex, if he or she is married, if decisive evidence is produced, or if pregnancy results from that, or if they confess to it.'' It was also recorded in the Two Sahihs in the lengthy Hadith of Malik, from which we have quoted briefly only the portion that is relevant to the current discussion.


http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35488

As for the quote of Imam Ahmad, then if you re-read my post, Imam Ahmad was talking about adultery, not fornication. I hope this helps, wallaahu'3lam.

wa'salamun 3laykum

 

[Muslim Woman]

I highlighted few words , anyone can explain it .

the fuqahaa have stated that the stoning is in addition to the lashes.

but how stoning can be an addition if we can't find it in Quran ?

It is clear from the texts that the unmarried folk receive 100 lashes and 1 year's exile

where it's clearly mentioned that punishment is also 1 year exile ?

Is there any proof that after the revelation of Sura Nur , Prophet pbuh carried out the stoning and exile punishment ? Also , if we kill them , then what's the meaning of this verse ?


Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever ( 24:3)

 

[AhmadibnNasroon]

=Muslim Woman;1245922]

wa 3laykum assalam

but how stoning can be an addition if we can't find it in Quran ?

That is because the ruling was sent by Allah however removed from recitation. Hence the hadeeth mentions it. Remember, the sharee3ah is derived from the Sunnah as well. Not just the Qur'an.

where it's clearly mentioned that punishment is also 1 year exile?

the hadeeth of ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit, who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in the case of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 1690).

Is there any proof that after the revelation of Sura Nur , Prophet pbuh carried out the stoning and exile punishment ? Also , if we kill them , then what's the meaning of this verse ?

Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever ( 24:3)

The ruling on 100 lashes and 1 year exile is for fornicators and not adulterers whose punishment is 100 lashes+stoning. And yes, the proof was mentioned in the Tafsir of the ayat which I posted previously.

Then Allah says:

[الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِى فَاجْلِدُواْ كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِاْئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ]

(The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.) This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah . One of them said, "O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son one hundred sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said that my son should be given one hundred stripes and banished for a year, and that this man's wife should be stoned to death.'' The Messenger of Allah said:

«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَأَقْضِيَنَّ بَيْنَكُمَا بِكِتَابِ اللهِ تَعَالى، الْوَلِيدَةُ وَالْغَنَمُ رَدٌّ عَلَيْكَ، وَعَلى ابْنِكَ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَاغْدُ يَا أُنَيْسُ لِرَجُلٍ مِنْ أَسْلَمَ إِلَى امْرَأَةِ هذَا،فَإِنِ اعْتَرَفَتْ فَارْجُمْهَا»

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and sheep, and your son is to be given one hundred stripes and banished for one year. O Unays -- he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam -- go to this man's wife, and if she confesses, then stone her to death.) Unays went to her and she confessed, so he stoned her to death.

As for Surah Nur ayat 3, then please read here...

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/85335

wallaahu'3lam

 

[Sampharo]

Kindly refrain from considering all traditional scholars as infallible. They were human beings who made mistakes. I don't like your tone.

Yes they are fallible, but how and in which areas they make mistakes individually are automatically seen and corrected by other scholars. You on the other hand is making extremely ignorant statements, so you will be told what is FACTUALLY incorrect about what you said. What you believe is your business, what you say publicly is not, and my tone is appropriate considering your statements and attitude.

Revelation came to the Prophet pbuh during long 23 years. May be , Prophet pbuh ordered this punishment ( stoned to death ) before the following verse?

Sister, do you actually believe it is appropriate to be so unaware of what happened, so unaware of what fiqh prinicpals or methodology or basis of ruling dictation are, and yet use a MAY BE to start making wrong and impossible assumptions and use that to argue against the proven evidence, documented events, and complete consensus of 1400 years of scholarship and authentication. the Kholafa Rashidoon who applied it AFTER the prophet's death?

Your assumption might appear possible only to someone unaware and doesn't know what actually happened, but to not actual evidence: the stoning was carried out after the prophet's death by the Kholafa Rashidoon, his closest companions, pronounced by the prophet beforehand that they will apply Shariah correctly and that we should take their actions as Sunnah as well.

Islamic knowledge is as specific and principaled and mostly DICTATED as any scientific field like medicine or architecture, laypeople's assumptions amount are fundamentaly flawed due to the lack of knowledge. Hadith is documented and the Sunnah of the prophet was ordained by him to be followed, ignoring it was agreed upon by all Islamic schools of fiqh to be impermissible, and disbelieving in its obligation is disbelief in the prophet and takes a person out of correct Islamic faith. Please be careful brothers and sisters.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Yes they are fallible, but how and in which areas they make mistakes individually are automatically seen and corrected by other scholars.

Do u know of any such incidents where some scholars made mistakes and those were automatically seen and corrected by others ?

Sister, do you actually believe it is appropriate to be so unaware of what happened, so unaware of what fiqh prinicpals or methodology or basis of ruling dictation are, and yet use a MAY BE to start making wrong and impossible assumptions

I know , speaking without knowledge is a sin . That's why I used ' may be ' 'cause I am not sure. I am trying to understand why we are ignoring the clear commands we find in Quran and give more importance on the verses those were removed from Quran .

Is there any verse in Quran that says after the removal of those verses for recitation , still Muslims must follow its commands ?

and complete consensus of 1400 years of scholarship and authentication. the Kholafa Rashidoon who applied it AFTER the prophet's death?

Only Quran is 100 % accurate , not the narration of human being . So , how can we so sure that the descriptions where we find that Caliphs carried out the stoning punishment is right ? I really want to know about this .

The easy criteria for me is Quran. When something contradicts with Quran , I hope it's not a sin if I reject that.

Please be careful brothers and sisters.

May Allah increases us in knowledge , Ameen.

 

[Humbler_359]

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said in last sermon "I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

"All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

Who was last ones ?



Proof of the importance of the Sunnah from the Qur'an itself: Source (why follow only Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and NOT just follow the Quran?)

1.Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah...” [4:80] Allah described obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger...” [4:59]

2.Allah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “...And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [24:63]

3.Allah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [4:65]

4.Allah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life...” [8:24]

5.Allah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “... (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger...” [4:59]

6.Allah also calls all people who accept Allah but refute the Messenger as 'Real Kafirs': “Verily, those who deny Allâh and His Messengers and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His Messengers (by believing in Allâh and disbelieving in His Messengers), saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and We have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating Punishment. To those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of the Messengers, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.” [4:150-153]


However,


"They say, We believe in Allah and in the apostle, and we obey; but even after that, some of them turn away; they are not (really) Believers. When they are summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come)....The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey"; it is such as these that will attain felicity." (Qur’aan 24:47-51)

(can you explain this that we just hear and obey but didn't follow? what about our duties in prayers daily? )